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WaPo: School bus driver fired over Confederate flag


Rocky21

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Are there offensive bumper stickers on cars parked in said lot? Other flags displayed in said lot? The Confederate Flag has repeatedly been upheld as protected under the 1st Amendment. How so you ask? By the repeated victories by neo-nazi groups, the KKK and other "hate" groups that have retained the right to assemble, speak and display their signage/flags. This is no different than the Westboro Baptist Church ruling. They can show up and protest at any and all funerals they decide to protest. As much as it pisses you and I off, offensive speech and displays are the very reason the 1st Amendment is soo important.

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Assumed from the headline that this involved displaying the flag on the bus.

But on his car, in the parking lot? (And I'm assuming that, like other places I've lived, the parking lot isn't even at a school?)

I'm with the bus driver, here. IMO, unless his contract has some kind of a "morals clause" in it, (wouldn't surprise me, working for a school district, in a job that places him alone with children), then I'd support him. (And probably even if his contract does have such a clause.)

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I'd like to know the back story.

If one of my employees was doing something like this that I felt was detrimental to the company but easily fixed, I'd give them the opportunity to correct it. And if they refused they'd be gone.

He was told to remove it and refused.

I agree with you,but then I would do the same for someone flying this

mexican_flag_viva_la_raza_viva_mexico_bumper_sticker-p128986883699784515trl0_400.jpg

Of course I'm a intolerant jerk,and probably labeled racist if I did.:ols:

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Granted he's a bus driver and his employer is not totally in the capacity of what I'm about to say, but it might affect my decision as to whether to do business with a company before I even walk in the door. If I saw that in the employee lot, it might cause me to consider his competitor. that in itself is reason enough to ask the guy to keep it at home. ((I would think the company has to warn the guy at least once to not bring it to work before the fire him for it.)

I'm free to express myself a million different ways, but when you're at work (incuding your car being in their lot) then you're not having your rights infringed upon that your employer expects a certain level of decorum.

I wouldn't keep a skinhead walking thru the door to work in his swastika t-shirt. I'd fire him and let the lawyers fight it out. I'm not having my potential customers seeing a symbol that is inflammatory on my property.

If the court forces me to re-hire him, I guess I'd have to, but he wouldn't like his job.

~Bang

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Of course I'm a intolerant jerk,and probably labeled racist if I did.:ols:

The next week is my favorite of the year ... I get to antagonize people about their fake Irishness and when, in my opinion, their stereotypes border on racism. And being Irish, I get to decide what's racist. :)

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I think it's possible that someone flying a Confederate flag on their personal vehicle could be celebrating his American Southern heritage like someone flying a Puerto Rican flag could be celebrating his Puerto Rican heritage.

Nah, flying the confederate flag is celebrating treason. Even if you get away from the racial stuff it is celebrating the secession. The people who quit the Union, spilled their brother's blood and fought against the United States. Was there a Confederate flag prior to the Civil War? I'm for freedom of speech, but it's one of the most anti-U.S. symbols in the U.S. It celebrates our division and almost the destruction of the country by people who wanted to tear the U.S. apart. It's not Southern pride. It's rebel pride.

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a confederate flag flying in the school parking lot? **** him. what a loser.

Just wondering, where are you from?

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 10:51 AM ----------

Nah, flying the confederate flag is celebrating treason. Even if you get away from the racial stuff it is celebrating the secession. The people who quit the Union, spilled their brother's blood and fought against the United States. Was there a Confederate flag prior to the Civil War? I'm for freedom of speech, but it's one of the most anti-U.S. symbols in the U.S. It celebrates our division and almost the destruction of the country by people who wanted to tear the U.S. apart. It's not Southern pride. It's rebel pride.

Secession is not treason. What the South did was not subverting the government; it was withdrawing from the nation and leaving the Union as it was.

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Just wondering, where are you from?

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 10:51 AM ----------

Secession is not treason. What the South did was not subverting the government; it was withdrawing from the nation and leaving the Union as it was.

Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)

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I think it's possible that someone flying a Confederate flag on their personal vehicle could be celebrating his American Southern heritage like someone flying a Puerto Rican flag could be celebrating his Puerto Rican heritage.

Yes, the heritage of hate and bigotry.

Its probably legal though, just like it is to fly the Nazi flag.

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Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)

I don't want to hijack this thread...but I'm curious about something.

What if the South, realizing that had different ideals, just wanted to peacefully leave the Union and be its own country. If they did that without declaring war, would you have the same issue with it? I'm just curious.

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Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)

In addition they encouraged other states (coincidentally the slaveholding ones) to secede as well, and when they didn't they marched armies into those states to remove them from the union through force of arms. Despite Confederate claims of fighting a 'strictly defensive' war. They had no problems staging major operations in both Kentucky and Missouri from the outset. And then eventually there was that whole business in Sharpsburg where men on both sides lost their lives in unprecedented numbers when the army flying under that particular battle flag marched into Maryland.

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I don't want to hijack this thread...but I'm curious about something.

What if the South, realizing that had different ideals, just wanted to peacefully leave the Union and be its own country. If they did that without declaring war, would you have the same issue with it? I'm just curious.

That's an interesting question. I'd probably support their right to do so, but still think it was a betrayal of the United States. Taking arms against your country is treason though by almost any definition and I'm not sure that you can secede without being a traitor. After all, we do swear loyalty on the flag every morning and so those who leave the union are betraying their oaths and their country.

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Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)

You know what I find funny? Marylanders always hold up that they were a Union state. Yet they were a slave state. They did not outlaw slavery until 1864, well after the Emancipation Proclamation. So not only were they a slave state, they were exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation. I know, off topic, but an interesting topic nonetheless. I have always been fascinated by the Civil War and the massive misinformation that is accepted as fact (by both sides)....

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That's an interesting question. I'd probably support their right to do so, but still think it was a betrayal of the United States. Taking arms against your country is treason though by almost any definition and I'm not sure that you can secede without being a traitor. After all, we do swear loyalty on the flag every morning and so those who leave the union are betraying their oaths and their country.

Fair enough...I was just curious. Thanks for answering! Back to discussing this numnut from Oregon!

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That's an interesting question. I'd probably support their right to do so, but still think it was a betrayal of the United States.
Well considering that secession was authorized by the Constitution, requiring a State Convention to vote to secede, I don't see how it could be considered treason.
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You know what I find funny? Marylanders always hold up that they were a Union state. Yet they were a slave state. They did not outlaw slavery until 1864, well after the Emancipation Proclamation. So not only were they a slave state, they were exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation. I know, off topic, but an interesting topic nonetheless. I have always been fascinated by the Civil War and the massive misinformation that is accepted as fact (by both sides)....

It's just a psychological defensive trick. Most of us want to pretend that our ancestors weren't "those" guys. No one wants to picture their side as the bad guys and most Marylanders today believe that the Confederates were the bad guys and what they stood for was wrong. You see the same thing happen today when we distance ourselves from an American wrong because it was the other guy's President who did it or because they themselves didn't vote that way.

On the other hand, personally, my ancestors weren't those guys. Heck, they weren't even in the country yet. :)

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 11:22 AM ----------

Well considering that secession was authorized by the Constitution, requiring a State Convention to vote to secede, I don't see how it could be considered treason.

Well, in that quote I didn't call it treason, but a betrayal. :D

It's just a personal view. I'm fully willing to be legally and even historically wrong. I just believe that if you go into open revolt, disown your nation, and kill your fellow brothers... well, your former nation has the right to consider you a rebel and a traitor.

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Henry you mean you think this is politically motivated? :)

Where does it end? Scouring the parking lot for Pro Choice or Pro Life bumper stickers?

I work at a hospital (privately owned) and they had a supervisor remove a political bumber sticker from her car

because some people were getting offended by it.

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We're comparing the confederate flag to any random nations flag now? Hmmm interesting.

I can easily argue the south rose to defend the institution of slavery. It's not a hard argument to make being that Southern leaders at the time of the civil war have already done all the work. At best I think the flag represents a failed attempt to destroy the United States of America. At worst I think it represents a time in this nations history where brother was made to kill brother in order to keep human beings as property. I don't get the same vibe off of a flag representing an unincorporated territory of the United States of America. Are there any other such areas you feel equate to the confederate flag? Does the little boat in Guam's flag bring out feelings of injustice when you see it?

Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)
In addition they encouraged other states (coincidentally the slaveholding ones) to secede as well, and when they didn't they marched armies into those states to remove them from the union through force of arms. Despite Confederate claims of fighting a 'strictly defensive' war. They had no problems staging major operations in both Kentucky and Missouri from the outset. And then eventually there was that whole business in Sharpsburg where men on both sides lost their lives in unprecedented numbers when the army flying under that particular battle flag marched into Maryland.

+1 to all of these.

The "Southern Heritage" line of defense always makes me laugh. Yeah, the South just wanted to peacefully go their own way and exist as their own self-contained nation. One that still owned other people as property. And this "peaceful nature" would have lasted how long once U.S. western expansion would have picked up?

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Well considering that secession was authorized by the Constitution, requiring a State Convention to vote to secede, I don't see how it could be considered treason.
Can you identify which part of the Constitution says that a state can secede by holding a State Convention?

...I don't think you'll find it written anywhere in there.

I have always been fascinated by the Civil War and the massive misinformation that is accepted as fact (by both sides)....
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Nah, flying the confederate flag is celebrating treason. Even if you get away from the racial stuff it is celebrating the secession. The people who quit the Union, spilled their brother's blood and fought against the United States. Was there a Confederate flag prior to the Civil War? I'm for freedom of speech, but it's one of the most anti-U.S. symbols in the U.S. It celebrates our division and almost the destruction of the country by people who wanted to tear the U.S. apart. It's not Southern pride. It's rebel pride.
Just wondering, where are you from?

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 10:51 AM ----------

Secession is not treason. What the South did was not subverting the government; it was withdrawing from the nation and leaving the Union as it was.

Which means the United States was treasonous to England.

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Which is about as violent an act as you can engage in. (My post above is a bit tongue in cheek, but I think it's also true. You can't declare the U.S. your enemy, say you are breaking away, and be loyal to your nation. That's impossible. They betrayed the U.S. in the deepest way possible. They rebelled. They went to war. They tried to become their own nation. More, they dealt with foreign nations to do so.)

They declared war because the Union would not let them leave. Clearly things did not go as the Confederacy wanted. They hoped to just walk away. You can argue the end result was treason, but I don't believe their initial plans were to go down that road.

---------- Post added March-10th-2011 at 11:34 AM ----------

+1 to all of these.

The "Southern Heritage" line of defense always makes me laugh. Yeah, the South just wanted to peacefully go their own way and exist as their own self-contained nation. One that still owned other people as property. And this "peaceful nature" would have lasted how long once U.S. western expansion would have picked up?

When I see a Confederate flag, I honestly don't think about secession, slaves, or war. Around here, it's just a symbol for the South. You're saying you're Southern and proud of it. When I see people with Confederate flags, I don't think, "That person wants to secede from the US and reinstitute slaves, and he also hates all black people." I think, "He's from the South."

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They declared war because the Union would not let them leave. Clearly things did not go as the Confederacy wanted. They hoped to just walk away. You can argue the end result was treason, but I don't believe their initial plans were to go down that road.

I don't know that I agree. Mind you, I'm mostly having academic fun here. Let's say that Arizona decides to go one step further after saying it doesn't need to obey federal laws and declares itself its own sovereign nation. Do you think that most people will consider them loyal to the U.S. or rebels and traitors? The very notion of divorcing yourself from your parent nation is one that is incredibly extreme and bound to be looked at as hostile and insulting by the parent nation.

If Arizona declared today that it was no longer a part of the United States how would you classify it?

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Can you identify which part of the Constitution says that a state can secede by holding a State Convention?

...I don't think you'll find it written anywhere in there.

At length the Philadelphia Convention was called to frame more effective articles of Union. Rhode Island, which had blocked all previous attempts at constitutional reform, did not even bother to send delegates. Everybody knew that a new constitution would not be adopted by the legislatures of all thirteen States. In order to deal with this problem, the framers adopted Article VII of the United States Constitution says, “The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States shall be sufficient to the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.” The critical debate on this clause was on July 23, 1787, and in this debate the rationale of the framers is made clear.4 In each State, there was to be a convention of the people, modeled after the Convention Parliament of 1689, which could exercise sovereign power to secede from the old Confederation, and join the new Union. And since each State acting by such a convention could secede from the old Confederation and join a new Union, each State necessarily enjoyed the reserved right, by means of such a convention, to secede from the new Union whenever extraordinary circumstances might make such a revolutionary but peaceable and lawful act necessary. In the Virginia Convention of 1788, a young lawyer and politician by the name of John Marshall, who later became Chief Justice of the United States, articulated the principle as it was understood by all, -- “It is the people who give the power, and can take it back.”5 It is difficult to believe that John Marshall actually conceded the right of a State to secede from the Union when the United States Constitution was adopted. Yet he did endorse the right of a State to secede from the Union as an antidote to abuse of power by the Federal government, and the same right of secession was also conceded in those days even by such prominent federalists as Alexander Hamilton6 and James Madison.7
Bolded

It is not specifically called out, but it is clear that if you can join the Union by a forming a Convention and voting, you can leave the Union by forming a Convention and voting.

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