Season Ticket Renewals

[SonnyandSam]

sonnyandsam you make some good points on a regular basis.

but you really defend snyder to the death.

i say this as a person who regularly argues with people about snyder because i firmly believe he gets way more blame that he deserves (i'm believe the man makes enough stupid decisions/mistakes that you don't have to make stuff up to talk bad about him)

it's sad to watch.

You've missed a lot of posts where I have ripped Snyder. The whole debacle over the initial cost of the obstructed view seats and worse, his people putting and charging for seats directly behind huge concrete pillars. I've regularly ****ed about Snyder retaining Vinnie for way too long and not hiring football people who know what they are doing. I've often complained about how poorly Snyder and the Redskins have communicated information with its fans. And I've been one of the leading critics of the ticket office and their old way of handling ticket upgrades.

I agree that Snyder has often been blamed for things that either were not his doing or is about the same as every other NFL owner or major sports team.

And I admit, I often defend Snyder/Redskins a lot on the board. A lot of that has to do with how I approach life and my work. Most of my career has been spent evaluating both sides of issues and policies; understanding both sides of an arguement to determine the correct public policy course to take. A lot of people take knee jerk reactions to thinkgs where I like to consider how a decision affects everyone and not just me personally. So yes, count me guilty if I defend Snyder more than most fans on here. I think a lot of the criticisms are unjustified and even madeup based on interent rumors that have little or no basis in fact.

I believe a discussion about the increase in ticket prices in 2006 is totally justified; but the simple separation of the ticket cost from the tax cost is a silly stupid arguement by people who are easily influenced by presentation. Snyder wanted fans to know the actual cost of the ticket versus the tax. I believe that is a good thing. If you are pissed he raised the ticket prices by $20....have at it.....that's a perfectly legitimate complaint to discuss.

But remember, the invoice that every single season ticket holder got clearly showed the ticket price, the tax amount, and the shipping and handling fee. Nothing was hidden from the fan. The team was totally above board with the individual costs and the total cost of the season tickets.

[capcrunch98]

Was tax ever printed on the ticket??

Link to article

So the actual increase in the cost of the ticket to the consumer was $29.90, but the skins said hey it's only a $20 increase because the rest is taxes. Just forget that those used to be included.

Based on the timing of this, it's pretty clear to me that the Skins broke out the taxes to try to soften the blow of what was upwards of a 40% price hike.

I gladly pay for my tickets each year and I am not "whining" about anything, but I think there was more to this than simply the Skins extending a courtesy to Joe Fan, who "likes to see what they're paying for" according to the PR guy quoted in the article.

[SwampEm]

My problem with the PG County tax being pulled out was it was a way to raise ticket prices 10% and just say "hey it's not the Redskins it's the PG county tax". Why didn't they just do as they had in the past and have the face of the ticket $110 and keep the tax part of the face cost of the ticket? Just seems like a sneaky way to increase their revenue by an additional 10% and try to deflect criticism.

I don't ever recall seeing the PG County tax listed on sporting events elsewhere in the County. When you buy Terps, or BaySox tickets are you paying this tax as well?

[HOF44]

I believe a discussion about the increase in ticket prices in 2006 is totally justified; but the simple separation of the ticket cost from the tax cost is a silly stupid arguement by people who are easily influenced by presentation. Snyder wanted fans to know the actual cost of the ticket versus the tax. I believe that is a good thing. If you are pissed he raised the ticket prices by $20....have at it.....that's a perfectly legitimate complaint to discuss.

.

The cost increase was $29.90. I would have been fine if he'd just made the ticket $110 face and been done with it. The whole break out the tax thing was done as a diversion to deflect the total price increase.

Another thought just occurred to me. Is the face value of the ticket what the teams use to determine the split between the home and away teams? Maybe by pulling the tax out he saved a load of cash he would have had to split with the visiting teams too.

Edited June 29, 2011 by HOF44

[CTennant]

The other very significant change for the season ticket holder was to force us to purchase the pre-season games. That used to be optional. Again, not trying to blame Dan Snyder, or trying to make it seem like the Redskins are doing something that other teams don't.

Is this accurate? I thought it has always been this way.

-ct

[HOF44]

Is this accurate? I thought it has always been this way.

-ct

It's accurate, back in the old days pre-season games were an optional purchase.

[SwampEm]

Quote Originally Posted by SkinsNatsFan View Post

The other very significant change for the season ticket holder was to force us to purchase the pre-season games. That used to be optional. Again, not trying to blame Dan Snyder, or trying to make it seem like the Redskins are doing something that other teams don't.

When was this an option? Who in their right mind would pay more than 20% of face value to watch that garbage unless it was forced upon them? As far as I know it is a requirement of every team in the league.

Edited June 29, 2011 by SwampEm

[CTennant]

Anyone know if the PGC tax applies to premium seating? You'd think that it would, but I've never seen an invoice. Anybody wonder why there is no tax on parking passes?

Could JKC and Wayne Curry have worked a deal around those taxes?

The tax is an admissions tax, not a sales tax, and it applies to every game ticket regardless of seating. This is why it does not apply to parking passes as the ability to park does not give you admission to an event. I don't know the history of this tax, but it is likely that the tax was imposed as part of the agreement to let JKC build the stadium there. While JKC paid for the stadium, the governments paid for the surrounding infrastructure. The tax might be a way to recoup or finance those costs . . . or it might be a straight money grab.

-ct

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 12:37 PM ----------

It's accurate, back in the old days pre-season games were an optional purchase.

When were the old days? Pre-1996? Pre-1990s?

[capcrunch98]

It's accurate, back in the old days pre-season games were an optional purchase.

Geez how I wish it were still that way. For me, having to pay full price for 2 meaningless games (which most of the time I can barely give away) is the single biggest drawback to owning season tickets.

[SwampEm]

It's accurate, back in the old days pre-season games were an optional purchase.

When was the last year that this was an option? I don't doubt that it was optional at some point but I highly doubt it was in the last 25 years.

[MoeRedskins]

The tax is an admissions tax, not a sales tax, and it applies to every game ticket regardless of seating. This is why it does not apply to parking passes as the ability to park does not give you admission to an event. I don't know the history of this tax, but it is likely that the tax was imposed as part of the agreement to let JKC build the stadium there. While JKC paid for the stadium, the governments paid for the surrounding infrastructure. The tax might be a way to recoup or finance those costs . . . or it might be a straight money grab.

It's a straight up money grab. The admission tax is only about 7 or 8 years old. It wasn't around when the stadium was first used.

[RFKFedEx]

The tax applies to every game ticket regardless of seating.

Sounds plausible, but 'every' is a broad term. I'm not saying you're wrong. A lot of tickets printed are given away to sponsors, etc. Who pays the tax if the ticket isn't actually sold?

it is likely that the tax was imposed as part of the agreement to let JKC build the stadium there.

You are correct.

When were the old days? Pre-1996? Pre-1990s?

Mandatory preseason tix came into being in the early/mid 90s at RFK. I don't remember the year, but do remember my dad moaning about it bc he didn't ever attend games in August.

[SwampEm]

The practice of teams charging for preseason games is not new. Check out this case from 1974 http://openjurist.org/495/f2d/1286/coniglio-v-highwood-services-inc . It appears that even then 16 of the 26 teams in the league did require that you buy preseason tickets then. The Redskins were never mentioned in this case so I guess that it is safe to say in 1974 The Redskins did not require STH's to buy preseason tickets.

http://openjurist.org/495/f2d/1286/coniglio-v-highwood-services-inc

[CTennant]

Sounds plausible, but 'every' is a broad term. I'm not saying you're wrong. A lot of tickets printed are given away to sponsors, etc. Who pays the tax if the ticket isn't actually sold?

I should have said every game ticket sold. The tax is imposed on the sale of admission to an event with the price being the base. If the ticket is given away free of charge, the base is zero and thus, no tax.

-ct

[SkinsNatsFan]

I believe a discussion about the increase in ticket prices in 2006 is totally justified; but the simple separation of the ticket cost from the tax cost is a silly stupid arguement by people who are easily influenced by presentation. Snyder wanted fans to know the actual cost of the ticket versus the tax. I believe that is a good thing. If you are pissed he raised the ticket prices by $20....have at it.....that's a perfectly legitimate complaint to discuss.

This is where you're missing the point. If that were the argument, then I would agree that it was silly and stupid. This was not a service to the fans by showing the county tax separately. This was an additional 10% increase to the Redskins above the published $20. And that point continues to be ignored. People are not complaining, just pointing out that the $20 price raise that you refer to here was actually a $29.90 increase. The Redskins received an additional $27.90 per seat per game. You can say that they raised the ticket prices by $27.90, or you can say that they raised them by $29.90, but you can't accurately say they raised them by $20. That's all that's being pointed out here.

[capcrunch98]

This is where you're missing the point. If that were the argument, then I would agree that it was silly and stupid. This was not a service to the fans by showing the county tax separately. This was an additional 10% increase to the Redskins above the published $20. And that point continues to be ignored. People are not complaining, just pointing out that the $20 price raise that you refer to here was actually a $29.90 increase. The Redskins received an additional $27.90 per seat per game. You can say that they raised the ticket prices by $27.90, or you can say that they raised them by $29.90, but you can't accurately say they raised them by $20. That's all that's being pointed out here.

Agreed. I think it's convenient timing that this "service to the fans" was implemented at the same time as one of the biggest price hikes in franchise history. It was done to make it appear to casual observers that lower level Skins tickets were increased by $20, not the $30 they were actually raised. The fact that people are still arguing about this 5 years after the fact shows that to some extent, it worked.

[NatsNSkinsFan]

When was the last year that this was an option? I don't doubt that it was optional at some point but I highly doubt it was in the last 25 years.

I know in the late 80's/early 90's, I used to be able to purchase pre-season games because I went to a bunch of them. Then, sometime in the 90's, that stopped being an option. To show you how many season ticket holders did not purchase the pre-season games, I think I purchased as many as 12-14 for a single game.

[tshile]

and the timing problably lines up with the fact that season tickets stopped being what they were at RFK. The team wasn't winning, and there were 30k more seats available. People loved getting preseason tickets back in the day because it was their one chance to go to RFK that season. That is not the case anymore, therefore preseason is meaningless. why spend your time/money when you can just as easily get into a game these days at face value?

[SonnyandSam]

The tax is an admissions tax, not a sales tax, and it applies to every game ticket regardless of seating. This is why it does not apply to parking passes as the ability to park does not give you admission to an event. I don't know the history of this tax, but it is likely that the tax was imposed as part of the agreement to let JKC build the stadium there. While JKC paid for the stadium, the governments paid for the surrounding infrastructure. The tax might be a way to recoup or finance those costs . . . or it might be a straight money grab.

-ct

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 12:37 PM ----------

When were the old days? Pre-1996? Pre-1990s?

Technically, it is called an "amusement" tax; but your points are valid nevertheless. Frankly, the skins have been a lot more "frustrating" than "amusing" over the past decade. I can't vouch for the tax being on premium seats but I would wager good money it is; and I'm not a betting man.

And I would argue the amusement tax is really more of a money grab since any locally paid improvements have long since been paid many times over. Most of the government improvements (sewer and road) were paid by MD state government.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 03:53 PM ----------

It's accurate, back in the old days pre-season games were an optional purchase.

Now here is something really worth ****ing about. We pay full price to watch a few minutes of starters followed by camp fodder for the remainng 50 minutes. I know a lot of teams do force season ticket holders to pay for preseason games. I wonder what the split is, however. Because a lot of teams do not require their puchase.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 03:55 PM ----------

It's a straight up money grab. The admission tax is only about 7 or 8 years old. It wasn't around when the stadium was first used.

I don't think so. pretty sure it has been on every ticket sold since the stadium was built.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 04:03 PM ----------

This is where you're missing the point. If that were the argument, then I would agree that it was silly and stupid. This was not a service to the fans by showing the county tax separately. This was an additional 10% increase to the Redskins above the published $20. And that point continues to be ignored. People are not complaining, just pointing out that the $20 price raise that you refer to here was actually a $29.90 increase. The Redskins received an additional $27.90 per seat per game. You can say that they raised the ticket prices by $27.90, or you can say that they raised them by $29.90, but you can't accurately say they raised them by $20. That's all that's being pointed out here.

You are correct. I was too quick with my typing and did not think it through. I just used the number of whoever I was responding to.. Snyder increased the tickets price from $71.10 to $99; a $27.90 increase in the ticket price. That caused the 10 percent PG amusement tax to increase from $7.90 to $9.90.

Got no problem with anyone complaining about the big increase; although it never hurt ticket sales did it? So it makes for a good business decision for him and crappy cost increase for us. Making a big deal about showing the costs separately is still silly, IMHO. It is the total increase that makes a difference and not Snyder showing them separately. Frankly, I think all business should show the cost of their good/service and the addon governtment taxes, fees, etc. so we know where our money is going. Why should Snyder take the blame for the $9.90 tax on his product he is selling to us?

Edited June 29, 2011 by SonnyandSam

[CTennant]

Technically, it is called an "amusement" tax; but your points are valid nevertheless.

In Virginia, they are called admissions taxes, but substantively they are the same thing. Six one way, half dozen the other . . .

-ct

[Mark The Homer]

Your premise is factually incorrect. That "$55 ticket" was actually $49.50 PLUS $5.50 in Prince Georges County amusement tax. The Skins just included the cost of the tax. It was always there. You were deceived from the beginning. The "cost" of the ticket was $49.50 and not $55. The $5.50 is a tax. Danny was only charging $49.50 to attend the game. PG County taxed you for the rest.

First of all, PG county never taxed me a dime.

The tax was made as one of the many concessions the Redskins made to PG County for the right to build the stadium there. Another was moving 2,000 PG County residents to the front of the line of the waiting list. Another was granting the PG County Council an Executive Suite for free. And so on and so forth. All these agreements were between the county and the team. The tax had nothing to do with you or me or any other fan.

Secondly, if the price of the ticket was $49.50 as you claim above, then the tax would be $4.95, not $5.50. So, who is confused?

I think it's pretty clear.

The truth is, the tax was itemized into our invoices as a tool to raise prices.

It's a straight up money grab. The admission tax is only about 7 or 8 years old. It wasn't around when the stadium was first used.

If we're talking about the PG County Amusement Tax, I totally disagree. The team has been paying this to PG County since it opened.

Anyone know if the PGC tax applies to premium seating? You'd think that it would, but I've never seen an invoice. Anybody wonder why there is no tax on parking passes?

The tax is $13.17 on premium seating. It's a seat tax, not a parking tax. Edited June 29, 2011 by Mark The Homer

[Popeman38]

Prince George's County Admission & Amusement Tax

[SonnyandSam]

Prince George's County Admission & Amusement Tax

You're absolutely right. I have always seen/read it even in the Washington Post as the Prince George's County Amusement Tax but it is as you say on the PG County web site.

EDIT -- DANG! I just pulled my invoices and all of them from 2006 onward state "Prince George's County Admission and Amusement Tax (admission charges only)". I clearly remembered wrong.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 05:26 PM ----------

First of all, PG county never taxed me a dime.

The tax was made as one of the many concessions the Redskins made to PG County for the right to build the stadium there. Another was moving 2,000 PG County residents to the front of the line of the waiting list. Another was granting the PG County Council an Executive Suite for free. And so on and so forth. All these agreements were between the county and the team. The tax had nothing to do with you or me or any other fan.

Secondly, if the price of the ticket was $49.50 as you claim above, then the tax would be $4.95, not $5.50. So, who is confused?

I think it's pretty clear.

The truth is, the tax was itemized into our invoices as a tool to raise prices.

If we're talking about the PG County Amusement Tax, I totally disagree. The team has been paying this to PG County since it opened.

The tax is $13.17 on premium seating. It's a seat tax, not a parking tax.

Damn...that's what I get for trying to respond on this message board and doing real work at the same time. Should have been $50.00 for the ticket and $5.00 for the tax.

You stated the ticket price was $55 and it included the PG County admissions and amusement tax, correct? So using algebra, you calculate that as $55= .10x + x where x is the price of the ticket charged by the Redskins. Simplify the expression and you get $55 = 1.1x. divide both sides by 1.1 to isolate x(the ticket price) and you get x = $50.

And if YOU buy the ticket, you are buying the ticket with the tax. You can't get away from it. So yes, PG County is taxing your ticket purchase. Danny is just the collection agent. Exactly the same as when you buy something at the store and pay a sales tax. The business is not charging you the tax. They are assesing the tax as required by state law and collecting it (for free by the way) for the government.

I'll respond to the whole Danny was hiding the increase in the detail BS in a separate post.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 05:28 PM ----------

In Virginia, they are called admissions taxes, but substantively they are the same thing. Six one way, half dozen the other . . .

-ct

I stand corrected. Sorry. Popeman is correct. The PG County web site clearly calls the tax an admissions and amusement tax. I had never read the "admissions" part that I recall. I apologize.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 06:12 PM ----------

OK...I'm going to try to take a different stab at this. My understanding is that some of you believe Snyder purposely separated the PG County tax out to "hide" the ticket increase. Which is ludicrous on it's face because the actual ticket increase is huge no matter how you look at it....with or without the tax being shown separately. Some of you really believe that showing the tax separately was a way to hide $7.18 per ticket out of the total $29.90 increase?? REALLY?

So follow me....using LL sideline tickets as the example.

2005 ticket and tax = $79 ($71.82 for the ticket and $7.18 for the tax)

2006 ticket and tax = $108.90 ($99 for the ticket and $9.90 for the tax)

So some of you say Danny just increased the ticket amount on the tickets themselves from $79 (ticket price plus tax) to $99 (ticket price only) so that morons would never figure out that the real ticket cost was $108.90.

You guys realize you are just describing yourselves as morons, right?

But you know what guys? Your whole argument is full of ****. Why? Because NOT A SINGLE season ticket holder pays Danny based on the price printed on the ticket. I looked at my old invoices again. Got 'em right here next to me. The invoices prior to 2006 and post 2006 are the same EXCEPT beginning in 2006 Snyder adds a single line at the bottom under the subtotal showing the PG County Tax. Up above are the "Cost per Package" for the seats, the parking, the FedEx Fee, and the handling fee. Underneath that is the total subtotal for all ten games, the PG County Tax and the TOTAL Due (emphasis added). Nowhere is there any mention of a per ticket price. (I know the tickets are included and I guess they have a price...I don't even recall. I always looked at the picture and my seat location.)

The TOTAL does not change from one year to the next except for the total cost of the tickets. No one pays on a per ticket basis. We all pay the "Total Due". It is an even and perfectly exact comparison from the total due in 2005 and the total due in 2006. The only difference is the tax was stripped from the "Cost per Package" for the seats and put down below to show you how much of the tickets are going to PG County government and NOT going to Snyder.

Really, the only difference is the presentation of how much we all pay in taxes when we pay our season ticket TOTAL DUE amount.

Again....remember....NO ONE pays their season tickets on a per ticket basis. It's the total due and it is totally comparable from one year to the next.

Edited June 29, 2011 by SonnyandSam

[Mark The Homer]

...

So follow me....using LL sideline tickets as the example.

2005 ticket and tax = $79 ($71.82 for the ticket and $7.18 for the tax)

2006 ticket and tax = $108.90 ($99 for the ticket and $9.90 for the tax)

So some of you say Danny just increased the ticket amount on the tickets themselves from $79 (ticket price plus tax) to $99 (ticket price only) so that morons would never figure out that the real ticket cost was $108.90.

You guys realize you are just describing yourselves as morons, right?

But you know what guys? Your whole argument is full of ****. Why? Because NOT A SINGLE season ticket holder pays Danny based on the price printed on the ticket. I looked at my old invoices again. Got 'em right here next to me. The invoices prior to 2006 and post 2006 are the same EXCEPT beginning in 2006 Snyder adds a single line at the bottom under the subtotal showing the PG County Tax. Up above are the "Cost per Package" for the seats, the parking, the FedEx Fee, and the handling fee....

Call the ticket office. Ask them home much tickets are in the LL. What do they say?

They say $99 each. Or $990 each. Whichever.

And if you believe them, you're a sucker.

That's my point.

[SonnyandSam]

Call the ticket office. Ask them home much tickets are in the LL. What do they say?

They say $99 each. Or $990 each. Whichever.

And if you believe them, you're a sucker.

That's my point.

Call DirecTV. Call Verizon. And I bet if you call most any other professional team, they will quote you the cost of the tickets without taxes or fees. It is perfectly normal business. Nothing shady; nothing sneaky. It is a fact of life.

---------- Post added June-29th-2011 at 06:52 PM ----------

And at this point in this really ponderous waste of time discussion/debate....I am done. We need to simply agree to disagree.....and god help us...hope something on the field football related can be discussed soon......