Darth Tater Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yeah, what the jackrabbits don't seem to get is that fans were complaining about the preseason games because of having to pay full price for games that don't count, not that the games were meaningless. They somehow twisted that into fans want more games that count. :insane: They KNOW that most fans have a problem with paying full price for games that don't count, not that most fans want more games. The owners just want to keep the revenue rather than do what fans would really want such as discounted preseason prices, drop the requirement to buy preseason tickets if you are buying season tickets and/or allow non-premium ticket holders to enjoy some of the premium perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Here is a really nice article about the details of NFL Labor negotiations. There's alot more. What is a lockout? A lockout is the "withholding of employment by an employer from its employees for the purpose of either resisting their demands or gaining a concession from them." In other words, a lockout is when an employer refuses to let workers work, and therefore get paid, as a form of leverage. A lockout is prohibited if it is motivated primarily as an attempt to discourage union membership or interfere with employees' organizational rights. Lockouts can occur before or after a bargaining impasse has been reached. Would the NFL owners be permitted to lock the players out? Yes, as long as the lockout is used for the purpose of increasing bargaining power, not to discourage union membership or to interfere with the players' organizational rights. In the event of a lockout, can the owners hire replacement players? Employers may hire temporary employees during a lockout where the harm to the locked out employees is "comparatively slight" and the decision to hire is motivated by a legitimate business reason. The NFL used replacement players in 1987 during the players' short-lived, and largely unsuccessful, strike. Have owners locked out players in the past? Yes. There have been lockouts in the NBA, the NHL and MLB. The lockout cautionary tale, of course, is the NHL. The NHL lost its entire 2004-05 season after the NHL owners locked the players out, marking the first time in North American professional sports labor history that an entire season was lost. The owners' second option is to wait for impasse to impose their "last, best offer" rather than locking the players out. What does that mean? After bargaining to impasse, labor law permits employers to unilaterally implement changes to the terms of the previous collective bargaining agreement. These changes must be "reasonably comprehended" within the employer's pre-impasse proposals -- in essence, this means that, after the impasse, the owners can implement their last, best offer as the new set of rules to govern the NFL and its relationship with the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The owners' second option is to wait for impasse to impose their "last, best offer" rather than locking the players out. What does that mean?After bargaining to impasse, labor law permits employers to unilaterally implement changes to the terms of the previous collective bargaining agreement. These changes must be "reasonably comprehended" within the employer's pre-impasse proposals -- in essence, this means that, after the impasse, the owners can implement their last, best offer as the new set of rules to govern the NFL and its relationship with the players. I wonder how de-certification would effect all of this. That's the players ace in the hole in my opinion. That could open the league up to anti-trust issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I've said it once, I'll say it a million times... With no Free Agency, we would be STUPID not to trade as many picks this year for 2012 futures. Draft picks will have a premium like never before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKINSFAN87 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Wow, this a complete surprise? lol. This kinda stuff will be ongoing until the 11th hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I realize that there are things going on that might not be made public, but from a PERCEPTION standpoint, this looks really bad on both the part of both sides. The average NFL fan has just turned his attention away from the season and has heard that the owners and players had back-to-back meetings scheduled the week after the Super Bowl. Upon meeting for 8-10 hours, they are already deciding to cancel additional meetings? That looks bad. It looks like they are either too far away or neither side is willing to put in the effort to sit through another round of meetings. As I said, having been in marathon meetings before, it could be something much more benign. It could be that both sides have multiple action items they need to accomplish. It could be that both sides proposed numerous compromises that the other side needs to take back to the people it represents. We don't know...but this LOOKS bad is going to continue being portrayed as selfish billionaires arguing with selfish millionaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I realize that there are things going on that might not be made public, but from a PERCEPTION standpoint, this looks really bad on both the part of both sides. The average NFL fan has just turned his attention away from the season and has heard that the owners and players had back-to-back meetings scheduled the week after the Super Bowl. Upon meeting for 8-10 hours, they are already deciding to cancel additional meetings? That looks bad. It looks like they are either too far away or neither side is willing to put in the effort to sit through another round of meetings. As I said, having been in marathon meetings before, it could be something much more benign. It could be that both sides have multiple action items they need to accomplish. It could be that both sides proposed numerous compromises that the other side needs to take back to the people it represents. We don't know...but this LOOKS bad is going to continue being portrayed as selfish billionaires arguing with selfish millionaires. According to what I read on ESPN's wire at the bottom of the TV, it is b/c they are too far apart to do any good. EDIT: I should add that the wire says the main sticking point is, of course, revenue sharing. The NFLPA offered an equal split... the owners counter-offered an equal split minus a $2 billion dollar credit for the owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Plus, LA needs a team in the NFC East, so I can see the Redskins once a year (okay, that's purely a selfish desire that has no logic behind it)... Hey, the Arizona Cardinals were once in the NFC East, so it might happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 According to what I read on ESPN's wire at the bottom of the TV, it is b/c they are too far apart to do any good.EDIT: I should add that the wire says the main sticking point is, of course, revenue sharing. The NFLPA offered an equal split... the owners counter-offered an equal split minus a $2 billion dollar credit for the owners. Thanks...yeah, this is going to look very bad in the public opinion department. To negotiate for 10 hours and then declare that you're too far apart is going to look like quitting. Again, I realize that they've probably held other meetings before yesterday, but 99% of the people weren't paying attention while football was being played on the field. Now they are in the spotlight and should realize that. I hope this works out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I've said it once, I'll say it a million times... With no Free Agency, we would be STUPID not to trade as many picks this year for 2012 futures. Draft picks will have a premium like never before... On what planet will there be no free agency in future CBAs? ---------- Post added February-10th-2011 at 02:57 PM ---------- Leave it at 16 gamesInstitute a pay scale Done Don't know why Roger wants 18 even when the players adamantly are against it...drop the 18 game crap, leave it as is, and institute the rookie pay scale so unproven guys don't get paid a ****load without playing a down That's great except you've utterly ignored the only thing that ultimately matters in this negotiation - that being the percentage of revenue shared. The 18-game shedule is the owner's attempt to increase revenue so when they demand that the players take a smaller percentage, they can counter that the amount received will be the same. Granted, it will be received by players with no frontal lobes, but they will not received a pay cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think they will get something put together, it may take a while though, which means we will be stuck with Phat Al and McNabb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 On what planet will there be no free agency in future CBAs? I think he means if there is no FA prior to the 2011 season. If this drags on long enough, players won't move around prior to games starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think he means if there is no FA prior to the 2011 season. If this drags on long enough, players won't move around prior to games starting. That's what I'm getting at! So draft picks will be at a premium as they are the only way a team will be able to fill holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That's what I'm getting at!So draft picks will be at a premium as they are the only way a team will be able to fill holes. I was thinking that the Redskins should have been focusing on 2012 even last year. You generally get higher picks the further into the future you go, so they should have tried to make trades and accepted 2012 compensation instead of 2011 compensation. However, with the labor dispute, all other teams are probably tuned into this and might be doing similar things. However, we still have the 2011 draft, so it's conceivable that you could trade away some 2011 draft picks for better/more 2012 picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Ok, so I may need somebody to tell me what I'm missing. So far the debate points for a new CBA are: 1. The percetange of revenue each side gets 2. An 18 game schedule 3. A rookie wage scale Are there any other major sticking points? Because I think 2 and 3 are easily solveable due to the fact that, since preseason games are full price anyway, owners are trading 10 home games (2 pre, 8 reg season) for 10 home games (1 pre, 9 reg season) and the vets would see huge benefits from a rookie scale. Of course #1 is going to be the hardest and most difficult fight, with both sides wanting as much as possible. But the owners ultimately have the trump card with that, since most players have proven time and again to be highly irresponsible with their money. You think Antonio Cromartie can sit out a season and not get his huge FA payday when he's got 8 (so far) kids to support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I was thinking that the Redskins should have been focusing on 2012 even last year. You generally get higher picks the further into the future you go, so they should have tried to make trades and accepted 2012 compensation instead of 2011 compensation. However, with the labor dispute, all other teams are probably tuned into this and might be doing similar things. However, we still have the 2011 draft, so it's conceivable that you could trade away some 2011 draft picks for better/more 2012 picks. I'm guessing that you could trade that #10 pick for a 1st,2nd and 4th next year and on down the road for the 41st pick. You might even pull a first from a team desperate enough for that #41, perhaps just a pipe dream. I just feel that since Upshaw is gone, this Smith cat, you know the attorney, is not going to budge and will try to get as close to player demands as possible. The players aren't going to miss having to work and if they are as financially prepared to miss a game or two without a check as they say they are, they may be inclined to hold out into the season just to spite the owners. Remember, they don't get paid unless they are looking for a bonus, either roster or signing. And those that have those clauses are probably not making league minimum anyway and could wait it out a bit longer than the 60% that do make league minimum(who wouldn't see a check until game 1 anyways). What I'm curious about is that if this doomsday scenario plays out and we miss a game or 4, what happens to the Moss' of the world that have no contract? That's what I'd like to know. I assume they'd sign quasi-extensions for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrellsMyHero28 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 My birthday is March 3rd. Dear NFL, All I want for my birthday is a guarantee that there will be an NFL next year. Even though the Redskins will still suck. Love, Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The owners will declare an impasse and impose the last offer as the new CBA. Book it. The players union has consistently stated that they would accept a renewal of the current agreement. The owners are the ones opposed to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The players union has consistently stated that they would accept a renewal of the current agreement. The owners are the ones opposed to that. And that's the whole root of the problem. This CBA didn't "expire" as much as the owners used their "opt-out" clause. The players are ok with the agreement because of how much they're getting, which is exactly why the owners hate it and want out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Ok, so I may need somebody to tell me what I'm missing. So far the debate points for a new CBA are:1. The percetange of revenue each side gets 2. An 18 game schedule 3. A rookie wage scale Are there any other major sticking points? Because I think 2 and 3 are easily solveable due to the fact that, since preseason games are full price anyway, owners are trading 10 home games (2 pre, 8 reg season) for 10 home games (1 pre, 9 reg season) and the vets would see huge benefits from a rookie scale. Of course #1 is going to be the hardest and most difficult fight, with both sides wanting as much as possible. But the owners ultimately have the trump card with that, since most players have proven time and again to be highly irresponsible with their money. You think Antonio Cromartie can sit out a season and not get his huge FA payday when he's got 8 (so far) kids to support? Players don't want more games. They've been serious on this issue because injuries can end a career. More games represents more risk. Couple that with a smaller percentage of revenue, the continued existence of funny money contracts, and the franchise tag and the players aren't going to go for it. The owners to this point have still refused to even show the players union their books. These talks are going nowhere fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 More updated Info..... Jim Trotter from Sports Illustrated relays some very disturbing comments from two NFL owners. Two owners told Trotter that if the CBA situation doesn't get worked out by March 4, then there will be "nothing" until Labor Day. That comes on the heels of news that talks between the NFL and the NFLPA broke down yesterday and were canceled today. The NFLPA is expected to have a conference call with players very soon to update them on the situation. Ditto for the owners. The league year begins on March 4. Without a CBA nothing happens, nothing but more CBA negotiations, and those might not be happening either. Besides taking away the annual free agent derby, no agreement also means no practice, no trades, no player salaries or benefits, no pay for all the other people it takes to run a football team and league...nothing until something happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Players don't want more games. They've been serious on this issue because injuries can end a career. More games represents more risk. Couple that with a smaller percentage of revenue, the continued existence of funny money contracts, and the franchise tag and the players aren't going to go for it. The owners to this point have still refused to even show the players union their books. These talks are going nowhere fast. I forgot about the Franchise tag being a sticking point. Any clues on whether getting rid of that and RFAs are part of what the Union is demanding? I'd have to imagine it is, but of course whether or not the owners want to give up that much power is a huge question mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrecker Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 More updated Info..... If this happens then I really hope the majority of fans totally boycott everything NFL for 2011. I know I will. If it takes until after Labor Day and none of the players have had any practice, conditioning or treatments and no draft picks or free agents have been signed, what kind of professional product could they imagine they will be putting on the field? The owners decided to "OPT OUT" of the CBA. I hope the Fans will decide to OPT OUT of the NFL for 2011. Those who already have season tickets should file a class action lawsuit to be refunded your money because of sub-par performance of the product. You didn't get what you paid for. You ordered Steak and were served hamburger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 If this happens then I really hope the majority of fans totally boycott everything NFL for 2011. I know I will. If .... You're not alone. I already told my wife that i'm thinking about not renewing the Ticket if they hold out that long. Because in essense they will be saying "eff the fans" so in return i will say "ditto"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLiverpool Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The owners have prepared for fan backlash. The players haven't. I remember a report early on that suggested owners were prepared for a year off from football. Now I'm not sure if they're prepared for the fan reaction to such an event, but they could still survive a year. I highly doubt the players are prepared for this lockout, but that's life. What is occurring now has probably hurt some sales already, and we'll see more. Fans won't want to buy new jersey's, sports packages, etc. Local bars will suffer, because many live on the amount of money that is generate by sales during the football season. Things are leveling out, and other entertainment options may benefit. Baseball, basketball, MMA, hockey...they all have gains to be made while the NFL suffers. Fans, we have choices, and my choice is to do what I do in the offseason. Sleep, drink and be merry...and work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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