Thank-You Dan Snyder

[Popeman38]

I don't understand why. My opinion is that Dan Snyder is an awful owner - the worst in the NFL - and he bears the most responsibility for destroying a once great franchise. How am I supposed to ignore my opinion on that matter when I pick up a newspaper and read about his latest petty tantrum?

I can be swayed, but certainly, the weak, pitiful arguments being put forth in this thread that somehow this has "nothing to do with the Redskins" aren't doing it.

Try to be objective about this. Exactly what has been stated here that should make me think otherwise? A bunch of double-talk lawyer speak?

You aren't going to be able to convince very many people - objective or otherwise - that this has nothing to do with the Redskins, the general perception people have about the Redskins, or the negative association people are going to have between the lawsuit, Snyder, and the Redskins.

That's my point. If 2 or 3 people (by my count) have managed to convince themselves otherwise, good for them, but I don't see how cranking up my "objectivity" toward Snyder should affect that.

Remember, we aren't discussing the validity of the lawsuit here, we are discussing whether or not the lawsuit has "anything to do with the Washington Redskins."

I've stated my case, and I think, strictly subjectively, it's a very strong one.

2 or 3 people that are persistent enough to keep coming back. Everyone else avoids the discussion and assembling of the same 20 posters who circle bash Snyder. This is like the JC threads all over again. Core posters who blame the rain on JC and a couple posters who defend.

[Conn]

I don't understand why. My opinion is that Dan Snyder is an awful owner - the worst in the NFL - and he bears the most responsibility for destroying a once great franchise. How am I supposed to ignore my opinion on that matter when I pick up a newspaper and read about his latest petty tantrum?

Because that latest "petty tantrum" (even calling it that reveals your unending bias) involves a lawsuit...one that needs to be discussed objectively to have a worthwhile conversation. There's no other way to debate something like this.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't hate Snyder, or that you should be swayed towards not hating him...I'm saying that your opinion on something like a lawsuit, its merits, and its possible outcome, is useless if you refuse to even make an attempt at objectivity.

What's so hard to understand? If you're going to try to debate the intricacies of something that should be inherently unbiased, like a lawsuit, you have to try as hard as possible not to let your personal feelings about the parties involved get in the way.

If you can't do that, your contributions can't be trusted, or even debated properly.

[Crazy Levi]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't hate Snyder, or that you should be swayed towards not hating him...I'm saying that your opinion on something like a lawsuit, its merits, and its possible outcome, is useless if you refuse to even make an attempt at objectivity.

What's so hard to understand? If you're going to try to debate the intricacies of something that should be inherently unbiased, like a lawsuit, you have to try as hard as possible not to let your personal feelings about the parties involved get in the way..

You aren't paying attention. We are NOT discussing "the merits of this lawsuit" here.

We are discussing whether or not it "has anything to do" with the Washington Redskins.

I, and 95% of the public, think it does. A few people here are trying to convince us it doesn't.

Please try to keep up, and understand what we are actually discussing.

If you can't do that, your contributions can't be trusted, or even debated properly.

[Taylorfan2179]

forget that noise. Screw you Dan Snyder, terrible owner, and a crappy human being.

why on earth would you cheer this fool.

[Conn]

You aren't paying attention. We are NOT discussing "the merits of this lawsuit" here.

We are discussing whether or not it "has anything to do" with the Washington Redskins.

I, and 95% of the public, think it does. A few people here are trying to convince us it doesn't.

Please try to keep up, and understand what we are actually discussing.

If you can't do that, your contributions can't be trusted, or even debated properly.

I know exactly what you're discussing, although I was making a broader point in the post you quoted. You honestly don't believe that the details of this lawsuit effect whether it reflects on the Washington Redskins or not? You don't believe that being able to objectively look at the known facts so far effect whether you believe it actually has anything to do with the NFL team that Dan Snyder owns?

Let me ask you this. If Dan Snyder was instead involved in a lawsuit because someone like McKenna publicly "accused" him of being involved with the forgeries, but that accusation wasn't couched in an article about his failings as the owner of the Washington Redskins, would you feel the same way?

[Butz65]

Owners are always targets - especially those who don't shrink from the spotlight. JKC was a beloved figure to Skins fans but most outside of DC saw him as an arrogant, tyrannical womanizer. He didn't seem to care and neither did I as long as the Skins won.

[Conn]

forget that noise. Screw you Dan Snyder, terrible owner, and a crappy human being.

why on earth would you cheer this fool.

I'm not cheering him on at all. I couldn't give less of a **** whether he wins the lawsuit or not. I just don't think it reflects on the Washington Redskins like many do. Those who do believe that seem to be ashamed by the thought....and if so, their egos are much too tightly wound up in the fortunes of their favorite football team. Which blows my mind, considering how much losing we've done in the last decade and more.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think this lawsuit, or Snyder's non-football related transgressions, reflect on my favorite team at all. But I'm also not the sort to give a **** what fans of other teams say about the Skins. I root for them because I like them, and have a passion for them, and want to see them kick ass. Not because some schmuck fan of another team thinks its cool.

If other people think that this lawsuit reflects poorly on the Skins, and the Skins "street cred" suffers for it, I don't care. That's not why I root for my team. As far as I'm concerned, if all you've got to rag on about my team is the owners poor business sense, then that's some weak ****. The Redskins transcend Dan Synder. Just as other teams' are more than their owners....as long as we're strictly talking non-football things.

If some people can't keep their opinions and their trash talk centered on what happens on the football field and what happens involving football operations, I'm not going to get upset about it. That's not why I'm a fan of the Redskins.

[Crazy Levi]

I know exactly what you're discussing, although I was making a broader point in the post you quoted. You honestly don't believe that the details of this lawsuit effect whether it reflects on the Washington Redskins or not? You don't believe that being able to objectively look at the known facts so far effect whether you believe it actually has anything to do with the NFL team that Dan Snyder owns?

Let me ask you this. If Dan Snyder was instead involved in a lawsuit because someone like McKenna publicly "accused" him of being involved with the forgeries, but that accusation wasn't couched in an article about his failings as the owner of the Washington Redskins, would you feel the same way?

If my grandmother had wheels, would she be a wagon?

[Conn]

If my grandmother had wheels, would she be a wagon?

What I'm saying is, it would be the exact same lawsuit. But you'd have an entirely different feeling about it (judging from your response, or your would have just said "yes, I'd feel the same way").

Anyways, my in-depth thoughts about the Snyder lawsuit/Redskins is above in my post responding to Taylorfan2179.

[Crazy Levi]

What I'm saying is, it would be the exact same lawsuit. But you'd have an entirely different feeling about it (judging from your response, or your would have just said "yes, I'd feel the same way").

Anyways, my in-depth thoughts about the Snyder lawsuit/Redskins is above in my post responding to Taylorfan2179.

My thoughts about this are remarkably clear - I have written them exahustively several times.

Here's several times and one-

This is a petty lawsuit. It is completely unnecesarry, and most likely, without merit (that remains to be seen). All it has succeded in doing is dredging up a long forgotten article. Now, this article is known to the masses.

This has created a fresh wave of hugely negative press on Dan Snyder and the Washington Redskins. Whether or not this is "fair" is irrelevant. It's a fact. Just check out google news.

If Dan had not engaged in this stupid lawsuit, the Redskins would be better off.

It's got nothing to do with the merits of the case, or whether or not it "has anything to do with the Redskins."

Just by the virtue of its existence, it DOES have something to do with the Redskins. Just look at the avalananche of negative press it has generated!

Each one of those stories mentions the Washington Redskins.

I think this is a bad thing. I think Snyder and the Redskins are BOTH hurt by this, and would both be better off if it didn't exist.

It is, as better writers than I have put into words, "another brick in the wall."

And it sucks.

[pimpumd]

If my grandmother had wheels, would she be a wagon?

Much easier to respond in this manner as opposed to actually answering the question. Obviously you have no response to the question, which makes your position look pretty weak.

[Conn]

Crazy Levi, I understand all of that. I don't even necessarily disagree with all of it. See my post #407 in this thread for why I don't care at all.

And pimp's got a point.

[JPCreativelab]

an analogy:

Barack Obama goes to China on personal business. He tries to use chopsticks and fails. He gets pissed and even though its out of character, he goes on a rant about how chopsticks are for dimwits and they should use forks in China like normal people.

it becomes a news item. the US is being called dumb and lazy, insensitive, etc.

Does this incident and the bad press have anything to do with the USA?

Just because Obama made an ass out of himself, on his personal time....does that not make people put down the USA in general?

Obama does not define the USA, he is not the USA, but he is a representative of the USA, and his actions will make peoples views of this country.

EDIT: would just like to point out that i am aware that Obama was elected, and Snyder was not...but its just an analogy

[Crazy Levi]

Crazy Levi, I understand all of that. I don't even necessarily disagree with all of it. See my post #407 in this thread for why I don't care at all.

And pimp's got a point.

I had a point too. The lawsuit is what it is, and I don't care to comment on hypotheticals. Introducing hypotheticals into the discussion was "pretty weak," to quote pimp. I'm not going to waste my time responding to stuff like that, I prefer to stay focused on the topic at hand rather than being misderected by fallacies.

[Conn]

I had a point too. The lawsuit is what it is, and I don't care to comment on hypotheticals. Introducing hypotheticals into the discussion was "pretty weak," to quote pimp. I'm not going to waste my time responding to stuff like that, I prefer to stay focused on the topic at hand rather than being misderected by fallacies.

Fair enough, if that's how you view it. You still aren't addressing my other post, which hits on the reasons this is causing such a cluster**** on ES in the first place...that many people see how the Skins are perceived, and if effects them greatly.

[Rudechain]

Please tell me why the Washington Redskins and the Resdkins logo are the most prominent things on this piece of paper? It ain't the lawsuit itself, but it's the whiney seed from which this stupid lawsuit grew.

Still think this story HAS NOTHING TO DO with the Washington Redskins? Of course you don't.

That would be a load of tripe.

Your basing this on a letter using Redskins letterhead? He is the general counsel of the Redskins, but he is also a practicing attorney.

As i stated before and will state again.

The Redskins are not in the lawsuit. Is that so hard to understand?

I can read the court summons for the lawsuit in question. Do you know who is listed as the plaintiff? ( hint: it's not the Washington Redskins)

The only way this LAWSUIT has anything to do with the Redskins is because you want to make it about the Redskins.

I do understand your dislike of Snyder. I am no Snyder backer nor a Snyder basher. He has done what I wanted and stepped away.

A lawsuit between him and Atalaya Capital Management has no effect on me or the people running the team.

[Crazy Levi]

Fair enough, if that's how you view it. You still aren't addressing my other post, which hits on the reasons this is causing such a cluster**** on ES in the first place...that many people see how the Skins are perceived, and if effects them greatly.

I just read post 407. And I'll respond as I have previously on this matter.

This has much more to do with how other fans feel about our team. I couldn't care less about that either.

The problem is, it feeds into the Conventional Wisdom that the Redskins are a poorly-run organization, one that can't get it's **** together. This affects the kinds of players we get.

Young, hungry, want-to-win players won't come here. Why should they? This place is a cluster F just as it has been for a decade. They'll go somewehere that is run WELL. They'll go somewhere where they think they might have a chance to win, instead of the place that has been a running tragedy for 10 years. We will keep ending up with old players looking for one last payday and don't really care about anything besides their check.

I really believe this. The perception IS important. It gets said on national TV all the time - the Redskins are a joke. You think this really only gets absorbed by Eagles fans? EVERYONE notices it. That goes for players and coaches.

This kind of thing is not good for this team. I believe this lawsuit is yet another embarrassing episode in the infamous reign of Dan Snyder, and in the end, it literally hurts the team, and our abilty to attract quality talent.

---------- Post added February-15th-2011 at 05:11 PM ----------

A lawsuit between him and Atalaya Capital Management has no effect on me or the people running the team.

You are so wrong about this that you almost go right back to being right, and then wrong again. You are that wrong.

The second a single Redskins player or coach gets asked about this, it has an "effect" on the team. It's another distraction in a long line of them, and exactly the kind of thing that the Redskins do not need. Every single story in the national media - and there's been a ton of them - about this lawsuit prominently mentions the Washington Redskins.

It has "something to do" with the team, whether you like it or not.

[Conn]

I just read post 407. And I'll respond as I have previously on this matter.

This has much more to do with how other fans feel about our team. I couldn't care less about that either.

The problem is, it feeds into the Conventional Wisdom that the Redskins are a poorly-run organization, one that can't get it's **** together. This affects the kinds of players we get.

Young, hungry, want-to-win players won't come here. Why should they? This place is a cluster F just as it has been for a decade. They'll go somewehere that is run WELL. We will keep ending up with old players looking for one last payday.

I really believe this. The perception IS important. It gets said on national TV all the time - the Redskins are a joke. You think this really only gets absorbed by Eagles fans? EVERYONE notices it. That goes for players and coaches.

This kind of thing is not good for this team. I believe this lawsuit is yet another embarrassing episode in the infamous reign of Dan Snyder, and in the end, it literally hurts the team, and our abilty to attract quality talent.

I just don't believe that. Criticize him for his tiffs with Haynesworth and McNabb this season all you want, but I think that the cultural changes that Shanahan and Allen are making around Redskins Park, and the steps forwards THEY are making in professionalism, have much more of an effect on how our team is viewed by potential FA, etc., and trumps anything Snyder can do outside of football operations. He's just the guy who signs the check with his golden pen. If Shanahan and Allen get us winning consistently again, and properly build this team, do you really think anything Snyder does OUTSIDE of football operations will effect that? As long as he keeps footing the bill and staying out of decisions, I don't.

[Rudechain]

I'm not cheering him on at all. I couldn't give less of a **** whether he wins the lawsuit or not. I just don't think it reflects on the Washington Redskins like many do. Those who do believe that seem to be ashamed by the thought....and if so, their egos are much too tightly wound up in the fortunes of their favorite football team. Which blows my mind, considering how much losing we've done in the last decade and more.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think this lawsuit, or Snyder's non-football related transgressions, reflect on my favorite team at all. But I'm also not the sort to give a **** what fans of other teams say about the Skins. I root for them because I like them, and have a passion for them, and want to see them kick ass. Not because some schmuck fan of another team thinks its cool.

If other people think that this lawsuit reflects poorly on the Skins, and the Skins "street cred" suffers for it, I don't care. That's not why I root for my team. As far as I'm concerned, if all you've got to rag on about my team is the owners poor business sense, then that's some weak ****. The Redskins transcend Dan Synder. Just as other teams' are more than their owners....as long as we're strictly talking non-football things.

If some people can't keep their opinions and their trash talk centered on what happens on the football field and what happens involving football operations, I'm not going to get upset about it. That's not why I'm a fan of the Redskins.

You know I could not have said it better myself.

I follow the Redskins and not Dan Snyder. I care more about the coaching staff and GM than the owner. What the owner does really has no impact on my following the team and I just can't understand how some people can get so wound up over something that basically means nothing in regards to the Redskins except what I want to attach to it.

And since my interest is in the team, coaching staff and GM I don't really think it matters and am amazed at the energy people put into hating an individual that will not change.

[Conn]

You know I could not have said it better myself.

I follow the Redskins and not Dan Snyder. I care more about the coaching staff and GM than the owner. What the owner does really has no impact on my following the team and I just can't understand how some people can get so wound up over something that basically means nothing in regards to the Redskins except what I want to attach to it.

And since my interest is in the team, coaching staff and GM I don't really think it matters and am amazed at the energy people put into hating an individual that will not change.

I agree with all of this, with the added caveat that its only all true if Snyder continues to stay out of football operations.

[Rudechain]

[/color]

You are so wrong about this that you almost go right back to being right, and then wrong again. You are that wrong.

The second a single Redskins player or coach gets asked about this, it has an "effect" on the team. It's another distraction in a long line of them, and exactly the kind of thing that the Redskins do not need. Every single story in the national media - and there's been a ton of them - about this lawsuit prominently mentions the Washington Redskins.

It has "something to do" with the team, whether you like it or not.

Hardly wrong.

First, the only media coverage I really see is when I look at the local press from the area. Nationally, the story has passed and it's not a hot item anymore.

Second, this is the off season and players are probably more worried about the CBA than a Snyder lawsuit. I do understand where your coming from concerning recruitment, but I don't really think that argument has nearly as much credence now as it would have before Mike and Bruce took over. I would suspect Dan Snyder has very little say in who get's signed or drafted in the upcoming off season.

I just don't see how this lawsuit is really going to be a distraction like you claim. It's probably safe to assume this issue will be addressed once teams are again able to assemble and the players will be informed. I can't see how them being asked a question will be a distraction unless they let it be one. It's a petty lawsuit and they are not involved.

---------- Post added February-15th-2011 at 05:25 PM ----------

I agree with all of this, with the added caveat that its only all true if Snyder continues to stay out of football operations.

agreed. He's done what was asked and put football minds in charge.

[Crazy Levi]

agreed. He's done what was asked and put football minds in charge.

Yeah....just like the last three times he did it.

[Conn]

Yeah....just like the last three times he did it.

Except with Marty, Vinny (Snyder's lap-dog...but uglier) has been involved every time. So this is really only the second time he's given up influencing football operations completely. You don't think its possible he's finally learned from that mistake? I don't think he hired a real GM lightly. The fans would revolt worse than ever if he fired Allen and didn't re-hire another independent GM.

[TheDane]

Every reasonable American will immediately associate "Dan Snyder" with the "Washington Redskins."

Therefore, anything negative that "Dan Snyder" does, will immediately be associated with the "Washington Redskins."

Snyder may not be involved in football operations, but in the court of public approval, that fact is irrelevant when it comes to evaluating the Franchise as a whole. Sorry, that's the hard truth.

The comeback to that is, "why do you care what other people think?"

The answer is, I've had a love affair with this Franchise since I was 4 1/2 years old. Of course I care about any negativity surrounding the unique treasure that once was the Washington Redskins.

Stop the madness. That is all.