SnyderShrugged Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I had better refrain. It wont go well otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think that, for the good of society, the new standard needs to be something between birth (too late) and fertilization (too early). Unfortunately, there really isn't a good, clear, non-judgment-call point of demarcation, in between those events. There is a good point of demarcation...approx 14 days,ten if ya want more specific Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 There is a good point of demarcation...approx 14 days,ten if ya want more specific Too soon. I think that there's a valid benefit to society for the mother to have at least a month to think about it. ---------- Post added January-19th-2011 at 07:08 PM ---------- I had better refrain. It wont go well otherwise. I think it's possible to have a logical, polite, rational discussion on the subject. (Then again, I'm a Trekkie. I have an inflated opinion of the Good of Mankind.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renaissance Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 1. What the **** is wrong with some people? 2. What does it say about our health care system that women find this to be their only option if they don't want to keep their baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Benefit to society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Benefit to society? You don't think there's a benefit to society, if babies are born into families who want them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 My point stands. A fertilized egg can be raised to term. (If you have enough resources.) It it "viable"?A sperm cell can also be raised to term. All it requires are near-identical resources. Is it "viable"? When one of the resources required is another human womb, then I will say no, it is not viable. As defined by the Supreme Court, "the concept of viability, as we noted in Roe, is the time at which there is a realistic possibility of maintaining and nourishing a life outside the womb, so that the independent existence of the second life can, in reason and all fairness, be the object of state protection that now overrides the rights of the woman."The current "it's a person when it's born" is arbitrary.I don't think that's the standard in any state. States draw the line differently, but the Supreme Court has allowed states to ban late-term abortions, and every state has done so to some extent. That is why what the doctor did here is illegal.Unfortunately, there really isn't a good, clear, non-judgment-call point of demarcation, in between those events.Yes there is. It is viability. Sometime in the seventh month of pregnancy, we pass a point where we can keep a fetus alive outside the womb. Abortion should be illegal past that point. There is a judgment call there, but I would trust licensed doctors to make it. There are several states that require a second doctor to be present for late-term abortions that can try to save the fetus if it is born alive. I support those policies, and would be fine with using taxpayer dollars to pay for that care. The mother has abandoned the baby by asking for an abortion, and the state takes ownership at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 You don't think there's a benefit to society, if babies are born into families who want them? false choice Is there a benefit to killing abandoned ones? The time to think of what you want is before you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The "Fetus" a human being whether viable or not. Agreed. I honestly have a hard time not calling a fetus a person, separate from its mother, when it has unique human DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yes there is. It is viability. Sometime in the seventh month of pregnancy, we pass a point where we can keep a fetus alive outside the womb. Abortion should be illegal past that point. There is a judgment call there, but I would trust licensed doctors to make it. You'd trust a doctor to make that call, knowing that all it takes is a crusading DA who knows a doctor who'll disagree with you, and you're facing the death penalty? There are several states that require a second doctor to be present for late-term abortions that can try to save the fetus if it is born alive. I support those policies, and would be fine with using taxpayer dollars to pay for that care. The mother has abandoned the baby by asking for an abortion, and the state takes ownership at that point. We had a Tailgate thread about one such law, a while back. And it was a lot more than that. It pretty much required the abortion doctor to have an entire OB ward standing by, with everything required to treat premature births. When the baby was born, it required the Doctor to pay, in advance, all of the estimated medical costs that it would take to raise the child. If it turned out that the doctor paid too much, in advance, then he didn't get the excess back, it went to the state to pay medical bills of other patients. In short, it was an attempt t make abortions so expensive that Bill Gates couldn't afford to pay for one. I'd have no problem with a requirement that, in case of an accidental birth, that the doctor be required to call 911, hand the baby over, and it's the state's problem. (In fact, I'd consider that option to be the least traumatic option, for the mother, too.) ---------- Post added January-19th-2011 at 07:36 PM ---------- false choiceIs there a benefit to killing abandoned ones? The time to think of what you want is before you do Is there a benefit from not having abandoned ones? And you and I both know that the vast majority, don't think about it. (If they did, there wouldn't be any abortions.) Yep. I'd love it if every couple sat down and spent a month contemplating their actions, and mutually coming to an informed, mutual, decision, in advance. But not everybody's as perfect and logical as me. (And, let's face it. The thinking is vastly different, after you discover you're pregnant, than it is before.) (Or, so I've heard.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 There has to be more than simple greed at play here, I wonder if they stumbled upon a sociopath. There is just too much going on here that's wrong it almost reads like a horror novel. I mean this is just from the first article: Bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses "were scattered throughout the building," Williams said. "There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose.WTF is this about? Almost like he's proud of it right? I can't imagine the common murderer keeps evidence of this magnitude like a collection. Gosnell and four workers were charged with murder, while five others were charged with controlled drug violations and other crimes. None of the employees had any medical training, and one, a high school student, performed intravenous anesthesia with potentially lethal narcotics, Williams said.None of these people had any problem with what was going on or had an issue with performing tasks requiring advanced education and training?Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, made millions of dollars over 30 years, performing as many illegal, late-term abortions as he could, prosecutors said. ... Gosnell charged $325 for first-trimester abortions and $1,600 to $3,000 for abortions up to 30 weeks. Abortions are legal up to 24 weeks gestation in Pennsylvania, although most doctors won't perform them after 20 weeks, prosecutors said. This doesn't add up at all. Millions are a long way away from 3000 a pop. Plus the article says "killed 7 babies" which seems like an extremely low number considering what else is in the article. Some women came from across the mid-Atlantic for the illegal late-term abortions, authorities said. White women from the suburbs were ushered into a separate, slightly cleaner area because Gosnell believed they were more likely to file complaints, Williams said.Racism too! This guy is a hollywood villain."People knew near and far that if you needed a late-term abortion you could go see Dr. Gosnell," Williams said.Few if any of the sedated women knew their babies were born alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were further along, authorities said. This seems a little too convenient and I doubt the reporter here phoned all these women before making this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The Grand Jury report http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf amazing how much has been overlooked over the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 false choiceIs there a benefit to killing abandoned ones? The time to think of what you want is before you do Creepy argument. I'm sure if someone were interested to go down that dark road and argument could be made but yeesh I'm not putting my mind there. Abortion is about individual rights and will remain as such until women don't have to carry children inside of themselves. The only social benefit arguments I've seen are dripping with racism and classism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Oh, Des, I assume that all of the articles are quoting from the same source: The indictment. Which means that they're quoting from what the prosecution claims he did. And I can come up with possible explanations for keeping fetuses laying around. If I work really, really, hard. (He was scared of being prosecuted for disposal of medical waste? He thought that people were investigating him?) Although I'll also admit that I'm feeling more and more like I'm really having to reach and stretch to come up with hypothetical excuses. (Even more than at the beginning.) "No doubt some local fisherman, out for a pleasure cruise, at night, in eel-infested waters." ---------- Post added January-19th-2011 at 07:57 PM ---------- Creepy argument. I'm sure if someone were interested to go down that dark road and argument could be made but yeesh I'm not putting my mind there. Abortion is about individual rights and will remain as such until women don't have to carry children inside of themselves. The only social benefit arguments I've seen are dripping with racism and classism. Including mine? You don't think there's a benefit to society, if babies are born into families who want them? Although I agree with you about it being about individual rights, too. When a woman (and a man) have sex, have they consented to raising a child? An informed, reasoned, consent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Including mine? Yours was about being clear about the line on abortion. TWA was taking it towards the overall benefit of killing unwanted babies. So your statement didn't really fit what I was talking about so no, not including yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I dunno, maybe you read a different thread than I did. I saw about 40 straight posts denouncing this guy in the strongest terms, along with a couple of comments highlighting how difficult the abortion issue really is to quantify (something all of us already were aware of, I suspect). Really? "The women got what they paid for didn't they?" "But the fetus accidentally got born.What do you do? Hand the baby to your customer (who came to you to have the pregnancy ended) and say "Here ya go. You're stuck with it."? That's rationalization of cold blooded murder, I don't care how you look at it. How can anybody read that this sick ****er took a pair a scissors to BABY, not a ****ing fetus and cut its ****ing spine and have to nerve to say "well, is it really a baby"? Come the **** on people. You know, I'm pretty much ****ing sick of the PC tolerance bull**** that the extreme liberal on this board try to shove down peoples throats. They act like because they have a big vocabulary and can string together a paragraph that they're somehow morally superior to everyone else. Thread after thread, topic after topic I try to see where the **** you're coming from but then you come into a thread that talks about babies being forced to be born and then murdered when it doesn't die in the process and try to rationalize it as a "hot button" issue. Since when did murdering children become anything but sick and disgusting? We're not talking about abortion, we're talking about a developled human coming out of the womb and being rewarded with it's spinal cord being cut. Seriously? My niece was born at 7 months old and is 23 years old now with a child of her own. Guess we should have just taken down to the old river and drowned her. People get all bent out of shape and want a Russian girl killed for chucking some puppies into a river but murdering a baby is a hot button issue. WTF is this world coming to? I just don't ****ing get some people. I think I've seen it all. And OBTW, I'm pro choice. I'm a man and don't have to carry a child so I don't feel like I have the right to tell a woman what to do with their own body. However, we're talking about babies being born ALIVE and then killed because they weren't lucky enough to die when being forced into the world. It's sick and disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 You know, I'm pretty much ****ing sick of the PC tolerance bull**** that the extreme liberal on this board try to shove down peoples throats. They act like because they have a big vocabulary and can string together a paragraph that they're somehow morally superior to everyone else. You're right. We should all just make bombastic statements of our opinion as if we're handing down stone tablets, and call people names. That's much better than remaining calm and attempting to speak logically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capitolpunishment Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Murder is Muder! This is no worse than what they do during a regular abortion? Just because it's out of the womb, makes it murder now? I guess that's how liberals think.:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter44 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 The Grand Jury reporthttp://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf amazing how much has been overlooked over the years That is amazing and truly sad... the DOH should have heads rolling for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The time to think of what you want is before you do You mean, like, personal responsibility? GTFO of here. ---------- Post added January-19th-2011 at 08:36 PM ---------- Murder is Muder! This is no worse than what they do during a regular abortion? Just because it's out of the womb, makes it murder now? I guess that's how liberals think.:mad: Oh, and they think it's murder if anyone but a doctor kills a fetus. But not if a doctor does. Just so you're absolutely clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter44 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Murder is Muder! This is no worse than what they do during a regular abortion? Just because it's out of the womb, makes it murder now? I guess that's how liberals think.:mad: Do you always just make stuff up? Is that how conservatives operate? This is not how "regular abortions" are. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Oh, and they think it's murder if anyone but a doctor kills a fetus. But not if a doctor does. Just so you're absolutely clear. Is it OK for me to start pronouncing what all conservatives think, now? Or do divine pronouncements only work one way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thread turning into debate about whether or not this is fundamentally different than abortion in 3... 2... 1... Okay, here's my chance to piss people off from both sides of the aisle. While I do think this is quite different from early abortions, I don't think it's fundamentally different from a late-term abortion where the baby's head is pulled out and crushed. I think Larry's post brought out some great points which most of us would rather not contemplate. I also think this incident is why it would be catastrophic to make abortion illegal. Do that, and abortion won't end, but guys like this will be the norm, and women involved will never come forward to expose him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Is it OK for me to start pronouncing what all conservatives think, now? Or do divine pronouncements only work one way? Go ahead. Act like that would be something new for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Go ahead. Act like that would be something new for you. All conservatives think that, when caught lying about somebody, then claiming (without support) that the person who caught them lying, does the same thing they've just been caught doing, somehow justifies it. How's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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