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Tunisian Revolution and the Middle East


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I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was banned in Egypt?

added

They seem so moderate

http://www.businessinsider.com/muslim-brotherhood-egypt-revolution-2011-1

This is not a Muslim Brotherhood driven thing, this is an extremely diverse group of Egyptians protesting. Mubarak may try and paint it as a Muslim Brotherhood thing but it wasn't.

---------- Post added January-25th-2011 at 03:01 PM ----------

they can protest all they want...nothing is going to happen in Egypt

I would have said so before today, but I honestly think this is something bigger, these are by far the biggest protests since the Bread Riots over 2 decades ago. This is also occuring all throughout Egypt in enormous numbers.

---------- Post added January-25th-2011 at 03:07 PM ----------

Picture from Tahrir scaled.php?tn=0&server=612&filename=nui.png&xsize=640&ysize=640

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Why not?

What more can they ask for? They already have free press and are free to do whatever they want unlike most Arab countries.

To be higher up in their military, you cannot have a veiled wife or be conservative. It is a fairly liberal country, I dont see anything happening besides people protesting asking for better rights/services...but other than that, I dont know what else could happen

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What more can they ask for? They already have free press and are free to do whatever they want unlike most Arab countries.

To be higher up in their military, you cannot have a veiled wife or be conservative. It is a fairly liberal country, I dont see anything happening besides people protesting asking for better rights/services...but other than that, I dont know what else could happen

Freedom. Egypt is a police state, its elite have become extremely wealthy while everyone else has suffered. There is no free press, there is plenty to ask for. Free and fair elections would probably be a good starting point.

Edited by jpyaks3
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What more can they ask for? They already have free press and are free to do whatever they want unlike most Arab countries.

To be higher up in their military, you cannot have a veiled wife or be conservative. It is a fairly liberal country, I dont see anything happening besides people protesting asking for better rights/services...but other than that, I dont know what else could happen

"What more can they ask for?" :doh:

The same guy's been in charge for 30 years and he just arranged for his son, widely labeled his "successor", to flee to the UK. Yeah, what could they possibly ask for?

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I was in Tahrir square all day, just returned home but there are thousands still in there. Streets are on lockdown. The protests were peaceful until the government ran through with a water cannon on top of a troop carrier someone jumped on the roof and ripped it off which just made the protests that much more intense. Then the troops boxed us in shot tear gas. When I left it had been subdued after an attempt to storm the Parliament building was put down with what must have been 30 or 40 rounds of tear gas. Seems like both sides were regrouping for the night.

Dude, you could be sitting on history right there... I always remember an old chinese curse in cases like this... "May you live in interesting times". To quote Sgt. Phil Esterhaus. "Be careful out there"...

Edited by JMS
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I was in Tahrir square all day, just returned home but there are thousands still in there. Streets are on lockdown. The protests were peaceful until the government ran through with a water cannon on top of a troop carrier someone jumped on the roof and ripped it off which just made the protests that much more intense. Then the troops boxed us in shot tear gas. When I left it had been subdued after an attempt to storm the Parliament building was put down with what must have been 30 or 40 rounds of tear gas. Seems like both sides were regrouping for the night.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/25/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Two dead after thousands protest in rare Egypt outpouring

Cairo, Egypt (CNN) -- Thousands of protesters spilled into the streets of Egypt on Tuesday, an unprecedented display of anti-government rage inspired in part by the tumult in the nearby North African nation of Tunisia.

Two people died in clashes between the protesters and police, according to an interior ministry statement. One demonstrator was killed by tear gas in the eastern city of Suez, while one policeman was killed in Cairo by rock-throwing protesters, it said.

Throngs in the sprawling capital city marched from the huge Tahrir Square in Cairo toward the parliament building, according to CNN reporters on the scene.

Demonstrators threw rocks at police and police hurled rocks back. Tear-gas canisters were shot at demonstrators and the protesters threw them back.

I'd be careful.

Are you Egyptian?

If not and you get arrested or detained during a protests, they might claim you're a spy or something. Although I'm not sure they do that in Egypt.

In any case, good luck.

I hope things work out for the best for the people there.

Edited by visionary
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I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was banned in Egypt?

added

They seem so moderate

http://www.businessinsider.com/muslim-brotherhood-egypt-revolution-2011-1

The Muslim Brotherhood condemns in the strongest possible terms this example of terrorists' cynical and callous disregard for human life. It stresses that nothing justifies terrorism, which is aggression against Islamic values which forbids any act of violence and does so without distinction of language, culture or religion.

It calls on the authorities to step up and assume its responsibilities in providing the necessary security around all sites of worship and premises and demands those responsible for this heinous crime be immediately brought to justice.

http://www.islamopediaonline.org/news/muslim-brotherhood-condemns-attacks-against-coptic-christians-egypt

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/25/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Two dead after thousands protest in rare Egypt outpouring

I'd be careful.

Are you Egyptian?

If not and you get arrested or detained during a protests, they might claim you're a spy or something. Although I'm not sure they do that in Egypt.

In any case, good luck.

I hope things work out for the best for the people there.

I am not Egyptian. I am in for the night, too much going on and too exhausted from being tense all day, but right now there still protests going on throughout Egypt (its 1230 here so it seems like its an all nighter).

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/video-of-protests-in-egypt-on-youtube/

here are some videos including a few shot by a friend on mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dl16QnROt4&feature=player_embedded

Edited by jpyaks3
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What more can they ask for? They already have free press and are free to do whatever they want unlike most Arab countries.

To be higher up in their military, you cannot have a veiled wife or be conservative. It is a fairly liberal country, I dont see anything happening besides people protesting asking for better rights/services...but other than that, I dont know what else could happen

Wow, that couldnt be further from the truth Reporter's without Borders has ranked Egypt 143 out of 167 countries on freedom of the press. Elections are even worse/ Some of the anger in Egpyt right now is due to the fact they claimed some ridiculous margin of victory, something like 97% of the vote, which is simply insulting to the people's intelligence.

From the US STATE DEPARTMENT, "The government's respect for human rights remained poor, and serious abuses continued in many areas. The government limited citizens' right to change their government and continued a state of emergency that has been in place almost continuously since 1967. Security forces used unwarranted lethal force and tortured and abused prisoners and detainees, in most cases with impunity. "

Yeah, okay, compared to the Taliban or the Saudis, maybe, but if you're best defense for Mubarak involves comparing him to a monarchy and to a bunch of cave-men, then you have no defense at all.

By "liberal", I take it you mean that as euphemism for non-islamic. Because its not usually considered liberal, in the classic sense, to tell someone's wife how to dress...

This is a good moment to see who the hypocrites are and who the real supporters of freedom and democracy. Democracy can be messy, and we might not always like the results (see Hamas), but this is really pretty clear cut, IMO. I cant think of any way to support Mubarak in this right now that wouldnt come down against the side of freedom and democracy.

Edited by Koala
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This is a good moment to see who the hypocrites are and who the real supporters of freedom and democracy. Democracy can be messy, and we might not always like the results (see Hamas), but this is really pretty clear cut, IMO. I cant think of any way to support Mubarak in this right now that wouldnt come down against the side of freedom and democracy.

Not to get too off topic, but I have to wonder what the US and Obama's response is to this.

Are we picking a side, waiting to see what happens, aiding someone in secret?

What if Egypt has a huge crackdown and crushs the protests completely?

Do we act as if nothing happened?

Personally I have a nagging feeling that not too much will amount of any of this anyway.

But I hope I'm wrong and Egypt ends up either majorly reformed, or much freer, or both.

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Not to get too off topic, but I have to wonder what the US and Obama's response is to this.

Are we picking a side, waiting to see what happens, aiding someone in secret?

What if Egypt has a huge crackdown and crushs the protests completely?

Do we act as if nothing happened?

Personally I have a nagging feeling that not too much will amount of any of this anyway.

But I hope I'm wrong and Egypt ends up either majorly reformed, or much freer, or both.

I think Obama did tonight in the SOTU. He gave his support to the people of Tunisia and "all people who want to live in a free and democratic country." I think that's about as good as you can get. A wink and a nod. If nothing does come of it, we still need to keep Mubarark in our stable as an ally in the region. Plus too enthusiastic of a support from the US hurts the protesters.

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Plain clothes thugs hired by the government are beating protesters but apparently major protests are still going on in Cairo. I saw some reasonably large ones outside the Lawyers and Journalist syndicates before the police tear gassed the crowd and the thugs beat/grabbed protesters. Apparently Suez is a war zone right now, hearing that the police station is on fire and the army is on hand but not intervening. There are massive protests planned for Friday afternoon immediately following afternoon prayers. Definitely a different atmosphere tonight then last night but this thing is still going on.

Edit: Twitter and facebook are blocked in Egypt.

Edited by jpyaks3
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Great news from the middle east, and a huge deal for our security IMO.

Democratic countries generally don't fight one another, and generally don't product terrorists en mass. People who can vote out their officials have a peaceful outlet for dissatisfaction. Democracy in the middle east = safer world.

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Is democracy insured though?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70O3UW20110127

Prominent reform campaigner Mohamed ElBaradei said from Vienna shortly before his return to Egypt to join in demonstrations that it was time for Mubarak to step aside.

"He has served the country for 30 years and it is about time for him to retire," ElBaradei, the Nobel Peace Prize-winning former head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog, told Reuters. "Tomorrow is going to be, I think, a major demonstration all over Egypt and I will be there with them."

Egyptians torched a police post in Suez early on Thursday in response to the killing of three demonstrators earlier in the week, a Reuters witness said. Police fled the post before the protesters burned it using petrol bombs.

On Wednesday evening, people in Suez had set a government building and another police post on fire and tried to burn down a local office of Egypt's ruling party.

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The Muslim Brotherhood condemns in the strongest possible terms this example of terrorists' cynical and callous disregard for human life. It stresses that nothing justifies terrorism, which is aggression against Islamic values which forbids any act of violence and does so without distinction of language, culture or religion.

It calls on the authorities to step up and assume its responsibilities in providing the necessary security around all sites of worship and premises and demands those responsible for this heinous crime be immediately brought to justice.

http://www.islamopediaonline.org/news/muslim-brotherhood-condemns-attacks-against-coptic-christians-egypt

The moslem brotherhood was the organization which assasinated Anwar Sadat for the crime of making peace with Israel in 1981.

Ayman al-Zawahiri of the moslem brotherhood was imprisoned for 3 years and deported by Egypt for his role in that assasination, and subsequently became the #2 man in Al Quada behind Osama bin Laudin.

The brotherhood is among the oldest arab nationalistic groups which pioneered the use of terrorism as an instrument to further the organizations goals. Today Al Quada has made inroads into egypt and the Gaza strip because of the groups roots with the brotherhood.

---------- Post added January-27th-2011 at 10:28 AM ----------

Democratic countries generally don't fight one another, and generally don't product terrorists en mass. People who can vote out their officials have a peaceful outlet for dissatisfaction. Democracy in the middle east = safer world.

:doh: any time you want to quote George Bush on history; check yourself before you wreck yourself.... This is basically a rip off of Immanuel Kant's Perpetual Peace, published in 1795. Now Kant was a smart guy, but kant had the problem that he lived in a time where their weren't many democracies to test his theory out on. Today we know better.

  • The Mexico American War in 1848,
  • the American Civil War,
  • the Boer War
  • World War I.

Overall I would applaud more democracies in the middle east. But I don't think they would be benificial for the United States near term. Democracies are stable, and they give the most rights to their people; all good things which in the long run would benifit everybody. In the short run however Democracies are messy and subject to being manipulated by charletons. In the short run a pan arab democratic movement could spell trouble for us interests and us allies in that region..

So while long term they are definantly adventagous; their will be challenges for us short term.

Edited by JMS
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The moslem brotherhood was the organization which assasinated Anwar Sadat for the crime of making peace with Israel in 1981.

Ayman al-Zawahiri of the moslem brotherhood was imprisoned for 3 years and deported by Egypt for his role in that assasination, and subsequently became the #2 man in Al Quada behind Osama bin Laudin.

The brotherhood is among the oldest arab nationalistic groups which pioneered the use of terrorism as an instrument to further the organizations goals. Today Al Quada has made inroads into egypt and the Gaza strip because of the groups roots with the brotherhood.

The Brotherhood has also renounced violence. The stuff you are citing was 30 or so years ago and even farther back from that (also Sadat wasn't killed by the Brotherhood it was an offshoot), a hell of a lot has changed since then. The Muslim Brotherhood is a social organization through and through there is no militant wing or terrorist wing or whatever. They are basically a political party that is banned in Egypt. Everything before the mid 1980's is pretty irrelevant because they took a major change in direction when the majority of their leadership was imprisoned.

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Might we see a repeat of Iran?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/01/27/2011-01-27_hosni_mubarak_our_man_in_cairo_egypts_protesters_have_grown_impatient_with_us_re.html

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-01-27/obama-poised-to-intensify-u-s-criticism-of-egypt-s-mubarak.html

Obama Poised to Intensify U.S. Criticism of Egypt's Mubarak

jpacks

The Klan was a social organization too:twitch:,sorry If I'm a bit skeptical of a organization of their goals

Edited by twa
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Might we see a repeat of Iran?

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/01/27/2011-01-27_hosni_mubarak_our_man_in_cairo_egypts_protesters_have_grown_impatient_with_us_re.html

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-01-27/obama-poised-to-intensify-u-s-criticism-of-egypt-s-mubarak.html

Obama Poised to Intensify U.S. Criticism of Egypt's Mubarak

jpacks

The Klan was a social organization too:twitch:,sorry If I'm a bit skeptical of a organization of their goals

What do you think are their goals?

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What do you think are their goals?

World peace and prosperity.....thru submission to Allah

sorry,I don't trust fundamentalists

http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/muslim_brotherhood.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

http://www.adl.org/terrorism/symbols/muslim_brotherhood_1.asp#7

n its March 2004 reform initiative, the Brotherhood declared: "Our only hope to achieve progress in all the aspects of life is by retuning to our religion and implementing our Sharia ... We have a clear mission-working to put in place Allah's law, on the basis of our belief that it is the real, effective way out of our problems-domestic or external, political, economic, social or cultural.

"This is to be achieved by forming the Muslim individual, the Muslim home, the Muslim government, and the state which will lead the Islamic states, reunite the scattered Muslims, restore their glory, retrieve for them their lost lands and stolen homelands, and carry the banner of the call to Allah in order to make the world happy with Islam’s blessings and instructions."

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/arabunity/2008/02/2008525185757654836.html

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The Brotherhood has also renounced violence. The stuff you are citing was 30 or so years ago and even farther back from that (also Sadat wasn't killed by the Brotherhood it was an offshoot), a hell of a lot has changed since then. The Muslim Brotherhood is a social organization through and through there is no militant wing or terrorist wing or whatever. They are basically a political party that is banned in Egypt.

Basically the oldest and most influential Arab Nationalist politcal party, which conducted a string of murders in Egypt after WWII while the country was seeking independence from Britian and thus got itself banned in Egypt. Then their role in the assasination of Sadat also got them into more trouble in the 1980's. Then of coarse their is their open call for violence against Israel and that business in Syria the (Hama massacre).

They are a very controversial group. It's true they have renounced violnce since they were created in the 1920's. But it's also true they are associated with violence and violent groups over the years. Most consistantly against Israel.

Everything before the mid 1980's is pretty irrelevant because they took a major change in direction when the majority of their leadership was imprisoned.

Yeah imprisonment will do that to you. I think they also lost Kadafi in the 1980's who was one of their big supporters. When Reagan droped that bomb on his tent he too took a major turn of direction.

Overall you sound more knowlegeable and up to date on the brotherhood than I. If you are saying they have reenounced violence including against Israel; then I'll take your word on it.

---------- Post added January-27th-2011 at 12:51 PM ----------

What do you think are their goals?

They are the oldest and most influencial multi national arab nationalist party. Their stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the (*)"sole reference point for ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community and state".

(*)The Moderate Muslim Brotherhood, Robert S. Leiken & Steven Brooke, Foreign Affairs Magazine

Edited by JMS
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:doh: any time you want to quote George Bush on history; check yourself before you wreck yourself.... This is basically a rip off of Immanuel Kant's Perpetual Peace, published in 1795. Now Kant was a smart guy, but kant had the problem that he lived in a time where their weren't many democracies to test his theory out on. Today we know better.

  • The Mexico American War in 1848,
  • the American Civil War,
  • the Boer War
  • World War I.

Overall I would applaud more democracies in the middle east. But I don't think they would be benificial for the United States near term. Democracies are stable, and they give the most rights to their people; all good things which in the long run would benifit everybody. In the short run however Democracies are messy and subject to being manipulated by charletons. In the short run a pan arab democratic movement could spell trouble for us interests and us allies in that region..

So while long term they are definantly adventagous; their will be challenges for us short term.

Hrmm... not sure what to say here other than I wasn't trying to rip off anyone. I think its pretty apparent that democracy for all is better for everyone (al be it maybe from a long term perspective), and that's all I was saying. Which is also what you seemed to say later on, so I think we're in agreement, no?

Its true that you can find an example of democracies that fight, but the point is about self determination in general. People(s) who have peaceful outlets for dissatisfaction are generally less likely to blow them selves up to make a political statment.

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Well, as a practical matter, the USA tends to support despots in the Middle East who support us and our goals (and Mubarak is one of those guys). Meanwhile, we tend to be afraid of democracy in many Middle East countries because we know that if they are allowed to vote freely, the people there are very likely to elect governments who are hostile to the USA (and Israel), or even elect hardline Muslim theocracies.

In the long run, democracy is a good thing, but in the short run, it's going to lead to a lot of countries run by guys like the Muslim Brotherhood. It's not an easy call from the USA point of view.

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