Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 So, Dj posted something the girlfriend of the Arizona shooter said (I don't like typing his name because too many of these guys feed off fame and I don't want to give them that benefit) Figueroa says the last time she saw Loughner was three or four months ago. She says she does not think he is mentally ill."I think he's faking everything. I think the outburst that he had in class -- I think he's planned everything. I think that he has been planning this for some time," said Figueroa. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...rld&id=7895767 and it struck me that while this could very well be true... I don't think it's possible. I don't think you can be a murderer, you can't coldly pre-plan and execute a human being without being mentally ill. Now, I think you can do it without being criminally insane and I think you can kill a human being without being mentally ill (although I'm not completely sure if that's true or if the act of killing would afterwards cause short or long term difficulties), but I don't think it's possible to murder without something being off... without having some kind of short circuit in the way you process logic or emotion. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dunno. What if you kill grandma so that you will inherit 100 million dollars? You are definitely evil, but your actions are also entirely rational. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dunno. What if you kill grandma so that you will inherit 100 million dollars?You are definitely evil, but your actions are also entirely rational. :whoknows: I'd still say mentally ill personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dunno. What if you kill grandma so that you will inherit 100 million dollars?You are definitely evil, but your actions are also entirely rational. :whoknows: Seems mad to me, but then again my Grandmother didn't have a 100 million dollars. Or Valuing cash that much over the human life of someone related to you should be a sign of mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 predicto made me think and I may have to change my no vote. In the case of murdering someone who has taken you hostage or has been abusing you might disqualify mental illness. I'm glad you posted this Burg because I have actualy asked this among friends as well in the past. good thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aREDSKIN Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The sheriff Dupnik alluded to this in one of his press conferences or interviews. He thinks that anyone who commits a a murder has mental defect. I'm inclined to think that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I voted no but that is referring to being a cold blooded murderer. You have to have some mental defect to kill someone for fun. In other cases, perhaps a murder would greatly benefit you or someone you love but that could still be argued as not being normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnyderShrugged Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? killing in war shouldnt be considered murder, it is war afterall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? I think most soldiers and police officers would rather only have to kill someone in self-defense which isn't murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? I tried to separate murder from killing because of this very question. I think when a policeman or a soldier shoots in defense or because of duty it is different than murder. Maybe in Heaven it wouldn't be... I don't know, but I think at least in the minds of society and the police officer or the soldier they are different. In a grayer way of answering your question... the number of soldiers and marines who come back from theater impacted by PTSD or other psychological is fairly high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? Killing someone does not always qualify as murder, even outside of war you have manslaughter and wrongful death, justified killing like self-defense etc. I will have to defer to the lawyers on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 All sane individuals have one real goal and that is to optimize what they perceive as their personal value position. What is of value is the subjective opinions of each individual. If the given individual believes his own value position can best be maximized by committing murder, to not murder would be insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 All sane individuals have one real goal and that is to optimize what they perceive as their personal value position. What is of value is the subjective opinions of each individual. If the given individual believes his own value position can best be maximized by committing murder, to not murder would be insane. I would disagree. I think many things are prized more than personal value. For example, how many women sacrifice years of their personal joy and pleasure to raise a child and forgo the things they want for themselves. How many men put themselves at risk for others on a daily basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 All sane individuals have one real goal and that is to optimize what they perceive as their personal value position. What is of value is the subjective opinions of each individual. If the given individual believes his own value position can best be maximized by committing murder, to not murder would be insane. See ya later, Granny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Are all soldiers mentally ill? Killing doesn't equal murder in all cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 See ya later, Granny! Granny! And every guy who ever cut him off in traffic or drove to slow or didn't give him a lollipop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 All sane individuals have one real goal and that is to optimize what they perceive as their personal value position. What is of value is the subjective opinions of each individual. If the given individual believes his own value position can best be maximized by committing murder, to not murder would be insane. While I agree with this more than the position that you can't commit murder without being mentally ill, I'll play a little devil's advocate here and preempt a likely point of rebuttal. Your typical murderer is not someone who possesses the kind of knowledge, skill, and/or power to have a good chance of getting away with murder and the consequences of his or her actions are almost certain to include a lowering of one's own value position by any sort of normative standard. Opting to disregard that standard would very probably be considered a sign of mental illness. I would disagree. I think many things are prized more than personal value. For example, how many women sacrifice years of their personal joy and pleasure to raise a child and forgo the things they want for themselves. How many men put themselves at risk for others on a daily basis. Self-sacrifice is often a reward in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I tried to separate murder from killing because of this very question. I think when a policeman or a soldier shoots in defense or because of duty it is different than murder. Maybe in Heaven it wouldn't be... I don't know, but I think at least in the minds of society and the police officer or the soldier they are different. In a grayer way of answering your question... the number of soldiers and marines who come back from theater impacted by PTSD or other psychological is fairly high.Soldiers do not only kill in self-defense. Defense of your country, defense of your comrades in arms, but not always self-defense. In war, killing can be more coldly planned and executed than in any civilian murder case. By law, it is not murder, because we have made a special exception. But psychologically, is there an exception? And if there is a different psychological condition for soldiers in war, then couldn't someone reach that same state of mind outside of war? If a completely sane person can kill for their country, then couldn't someone kill for their family? For their beliefs? For profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renaissance Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The only people who should be deemed "mentally ill" are those who are incapable of knowing that murder is wrong (in the eyes of society) and illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 And if there is a different psychological condition for soldiers in war, then couldn't someone reach that same state of mind outside of war? If a completely sane person can kill for their country, then couldn't someone kill for their family? For their beliefs? For profit? I'd say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The only people who should be deemed "mentally ill" are those who are incapable of knowing that murder is wrong (in the eyes of society) and illegal. This is probably the best qualification of mental illness (from the perspective of murder) in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Soldiers do not only kill in self-defense. Defense of your country, defense of your comrades in arms, but not always self-defense. In war, killing can be more coldly planned and executed than in any civilian murder case. Agreed and can be done on a far greater scale as well. By law, it is not murder, because we have made a special exception. But psychologically, is there an exception? I would say based on what I have gleaned from the VA, that there is without doubt a psychological cost to killing in war. I can't imagine anyone who has served or killed saying it's not a life changing event. Then again, I'm a cake eating civilian. And if there is a different psychological condition for soldiers in war, then couldn't someone reach that same state of mind outside of war? If a completely sane person can kill for their country, then couldn't someone kill for their family? For their beliefs? For profit? I think if you can do that mental calculus that there is something wrong. That kind of abstraction without conscience or consideration is in itself a sign of mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I think if you can do that mental calculus that there is something wrong. That kind of abstraction without conscience or consideration is in itself a sign of mental illness.So when we train soldiers to kill for their country, without giving it a second thought, we are training them to have a mental illness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I think if you can do that mental calculus that there is something wrong. That kind of abstraction without conscience or consideration is in itself a sign of mental illness. Conscience and consideration are very much a part of the equation in any planned murder. The murderer is just plugging in slightly different values for all of the variables than would a non-murderer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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