WSJ: Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

[DjTj]

We're comparing ourselves negatively to the Asians a little too much nowadays. Someone needs to come up with a list of things Americans do well, because we didn't get where we are merely on pure luck. We're not learning calculus in the first grade, but we must be doing something right!

Americans are descended from the most ambitious and most hard-working people from many different nations of the world. Your ancestors did not get here without being seriously tested, and they did not survive here without finding a way to compete with the Americans that were here before them. Asian-Americans are simply the latest chapter in that narrative of American history.

[zoony]

I agree that Asian cultures are different, I just disagree that their approach is necessarily worse. (I also disagree that the Chinese approach is inherently superior, as suggested by the headline, but nobody seems to be arguing about that point). I think there's plenty that western and eastern cultures can learn from each other, and the right mix can lead to incredible success, as it has for many Chinese-Americans in the United States.

well to be clear, I didn't say they were "worse". It's just that when I read a piece of pooh like the one in the OP, I find it incredibly easy to point out that with all of that discipline and structure comes quite a few negatives as well, and I can't resist.

[twa]

Well there's ya another jnhay

We're very opinionated and free to express it.....a foundation for creativity when you learn from it

[Busch1724]

Reminds me of a George Carlin bit from his last standup routine..

[Henry]

Americans are descended from the most ambitious and most hard-working people from many different nations of the world. Your ancestors did not get here without being seriously tested, and they did not survive here without finding a way to compete with the Americans that were here before them. Asian-Americans are simply the latest chapter in that narrative of American history.

How come when I said that you disagreed with me?

[Bootleg]

and also the least political clout

Yup. Their upbringing is why they have the least political clout. It has nothing to do with being a true minority.

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 03:24 PM ----------

At the root of all the backlash to this article has nothing to do with race.

Want proof? Check out LKB's post about Andrew Luck and the Ivy League, and the responses that ensued.

It's no secret. Hard work correlates with success. Sometimes, you'll get someone who's just a phenonom (physically and/or mentally)... Sometimes you get lucky.

But there's a reason that the most successful people in the world are successful.

Whether it be Peyton Manning or Bill Gates or Tiger Woods.

[DjTj]

How come when I said that you disagreed with me?

I said "certainly." I could not have agreed with you more explicitly than that.

Certainly, immigration generally selects for the most ambitious and hard-working parents. But I think there is also something in Chinese culture going back to Confucius, which emphasizes a strict obedience to parents, and an emphasis on education and hard work. Of course it's all a spectrum. Not all immigrant Chinese parents are like the mother described in the article. And the diversity is even greater in China.

But it was an essay question, not just true or false.

[Henry]

I said "certainly." I could not have agreed with you more explicitly than that. But it was an essay question, not just true or false.

Oh you could have agreed more strongly than a one sentence conceit followed by a four sentence caveat. I generally consider that a lead-in to a disagreement. But ok.

[Kosher Ham]

I can not believe what a train wreck this thread has become.

If this thread was simply titled differently some of you would be shocked by your responses.

And bring democracy and whatnot into this ? Really ? Wow.

[zCommander]

We're comparing ourselves negatively to the Asians a little too much nowadays. Someone needs to come up with a list of things Americans do well, because we didn't get where we are merely on pure luck. We're not learning calculus in the first grade, but we must be doing something right!

We are creating shows to ridicule the grown ups by the 5th graders.

[boofMcboof]

That was certainly a troll of an article. I don't appreciate it when race and the word 'superior' are in the same sentence. Like someone said, there are positives and negatives to whatever style of parenting one chooses.

[Predicto]

This style of parenting is very popular in the San Francisco Asian community. Lowell High (our magnet high school) is 70 percent Chinese as a result. The kids raised like this aren't very happy, and some of them even commit suicide, but they are very good at playing the violin.

I like to think that there is a way to raise a successful achiever that doesn't involve: "never attending a sleepover, having a playdate, being in a school play, complaining about not being in a school play, watching TV or playing computer games, choosing their own extracurricular activities, or playing any instrument other than the piano or violin." These are kids, not robots.

[DjTj]

This style of parenting is very popular in the San Francisco Asian community. Lowell High (our magnet high school) is 70 percent Chinese as a result. The kids raised like this aren't very happy, and some of them even commit suicide, but they are very good at playing the violin.

I like to think that there is a way to raise a successful achiever that doesn't involve: "never attending a sleepover, having a playdate, being in a school play, complaining about not being in a school play, watching TV or playing computer games, choosing their own extracurricular activities, or playing any instrument other than the piano or violin." These are kids, not robots.

There are a lot of inaccurate racial stereotypes in this post.

There has been only one suicide at Lowell by an Asian student in recent memory.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2002-06-02/bay-area/17547802_1_dr-david-shaffer-suicide-prevention-lowell-high-school

The statistics show that Asian-Americans commit suicide at a lower rate than whites: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html

Some famous graduates of Lowell include Asian-Americans who are certainly not robots:

Actress Jamie Chung '01: http://www.tv.com/jamie-chung/person/260555/trivia.html

Screenwriter Alex Tse '94: http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-03-13/movies/17214886_1_watchmen-s-tse-david-hayter-alex-tse

And Margaret Cho was actually expelled from Lowell, and she turned out okay: http://books.google.com/books?id=4pNaRbPB6JwC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=margaret+cho+expelled+lowell+high+school&source=bl&ots=IVnz2xiL50&sig=150CQcuQIdfJonEtjaO-0UKPU60&hl=en&ei=7fErTbitCoG78gaaipnWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Don't assume that strict Asian parenting only results in unhappy kids. There's more than one way to raise a child, and there's more than one way to be happy. The OP provides an extreme example, but that style of parenting produces a lot of happy and successful adults.

The idea that these overachieving kids are all depressed and suicidal is a myth. There are some that become depressed, but I haven't seem evidence that it occurs at a greater rate than the general population. The vast majority of overachieving and successful kids become overachieving and successful adults.

[Predicto]

I think you overanalyzed my post, and made it racial when it was not.

My child is applying to high schools in San Francisco right now. In fact, she is taking the Lowell entrance examination in 2 days. I'm well aware of the situation there. I hyperbolized about suicide, I admit. But I have spoken with enough Lowell kids to know the score. Many are not happy, and are champing at the bit to get away from their parents. And they hate the violin.

I was not saying that there is anything wrong with overachieving and success. I do think that there is something wrong with hermetically sealing your child off from the world, denying them any friendships outside of the family and any interests outside of academics. I'm trying to raise an overachiever that enjoys her life as well.

[DjTj]

I think you overanalyzed my post, and made it racial when it was not.

When you reference the SF Asian community, and point out that Lowell is 70% Chinese (which I think is a little higher than reality), you're making it racial.

My child is applying to high schools in San Francisco right now. In fact, she is taking the Lowell entrance examination in 2 days. I'm well aware of the situation there. I hyperbolized about suicide, I admit. But I have spoken with enough Lowell kids to know the score. Many are not happy, and are champing at the bit to get away from their parents. And they hate the violin.

Is that very different from other teenagers? Is it better to be an overachieving teenager trying to get away from your parents? Or an underachieving teenager trying to get away from your parents?

I went college with Lowell kids. And Troy kids, and Stuy kids, and TAMS kids, and IMSA kids, and TJ kids. There is no simple stereotype to characterize them all, and I never saw any reason to believe that they were less happy, or had worse relationships with their parents, than the average high school population. There were more of them that were good at music than the average population.

Maybe I was the rare kid that liked playing the piano. But I do think that putting in the work to be good at it was a big part of liking it. And by the end of high school, I was composing my own music, and by college, I was using those skills to remix music on my computer and to DJ. There were certainly tough times, but the payoff is often worth it.

I was not saying that there is anything wrong with overachieving and success. I do think that there is something wrong with hermetically sealing your child off from the world, denying them any friendships outside of the family and any interests outside of academics. I'm trying to raise an overachiever that enjoys her life as well.

Well, as I said, the OP presents an extreme example, but strict parenting can also produce overachievers that enjoy their lives. The story in the OP does illustrate an important point that pushing a kid to overcome challenges can make kids happy. The best method of parenting is different for every parent and for every kid. A more restrictive method works for a lot of families.

[Predicto]

When you reference the SF Asian community, and point out that Lowell is 70% Chinese (which I think is a little higher than reality), you're making it racial.

I'm responding to a thread about an entire book called "why Chinese Mothers are Superior." How the heck was I supposed to make that non-racial?

Damn, I now know how Honorary_Hog feels.

(anyhow, i was talking about a cultural feature, not a racial feature. You should know the difference)

I admit that I don't know the exact racial makeup of Lowell, but I do know that it is overwhelmingly Asian and that the Chinese community is by far the largest Asian community in San Francisco. Perhaps it is only 60 percent Chinese? I dunno.

Is that very different from other teenagers? Is it better to be an overachieving teenager trying to get away from your parents? Or an underachieving teenager trying to get away from your parents?

How about an overachieving teenager NOT trying to get away from your parents? :whoknows:

I went college with Lowell kids. And Troy kids, and Stuy kids, and TAMS kids, and IMSA kids, and TJ kids. There is no simple stereotype to characterize them all, and I never saw any reason to believe that they were less happy, or had worse relationships with their parents, than the average high school population. There were more of them that were good at music than the average population.

I'm sure they were happy to be away at college.

Maybe I was the rare kid that liked playing the piano. But I do think that putting in the work to be good at it was a big part of liking it. And by the end of high school, I was composing my own music, and by college, I was using those skills to remix music on my computer and to DJ. There were certainly tough times, but the payoff is often worth it.

Well, my daughter prefers to play the harp. Should I have forced her to the piano or violin, as recommended by the author of this book?

Well, as I said, the OP presents an extreme example, but strict parenting can also produce overachievers that enjoy their lives. The story in the OP does illustrate an important point that pushing a kid to overcome challenges can make kids happy. The best method of parenting is different for every parent and for every kid. A more restrictive method works for a lot of families.

I don't think the message of this book is that the best method of parenting is different for every parent and for every child. My impression is that the message of this book is that the most restrictive method of parenting is flat out "superior."

[No Excuses]

I think there's plenty that western and eastern cultures can learn from each other, and the right mix can lead to incredible success, as it has for many Chinese-Americans in the United States.

I can vouch for this. I was brought up in an Asian family (if you want to lump India and Turkey into this group). Just like in the Chinese community, education is highly valued in the Indian community as well. I was lucky enough that my parents received their education in America and came here at a very early age. They had both western and eastern exposure for a long time to be a good mix of both. My sisters and I were brought up with academic strictness but social independence. I could pursue my interests as long as I did well in school and my education didn't suffer because of my social life.

My grades slumped for a while in high school and I got the message pretty clearly. It wasn't pretty.The methods Asian parents use can be awful at times and I certainly wouldn't do some of the things my parents did to my own kids one day. But I think eventually, in the long run, they made me a better person.

But I've also seen within my extended family what a rather strict up bringing can do. Some of my cousins lack a sense of individuality. I feel bad for them but I know that the culture of Asian Indian and Turkish families is changing not only in the US, but in the native countries as well. IMO people from my generation in both countries will be a lot more liberal with their kids. Even the Asian parents I know off in the US within my family or within my friends circle are nearly not as strict as the article suggests.

[DjTj]

I'm responding to a thread about an entire book called "why Chinese Mothers are Superior." How the heck was I supposed to make that non-racial?

Damn, I now know how Honorary_Hog feels.

(anyhow, i was talking about a cultural feature, not a racial feature. You should know the difference)

I'll give you a pass, but if this thread were about black parenting in inner city schools, I think people would have been a lot more careful about what they claimed was a "cultural feature."

I admit that I don't know the exact racial makeup of Lowell, but I do know that it is overwhelmingly Asian and that the Chinese community is by far the largest Asian community in San Francisco. Perhaps it is only 60 percent Chinese? I dunno.

The most recent available statistics (2008-09) are 52% Chinese. 60% Asian.

http://orb.sfusd.edu/profile/prfl-697.htm

How about an overachieving teenager NOT trying to get away from your parents? :whoknows:

That's what every parent wants, but I think it's not attainable for everyone.

I'm sure they were happy to be away at college.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of all college kids are happy to be in college. But I would actually say that many of the highest achieving kids are very close with their parents. This is probably more true for those that did not go to magnet schools, because at your neighborhood school, overachievers can be outcasts, and your parents can be your only friends. I don't really have any hard data for peoples' relationships with their parents, but it never struck me as particularly different from the norm. I felt like magnet kids had an easier time relating with their peers in college (at an elite college), because they spent their time in high school with academic peers in high school rather than as an outcast.

Well, my daughter prefers to play the harp. Should I have forced her to the piano or violin, as recommended by the author of this book?

No. Harp is qualitatively the same as the piano or violin. I actually don't understand the "piano of violin" advice, except for the fact that having all kids playing those instruments makes it easier for them to compete against each other. I suppose they are the instruments most likely to lead to an actual career in classical music, but that's not usually what the parents are shooting for.

I don't think the message of this book is that the best method of parenting is different for every parent and for every child. My impression is that the message of this book is that the most restrictive method of parenting is flat out "superior."

You would be wrong about the book, as was pointed out in the second post in this thread:

Dear Christine: Thank you for taking the time to write me, and I'm so sorry about your sister. I did not choose the title of the WSJ excerpt, and I don't believe that there is only one good way of raising children. The actual book is more nuanced, and much of it is about my decision to retreat from the "strict Chinese immigrant" model.

Best of luck to you,

Amy Chua

http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal

Blame the heartless conservative editors of the Wall Street Journal, not the author of the book.

[Predicto]

I do think there is a happy median, and I admit that the ultra-controlling methods described in this article are far better than allowing your kids to run completely wild.

I still think kids can be allowed to go on playdates and choose some of their own extracurricular activities without disrespecting their parents or taking from them the will to achieve.

---------- Post added January-11th-2011 at 01:36 AM ----------

I'll give you a pass, but if this thread were about black parenting in inner city schools, I think people would have been a lot more careful about what they claimed was a "cultural feature."

I would hope you would give me a pass, given that you yourself talked about "something in Chinese culture going back to Confucius, which emphasizes a strict obedience to parents, and an emphasis on education and hard work" earlier in the thread.

The most recent available statistics (2008-09) are 52% Chinese. 60% Asian.

Fair enough. The wiki site tells me that white, African-American, Latino and American Indians collectively make up just less less than 25 percent of the student body. It may be possible that there are a lot of Muslims and Hindus there, but I don't think so. And many are "decline to state." So I'm guessing it is somewhere between 60 and 75 percent Asian, and somewhere between 52 and 67 percent Chinese.

That's what every parent wants, but I think it's not attainable for everyone.

Agreed. As presented, this article suggests that it is not even something to strive for.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of all college kids are happy to be in college. But I would actually say that many of the highest achieving kids are very close with their parents. This is probably more true for those that did not go to magnet schools, because at your neighborhood school, overachievers can be outcasts, and your parents can be your only friends.

Your parents are particularly likely to be your only friends if your parents don't let you develop any friendships - because they don't allow you any playdates, or any extracurricular activities, and they grab you from school at the end of the day and sequester you in the house to study and practice violin. Many of these kids are not allowed to go anywhere or do anything else. Ever.

I don't really have any hard data for peoples' relationships with their parents, but it never struck me as particularly different from the norm. I felt like magnet kids had an easier time relating with their peers in college (at an elite college), because they spent their time in high school with academic peers in high school rather than as an outcast.

Smart kids don't have to be outcasts. Especially at a school like Lowell, which is packed with smart kids. For many, being an outcast is a choice - a choice made by their parents.

No. Harp is qualitatively the same as the piano or violin. I actually don't understand the "piano of violin" advice, except for the fact that having all kids playing those instruments makes it easier for them to compete against each other. I suppose they are the instruments most likely to lead to an actual career in classical music, but that's not usually what the parents are shooting for.

No. The parents mostly are shooting for college admissions officers with the instrument stuff.

You would be wrong about the book, as was pointed out in the second post in this thread:

Dear Christine: Thank you for taking the time to write me, and I'm so sorry about your sister. I did not choose the title of the WSJ excerpt, and I don't believe that there is only one good way of raising children. The actual book is more nuanced, and much of it is about my decision to retreat from the "strict Chinese immigrant" model.

Best of luck to you,

Amy Chua

http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal

Blame the heartless conservative editors of the Wall Street Journal, not the author of the book.

Works for me. I have no problem ripping into those guys.

[zoony]

Smart kids don't have to be outcasts. Especially at a school like Lowell, which is packed with smart kids. For many, being an outcast is a choice - a choice made by their parents.

And we all know that being an akward social outcast with an inherent fear of authority translates to professional success.

I bet if you took a cross section of entrepreneurs, CEOs, business leaders, politicians, community activists, innovators, etc... you'd find that they all cannot relate to people, do whatever they're told, and play a mean violin.

:jerk:

.....

[Kosher Ham]

These broad strokes are not entirely accurate either.

I would be willing to bet that if you took this cross section, a very select few were big into the school plays (hell most actors were nerds in HS, football or basketball stars, played electric guitar in a garage band, etc.

[zoony]

And for the record DJTJ, so there is no misunderstanding, I have an incredible amount of respect for the Asian community in this country. There is quite a bit to admire- strong family structures, commitment to hard work, and some really good food.

But it's hard not to be a little bit insulted when reading articles like this, or encountering Asians who feel they are superior to indigenous American populations. (there are several who feel this way. I used to work with an Asian lady who was disowned by her mother for marrying a white man. If she'd married a black man I suspect her family would have put a contract out on her).

Especially when they had to move to this country in order to get their chance because their home countries are so unbelievably dysfunctional

[DjTj]

Your parents are particularly likely to be your only friends if your parents don't let you develop any friendships - because they don't allow you any playdates, or any extracurricular activities, and they grab you from school at the end of the day and sequester you in the house to study and practice violin. Many of these kids are not allowed to go anywhere or do anything else. Ever.

I went to school with many kids like this, and they don't all turn out to be socially awkward adults.

Smart kids don't have to be outcasts. Especially at a school like Lowell, which is packed with smart kids. For many, being an outcast is a choice - a choice made by their parents.

At schools like Lowell, these kids are not outcasts. They make friends with each other. They eat lunch together. They gossip during orchestra practice. They write on each others' Facebook walls. They don't get out to watch movies, and they don't go to parties, and they don't play sports, but their friends are in a similar situation, so they all have a social life together.

No. The parents mostly are shooting for college admissions officers with the instrument stuff.

If it's about college admissions, then it's stupid, because playing an instrument is worth maybe one essay on an admissions application, and it will only rally help if you are actually passionate about it. In my experience, it's much more about competing against your friends' children than it is about any kind of real tangible benefit. It's the same reason some fathers push their sons to excel in sports.

And we all know that being an akward social outcast with an inherent fear of authority translates to professional success.

I bet if you took a cross section of entrepreneurs, CEOs, business leaders, politicians, community activists, innovators, etc... you'd find that they all cannot relate to people, do whatever they're told, and play a mean violin.

But the bottom line is that these kids do not typically grow up to be adults that cannot relate to people, they don't simply do what they're told, and they usually forget how to play the violin. What you learn during childhood is just basic training, and when you go off to college, there is still a lot of time to pick up the things that you may have missed.

I would argue that it's a lot easier to learn how to make friends than it is to learn Calculus. And the way people make friends as adults is different from how people make friends in childhood anyways. Are the popular kids in high school really the most successful adults? Are they the CEOs, business leaders, politicians, community activists, and innovators?

I'll be that the nerds in high school are, on average, more successful than the popular kids.

And for the record DJTJ, so there is no misunderstanding, I have an incredible amount of respect for the Asian community in this country. There is quite a bit to admire- strong family structures, commitment to hard work, and some really good food.

But it's hard not to be a little bit insulted when reading articles like this, or encountering Asians who feel they are superior to indigenous American populations. (there are several who feel this way. I used to work with an Asian lady who was disowned by her mother for marrying a white man. If she'd married a black man I suspect her family would have put a contract out on her).

Isn't that the plot to West Side Story? Immigrant family disowns daughter for marrying white man is a plotline that certainly predates Asians in America.

Especially when they had to move to this country in order to get their chance because their home countries are so unbelievably dysfunctional

And why did your ancestors move here? Because it was so great in Europe? Or had they run out of potatoes, or banned your religion, or fought a world war or something. America was built by individuals leaving dysfunctional countries. We declared independence from a dysfunctional country. But we've also done a very good job of incorporating the best things from each of our dysfunctional homelands to create something better. Asian immigrants don't really have attitudes that are any different from previous waves of immigrants. And by all accounts, they are actually assimilating faster than most other immigrant groups. It's just the same cycle as previous generations, just with different colored skin.

[zoony]

And why did your ancestors move here? Because it was so great in Europe?

Then again, I'm not writing articles "Why Caucasian Mothers Are Superior", am I?

Which is, in fact, the entire point.

[DjTj]

Then again, I'm not writing articles "Why Caucasian Mothers Are Superior", am I?

Which is, in fact, the entire point.

For the record, Chinese people aren't writing those articles either (although I admit I don't know the race of the editor of the WSJ op-ed pages).

Dear Christine: Thank you for taking the time to write me, and I'm so sorry about your sister. I did not choose the title of the WSJ excerpt, and I don't believe that there is only one good way of raising children. The actual book is more nuanced, and much of it is about my decision to retreat from the "strict Chinese immigrant" model.

Best of luck to you,

Amy Chua

http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal