McNabb is on pace to throw for 4,200 yards this year.

[Frostx08]

Perhaps. But I haven't seen a single thing from McNabb that warrants a 2nd rounder + another pick. Nothing. I haven't seen him ignite this team with leadership, I haven't seen him make a huge play to help us turn a game around. I've seen several mistakes that cost us drives, though.

We could have stunk just as bad with Rex Grossman.

So no, I don't feel like I'm getting carried away at all. McNabb may still be talented enough to quarterback a good team to big places. He's not good enough to quarterback a bad team anywhere.

And that's exactly why this probably is pointless. It's fair to criticize McNabb, but you even got carried away in this post. McNabb hasn't always looked like he should, but all those "Nevers" or "Haven'ts you got there are key examples of getting carried away

Besides that, I would agree that McNabb is not in his prime where he could carry a bad team by himself. Except...more often than not when QBs struggle on bad teams most people suggest building some pieces around. The same logic doesn't seem to apply here

---------- Post added December-7th-2010 at 12:55 AM ----------

This is the main reason why Oldfan was against McNabb coming here (besides the team-building implications, of course), and why he doesn't like those kinds of "explosive" offenses...because they can't control the clock or be consistent, and they don't allow your defense to stay off the field and rest up.

Looking back now, I see his point even more clearly than I did then. Its painful watching this type of production.

You need a running game to control the clock. In addition to that you need YAC players. We have neither. In Philly McNabb was the General of the offense...meaning they had no balance on offense. McNabb has been good with Moss & Cooley...both short to mid yardage players

[mistertim]

7.21 puts him at 15, and theres a few guys ahead of him with about half the attempts. while its not top 10 status, its far from putrid.

7.2 is pretty much middle of the pack, yeah. But I agree with the poster you quoted insofar as you have to put that in with the crappy TD/INT numbers, etc. One of the reasons he has a decent YPA is he goes deep quite a bit (though sometimes into bad coverage with...undesirable results). He isn't a bad QB, but I've never thought of him as a great or elite QB. Mostly just "very good", if not inconsistent. But he is 34 now and doesn't seem to have it like he used to. Wouldn't be a problem if he was released and we grabbed him...but we gave up a high 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder now for him. Far from worth it, IMO.

[Conn]

7.2 is pretty much middle of the pack, yeah. But I agree with the poster you quoted insofar as you have to put that in with the crappy TD/INT numbers, etc. One of the reasons he has a decent YPA is he goes deep quite a bit (though sometimes into bad coverage with...undesirable results). He isn't a bad QB, but I've never thought of him as a great or elite QB. Mostly just "very good", if not inconsistent. But he is 34 now and doesn't seem to have it like he used to. Wouldn't be a problem if he was released and we grabbed him...but we gave up a high 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder now for him. Far from worth it, IMO.

Well, he won't be making the probowl this year, so technically we gave up that 2nd a high 4th rounder for him. And a high 3rd for Brown.

But your point stands.

[mistertim]

Well, he won't be making the probowl this year, so technically we gave up that 2nd a high 4th rounder for him. And a high 3rd for Brown.

But your point stands.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, forgot that was one of the stipulations. But yeah, still not worth it. Oh well.

[KDawg]

And that's exactly why this probably is pointless. It's fair to criticize McNabb, but you even got carried away in this post. McNabb hasn't always looked like he should, but all those "Nevers" or "Haven'ts you got there are key examples of getting carried away

Give me a few examples. And not from a game we lost, either. I won't apologize for holding him accountable. It's not getting carried away.

---------- Post added December-7th-2010 at 07:02 AM ----------

You never evaluate a QB on his number of passing yards. Yards per attempt is universally accepted as a much better metric to evaluate QB performance. In a nutshell, QBs who pass the ball more will accumulate more passing yards. YPA shows how effective they were on average per pass.

McNabb's YPA is 7.20 which is putrid. In context with all the INTs and lack of TDs, his season has been an abject failure.

"Everyone makes mistakes and they made a mistake when they got rid of me".

For the first time on this website's history, I agree with Westbrook.

[Drastik]

How can anyone praise McNabb? Our QB production has declined, and he's playing with a better O-line and running backs than we had last season. Quinton Ganther or Rock Cartwright anyone? He also has a healthy Cooley.

The only positive McNabb has going for him is that he is pretty good at extending plays while playing behind this bad o-line. Other than that, I see no improvement in any other area. Two more wasted high-round draft picks down the drain. What could have been a starting center and guard or right tackle.

I'm tired of seeing McNabb throw balls in the dirt, or under throw wide open receivers down the field causing them to slow down to make the catch and get tackled for a 50yard gain instead of a 70yd TD.

[Frostx08]

Give me a few examples. And not from a game we lost, either. I won't apologize for holding him accountable. It's not getting carried away.

---------- Post added December-7th-2010 at 07:02 AM ----------

For the first time on this website's history, I agree with Westbrook.

Do you see your own logic here? So out of all the games we've played, we should just dismiss the other games and say "not a game we lost either" . Talk about nitpicking to hopefully support your argument

But you said you've NEVER seen him make a big play to turn a game around...or ignite the team with leadership. Fletcher himself said that it was McNabb who helped them keep their cool and have them BELIEVE that they could win the Packers game. A game btw in which McNabb was sacked 5 times...harassed and hit all day...and had no running game to support him. He had two big plays that turned that game around, in which he pushed off Clay Matthews to hit Moss 53 yrds downfield. Then later in the game avoiding a sack and hitting Armstrong for the Td

The Titans game we only had 23 yards rushing in the 2nd half..to 200 passing yards. It was McNabb and Cooley that kept us in the game, especially that sack McNabb avoided in OT to hit Cooley to which he may have taken it further if he wasn't tripped up. Those are a couple examples in games that we won since you narrowed it down to that

Like I said, there's no problem with criticism because McNabb has indeed struggled. But it should be reasonable, not over the top

How can anyone praise McNabb? Our QB production has declined, and he's playing with a better O-line and running backs than we had last season. Quinton Ganther or Rock Cartwright anyone? He also has a healthy Cooley.

The only positive McNabb has going for him is that he is pretty good at extending plays while playing behind this bad o-line. Other than that, I see no improvement in any other area. Two more wasted high-round draft picks down the drain. What could have been a starting center and guard or right tackle.

I'm tired of seeing McNabb throw balls in the dirt, or under throw wide open receivers down the field causing them to slow down to make the catch and get tackled for a 50yard gain instead of a 70yd TD.

We have better running backs? Wow, and here I thought our running game has sucked

[maskedsuperstar]

How can anyone praise McNabb? Our QB production has declined, and he's playing with a better O-line and running backs than we had last season. Quinton Ganther or Rock Cartwright anyone? He also has a healthy Cooley.

The only positive McNabb has going for him is that he is pretty good at extending plays while playing behind this bad o-line. Other than that, I see no improvement in any other area. Two more wasted high-round draft picks down the drain. What could have been a starting center and guard or right tackle.

I'm tired of seeing McNabb throw balls in the dirt, or under throw wide open receivers down the field causing them to slow down to make the catch and get tackled for a 50yard gain instead of a 70yd TD.

You are full of ****!!!!! McNabb has pressure in his face, which will cause balls to be under thown. That happened last week vs. the Vikings. How has the QB production declined? Were you around for Campbell? A better OLINE? A patched up OLINE. Better RB's? Like I said, you are full of ****

---------- Post added December-7th-2010 at 11:16 AM ----------

This thread is hilarious. Some fans just don't get it. Yeah, McNabb has struggled at times. But thats what happens when a new offense has been installed. He was in the same offense for 11 years. So, what do you expect? Do you guys want Campbell to come back? 3rd and 10, Campbell throws to Cooley for 5 yds. PUNT!!! Yeah, lets do that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

im just baffled at the hate for mcnabb after 12 games. people wanted campbell to stick around for 70 starts, yet mcnabbs had 12 games, shown flashes of how good this offense can be with next to nothing in the talent department, and people are ready to throw him away. its nuts.

[KDawg]

im just baffled at the hate for mcnabb after 12 games. people wanted campbell to stick around for 70 starts, yet mcnabbs had 12 games, shown flashes of how good this offense can be with next to nothing in the talent department, and people are ready to throw him away. its nuts.

The trade itself shouldn't have happened. He doesn't fit here. That's not his fault, and that's not condemning him, either. We're a team in transition that needs to be rebuilt. He most likely won't be around when we're able to properly compete and he's wasting some of his "younger" years with this franchise.

I actually feel bad for the guy.

[andboom]

I don't think we should just ditch the guy by any far stretch. I DO think that overall as a team we need to stop giving away high round picks for players past their prime. With that being said, DMac has shown flashes of how well this offense can be. Yet, his yards (keeping with the topic of this thread) mean absolutely nothing to me or the W-L record unless they can turn those into points.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The trade itself shouldn't have happened. He doesn't fit here. That's not his fault, and that's not condemning him, either. We're a team in transition that needs to be rebuilt. He most likely won't be around when we're able to properly compete and he's wasting some of his younger years with this franchise.

I actually feel bad for the guy.

the trade was meant to keep us competitive, instead of being 2-14 which we'd have been with grossman or campbell. a 2nd rounder to remain out of the cellar is ok by me, even if we're rebuilding (which we definitely are). this team should be improved by next season in the talent department and we should just keep getting better as long as the talent level continues to rise.

and if mcnabb didnt fit why was he just signed to an extension?

[andboom]

and if mcnabb didnt fit why was he just signed to an extension?

Funny, I was also wondering why he was signed for an extension lol j/k

[mistertim]

the trade was meant to keep us competitive, instead of being 2-14 which we'd have been with grossman or campbell. a 2nd rounder to remain out of the cellar is ok by me, even if we're rebuilding (which we definitely are). this team should be improved by next season in the talent department and we should just keep getting better as long as the talent level continues to rise.

and if mcnabb didnt fit why was he just signed to an extension?

You noticed, I assume, that the extension was also set up in a way to where they could dump him before a certain point without much of a hit to the cap (AKA: if he continues to not play well). I don't hate McNabb, I just don't see why some people can't see that SOME of the stuff going on out there is his fault. Yes, we have a poor line, yes we have a poor running game and crappy WRs. But that doesn't change the blatant mistakes and screwups that are on McNabb anymore than his screwups don't change or negate other players' mistakes.

He has accuracy issues, especially on short and intermediate routes. That is nothing new. He is forcing throws that are not there, even when he has time. Even when he has time he is missing open receivers. He also can't seem to even get touched without fumbling the ball. On the flip side, he doesn't have much talent to throw to, he doesn't have much of a running game, the line protecting him is crappy. All of those are valid and all of those ALSO factor into the general offensive suckitude. But so does McNabb. It just seems like some people here are "all or nothing" when it comes to the QB blame. Either it is all his fault or it is all the surrounding cast's fault, etc.

And as far as being 2-14 with Grossman or Campbell...what specific games has McNabb won for us this year? Like where he really put the team on his shoulders and went out there and made a win happen? Because that is essentially what you're saying there...that 3 of our wins so far have been directly correlated with McNabb. Which ones?

[Xero21]

When you're playing from behind in almost every game and your running game isn't worth a damn, yeah, I'd expect a lot of yards.

But more INTs than TDs? McNabb's season this year has been subpar at best. Not saying it's entirely his fault, but it is what it is.

[KDawg]

Do you see your own logic here? So out of all the games we've played, we should just dismiss the other games and say "not a game we lost either" . Talk about nitpicking to hopefully support your argument

Well, we lost more games than we've won, so I'm giving you a pretty large sample size

My argument from the start is that I don't believe yardage means everything here. Sure, yardage matters... It always does. But, let's look at his total stats for every game played...

Dallas: 63.4 RATE, 46.9% COMP, 171 YARDS, 0 TD, 0 INT - He didn't do much to win or lose this game. His completion percentage and QB Rating are pretty low, but, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do anything to lose this game.

Houston: 119.0 RATE, 73.7% COMP, 426 YARDS, 1 TD, 0 INT - Okay. This is a game that you absolutely have a point in. I remember seeing picks thrown, but apparently my memory is fuzzy from a season of suck for the entire franchise. You have a point here. This one is in no way shape or form on McNabb. He played very well.

St. Louis: 79.7 RATE, 59.4% COMP, 236 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT - 1:1 TD:INT ratio isn't horrendous. Decent game. Didn't ignite or help the team. But probably didn't hurt too much, either.

Philadelphia: 60.2 RATE, 42.1% COMP, 125 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT: TD:INT ratio isn't bad. Completion percentage and rating are horrible. This puts us at 1 great game, 1 decent game, 1 meh game, and 1 bad game.

Green Bay: 75.0 RATE, 53.1% COMP, 357 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT: TD:INT ratio not bad. Not good either, like the past three weeks of the exact same performance in this category. Yardage is good, completion percentage is low and rating is mediocre. He also fumbled once. We'll put this in the decent game category. So it's 1 great game, 2 decent games, 1 meh game, 1 bad game.

Indianapolis: 67.5 RATE, 64.4% COMP, 246 YARDS, 1 TD, 2 INT: When you throw for more picks than you do touchdowns, you have an issue. To get to 246 yards, mcnabb averaged 5.5 yards a completion. His completion percentage is good, his rate stinks. I put this under "meh". So it's 1 great game, 2 decent games, 2 meh games, 1 bad game.

Chicago: 56.8 RATE, 53.1% COMP, 200 Yards, 1 TD, 2 INT: Poor TD:INT ratio again. Low yards per attempt at 6.3. He fumbled twice. Rating stinks. This goes under bad. 1 great game, 2 decent games, 2 meh games, 2 bad games.

Detroit: 75.7 RATE, 56.7 COMP, 210 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT: Decent game, fumbled too. So it;s 1 great game, 3 decent games, 2 meh games, 2 bad games.

Philly: 69.4 RATE, 54.8% COMP, 295 YARDS, 2 TD, 3 INT: Poor rate. Decent completion. More INTs than TDs. Fumbled. Meh game. 1 great game, 2 decent games, 3 meh games, 2 bad games.

Tennessee: 81.7 RATE, 60% COMP, 376 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT: Good game. Fumbled too. I'll give him a good game here. 1 great game, 1 good game, 2 decent games, 3 meh games, 2 bad games.

Minnesota: 74.8 RATE, 60% COMP, 211 YARDS, 1 TD, 1 INT: Decent game all the way around. 1 great game, 1 good game, 3 decent games, 3 meh games, 2 bad games.

NYG: 68.0 RATE, 59.1% COMP, 296 YARDS, 1 TD, 2 INT: Fumbled as well. This goes under meh game, even though I'm tempted to put it under bad.

Final talley: 1 great game, 1 good game, 3 decent games, 3 meh games, 2 bad games. This is what you expect out of a 2nd round pick? It's not necessarily his fault, I admit that myself. But this is what he's going to have for probably a few years. It was not worth it for this team to trade that much for an aging QB.

But it should be reasonable, not over the top

It may be over the top to your definition. But not to many others

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You noticed, I assume, that the extension was also set up in a way to where they could dump him before a certain point without much of a hit to the cap (AKA: if he continues to not play well). I don't hate McNabb, I just don't see why some people can't see that SOME of the stuff going on out there is his fault. Yes, we have a poor line, yes we have a poor running game and crappy WRs. But that doesn't change the blatant mistakes and screwups that are on McNabb anymore than his screwups don't change other players' mistakes.

He has accuracy issues, especially on short and intermediate routes. That is nothing new. He is forcing throws that are not there, even when he has time. Even when he has time he is missing open receivers. He also can't seem to even get touched without fumbling the ball. On the flip side, he doesn't have much talent to throw to, he doesn't have much of a running game, the line protecting him is crappy. All of those are valid and all of those ALSO factor into the general offensive suckitude. But so does McNabb. It just seems like some people here are "all or nothing" when it comes to the QB blame. Either it is all his fault or it is all the surrounding cast's fault, etc.

And as far as being 2-14 with Grossman or Campbell...what specific games has McNabb won for us this year? Like where he really put the team on his shoulders and went out there and made a win happen? Because that is essentially what you're saying there...that 3 of our wins so far have been directly correlated with McNabb. Which ones?

mcnabb is far from blameless, hes definitely not playing that great. but ive seen enough flashes to know that i wanna see more with some better players. i wonder if some of his mistakes are in the superman vein, where he feels like hes the only guy and hes trying to do too much and is making stupid throws. whatever it is, its not good. granted last week was his worst game of the season so all of the negatives about his play are being magnified this week on top of that.

and about games we lose without mcnabb. green bay, tennessee, and probably the first eagles game although his boxscore is weak. he made some plays in that game that kept us going. and we'd have been blown out in the houston game if not for mcnabb.

again, mcnabb is not playing great, you wont hear me defending his current resume with this team. i will however defend that he is a proven QB that is struggling with a lot of factors on a very talentless team at the moment, and im not ready to give up on him or throw in the towel on his tenure here. as i said before, if were having this same discussion in december of 2011 and the offense is still dead, i will want mcnabb gone. however, 12 games is too early for me to give up on a guy.

[Drastik]

The O-Line is BETTER than it was last year, that is not debatable.

[cphil006]

Brad Johnson.

Before him I think it was jay Schreoder??

[KDawg]

the trade was meant to keep us competitive, instead of being 2-14 which we'd have been with grossman or campbell. a 2nd rounder to remain out of the cellar is ok by me, even if we're rebuilding (which we definitely are). this team should be improved by next season in the talent department and we should just keep getting better as long as the talent level continues to rise.

Different philosophy, then. Because if we're going to stink I'd rather stink and have guys to develop. We gave up two young guys for one old guy. And the difference is going to be a few wins max.

and if mcnabb didnt fit why was he just signed to an extension?

Good question.

[Drastik]

Again, I would prefer to have that starting center and guard we traded away for McNabb, and let grossman go 2-14 and pick up another top 5 pick and early 2nd.

Whats the logic in trading away a 2nd and 3rd pick on a rebuilding team so we can go 6-10 instead of 4-12 and just screw ourselves in terms of draft position?

If we're not going to the playoffs theres no sense in hoping to move further back in the draft by winning an extra game or two. Especially not at the cost of two high round selections.

[cphil006]

The O-Line is BETTER than it was last year, that is not debatable.

If we run the ball more, our offense will be on the field more (during running clock) and the other team's offense will be on the field less therefore giving the illusion our defense is better.

That might not make much sense or be our of place in this thread, but I thought it was telling of the passing game vs. running game and how it affects the defensive stats.

Since we are so quick with 3-and-outs it lets the other team run up their stats

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Kdawg, id like your opinion on why you think mcnabb is stuck with the current lack of talent we have. you really dont think we can solve a nice chunk of those problems on offense next year with a good draft and some smart FA pickups? we need some interior oline, a big receiver, and potentially a RB if davis isnt the long term. you can find the majority of that in one off season if we're making smart moves.

remember, vinny IS gone lol.

[cphil006]

Different philosophy, then. Because if we're going to stink I'd rather stink and have guys to develop. We gave up two young guys for one old guy. And the difference is going to be a few wins max.

Good question.

With Colt McCoy playing well, we can only wonder.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Different philosophy, then. Because if we're going to stink I'd rather stink and have guys to develop. We gave up two young guys for one old guy. And the difference is going to be a few wins max.

Good question.

remember, we got another young guy for campbell, so in essence we gave up 1 guy to stay competitive. and if things work out in a good draft and a good FA period, we could be on the right path to something.

some of you need to figure out soon that this team is never going to do the complete blow it up 1-15 season deal. look how impatient this fanbase is with shanahan right now? you think this town could handle losing 15/16 games? for 2 seasons?? not a chance in hell.

mcnabb was a 2nd rounder to avoid being that team. it wasnt a 1st rounder. we recouped the 2nd day pick with campbell. getting a vet leader QB thats still pretty good for one draft pick is not going to kill us. im not sure why people seem to think giving up 1 2nd round pick for mcnabb was like we mortgaged 8 years for one guy.

and again, did anyone see how our last 2nd round panned out? lol