Switching to the 3-4 defense. Was it a mistake? If so, who made it? What are the implications going forward?

[#98QBKiller]

bottom line is that the defense didn't stop anybody. The 4-3 defense was run over last year by the Giants. Give it a rest.

Which defense is worse? We've given up 90 points in our last two division games. Stop defending Haslett.

[scuppajones]

The same solid group that couldn't stop the Giants last year? Eagles? Cowboys? O-6 in the division and 4-12. Don't let the stats fool you. The defense couldn't stop anybody when it mattered.

What offense was scared of the Skins defense?

I will go back to 2008 with our defensive ranking running a 4-3

2008 Defensive Ranking #8

2008 Defensive Ranking #4

2009 Defensive Ranking #10

And now drum role please with the same core of players:

2010 Defensive Ranking #32

The switch was a mistake, these are the stats, they don't lie. End of argument

Bam Lawyered.

[Mahons21]

Which defense is worse? We've given up 90 points in our last two division games. Stop defending Haslett.

Maybe you should stop defending a talentless squad. Is it Haslett's fault that Rocky McIntosh is scared to tackle Brandon Jacobs? Or that Phillip Buchanon can't cover a comeback route to save his life, nor make a tackle on a RB?

Is it Hasletts's fault that even our best defensive players like Orakpo, are making huge assignments mistakes?

[DjTj]

Maybe you should stop defending a talentless squad. Is it Haslett's fault that Rocky McIntosh is scared to tackle Brandon Jacobs? Or that Phillip Buchanon can't cover a comeback route to save his life, nor make a tackle on a RB?

Is it Hasletts's fault that even our best defensive players like Orakpo, are making huge assignments mistakes?

Yes. Rocky and Orakpo were both better last year. The only difference is the coaching. (Buchanon is being forced to play beyond his abilities by injuries, and that's not really anyone's fault).

[Mahons21]

Yes. Rocky and Orakpo were both better last year. The only difference is the coaching. (Buchanon is being forced to play beyond his abilities by injuries, and that's not really anyone's fault).

So it is Hasletts fault that Rocky McIntosh tries to tackle Jacobs with a one armed shove. No way he would have done that in a 4-3. Had he had 4 down linemen in front of him, he obviously would have wrapped up and gone with a form tackle.

It's Haslett's fault that Orakpo breaks contain on a play? You realize what his 4-3 assignment if he was playing his correct position would be right?

[DjTj]

So it is Hasletts fault that Rocky McIntosh tries to tackle Jacobs with a one armed shove. No way he would have done that in a 4-3. Had he had 4 down linemen in front of him, he obviously would have wrapped up and gone with a form tackle.

It's Haslett's fault that Orakpo breaks contain on a play? You realize what his 4-3 assignment if he was playing his correct position would be right?

It has nothing to do with 3-4 vs. 4-3. Coaches do a lot more than design a scheme. They should be teaching better tackling. They should be emphasizing gap control and sticking to assignments. The players have shown no improvement in their fundamentals between last year and this year. That falls on coaching as much as it does on the players.

[Mahons21]

It has nothing to do with 3-4 vs. 4-3. Coaches do a lot more than design a scheme. They should be teaching better tackling. They should be emphasizing gap control and sticking to assignments. The players have shown no improvement in their fundamentals between last year and this year. That falls on coaching as much as it does on the players.

OC's and DC's actually spend the large majority if not all their time on scheme. It's a large job, and there isn't time for much else. Hence the purpose of the positional coaches.

Then you should be ****ing about either a.) The linebackers coach, b.) the d-line coach. Also you realize a coach can harp on on fundamentals all day long, if the players don't do it they don't do it. At what point does it become the millionaire players responsibility to fulfill his assignment? Ever? Or can he just continue to say well my coach didn't tell me to go with my fundamentals so it's his fault..

And if you don't think gap control is a huge part of what Haslett this defense concentrates on, why exactly do you think it is Haynesworth isn't part of our base defense?

[KDawg]

Haslett 2-gaps it. So it's not a very good gap control defense, if that's what he's after.

[Mahons21]

Haslett 2-gaps it. So it's not a very good gap control defense, if that's what he's after.

Just because he doesn't run a 1-gap scheme doesn't mean he doesn't place any importance on gap control.

I know you're quite knowledgeable on this topic. I was always taught a 1-gap scheme a d-linemen lines up over the top of the o-linemen, but in a 2-gap the d-linemen lines up in between the guard and the center.

From what I can tell we're not strictly a 2-gap scheme defense.

[#98QBKiller]

Maybe you should stop defending a talentless squad.

You don't really believe that do you? Fletcher, Orakpo, Haynesworth, Hall, Landry, these are Pro-Bowl caliber players when utilized correctly. And all of them have regressed under Haslett's scheme, minus Landry.

With the number of talented players we have on the defensive side of the ball, there's no excuse for getting blown out like we are against our division rivals, the teams that you build your defense to stop.

[KDawg]

Just because he doesn't run a 1-gap scheme doesn't mean he doesn't place any importance on gap control.

I know you're quite knowledgeable on this topic. I was always taught a 1-gap scheme a d-linemen lines up over the top of the o-linemen, but in a 2-gap the d-linemen lines up in between the guard and the center.

From what I can tell we're not strictly a 2-gap scheme defense.

Eh, alignment has very little to do with scheme. Ideally, though, if I were to run a 2-gap scheme I'd align my guys head up on the offensive line. This way they engage the offensive lineman and can read which gap to shoot. If it's a nose, it's either A-Gap. They control the center and pick a gap to shoot based on read.

When I 1-gap I can line them up head up and slant, or I can put them in the gap. Putting them in the gap falls short when it comes to disguising, save for stunts, but it puts them in the gap they're responsible for as well.

[Mahons21]

You don't really believe that do you?

They don't have much talent. Plain and simple.

Fletcher, Orakpo, Haynesworth, Hall, Landry, these are Pro-Bowl caliber players when utilized correctly.And all of them have regressed under Haslett's scheme, minus Landry.

Orakpo and Hall regressed did they? From what I can see Orakpo needs 2.5 in the next 4 games to tie his sack total from last season and through 12 weeks he has as many fumbles/pass deflections as he did all last year.

Hall already has more interceptions and also has the fumble he stripped out and returned for a TD.

So Fletcher who's getting old and isn't part of the future of this team regressed, and that POS Haynesworth regressed.

With the number of talented players we have on the defensive side of the ball, there's no excuse for getting blown out like we are against our division rivals, the teams that you build your defense to stop.

The number was 5, and in case you didn't notice 2 of them were missing. One of which has been the best player on our defense this year..

---------- Post added December-6th-2010 at 01:29 PM ----------

Eh, alignment has very little to do with scheme. Ideally, though, if I were to run a 2-gap scheme I'd align my guys head up on the offensive line. This way they engage the offensive lineman and can read which gap to shoot. If it's a nose, it's either A-Gap. They control the center and pick a gap to shoot based on read.

When I 1-gap I can line them up head up and slant, or I can put them in the gap. Putting them in the gap falls short when it comes to disguising, save for stunts, but it puts them in the gap they're responsible for as well.

I see what you're saying. So what prevents a 2-gap from gap control then? I assume it's more of a penetrating style defense.

[KDawg]

I see what you're saying. So what prevents a 2-gap from gap control then? I assume it's more of a penetrating style defense.

No. The two gap is more of a "eat blockers" defense for the defensive line. I went very basic in description. Really, the 2-gap defensive lineman, for example, is going to engage and read. Usually a second player (guard in the case of the nose tackle) is going to also attack the nose. The guard coming at you is generally the side the ball will be run to, this makes your read easier. You must fight the double team and clog that gap. The 2-gap player reads two gaps, but attacks one. So it's a reactionary type of defense. Someone who is really good at making the proper reads will diagnose immediately and attack. But if you're not good at making the reads you're going to be slow and beaten to the punch every time. I think this is where we're struggling. Most 2-gap defensive lineman will never face just one blocker, and if they do, there's either a pull coming, a fullback coming or the opposing offense doesn't think much of you.

A 1-gap player will shoot his gap and handle business in that gap. It's an attacking defense in that you're not reacting.

I won't get into linebacker responsibilities in this post, but this is the gist of the 2-gap in a 3-4 for the defensive line. Eat blockers, protect the backers, clog the hole.

2-gap defenses are extremely effective if you have the guys who can read properly. They are horrendously ineffective if your players struggle with diagnosing a play.

---------- Post added December-6th-2010 at 01:39 PM ----------

Here's a link I found for basic 2-gap defensive line technique:

http://0301.netclime.net/1_5/N/0/T/Defensive%20Tackle%20pla.doc

I don't agree with all of it, but it's fundamentally on the money for the most part.

[Mahons21]

Sounds to me like we need a NT.

[War Paint]

The same solid group that couldn't stop the Giants last year? Eagles? Cowboys? O-6 in the division and 4-12. Don't let the stats fool you. The defense couldn't stop anybody when it mattered.

What offense was scared of the Skins defense?

While it's easy to pull up last year and our 0-6 division record, last year was more a reflection of the team just quitting due to the constant "Is Zorn going to get fired this week" throughout the entire season. We were in utter chaos in regards to the front office and distractions with Zorn being a dead man walking. Last year was more of the team packing it in early, like the Cowboys did early this season and not really a lack of talent on defense. Perhaps if Snyder fired Zorn early, the players may have rallied behind our interim coach and we would have finished with a better record.

[KDawg]

Sounds to me like we need a NT.

And a few DEs that can play. But yes. We SORELY need a NT if we're going to stick with the 3-4. This is one of the issues I have. Teaching the 2-gap to a bunch of guys who probably won't be here. We could have one gapped it and eased the 2-gap in with the guys we have, and then add more 2-gap next year, and full implementation the third season. But we don't see that. But, I guess I can't fully judge. I'm not in meetings and I don't have a copy of the playbook. It's an assumption based on watching the team.

[ManleyMann7271]

I do think it was a mistake to install the 3-4 in Washington, if for no other reason than it just does not feel right. The decision was Shanahan's so therefore his fault. The dumbest thing of all is I am pretty sure that neither Shanahan nor Haslett has ever run a 3-4. If a coach wants to switch to a 3-4 he should probably hire a coach that has run one, if not his entire career, at least once. It's true that the 4-3 has had some rushing holes in it over the years but never as much as this defense. In all of our years of mediocrity since Snyder came to town, at least our defense has been the bright spot of the team. Now our offense remains stagnant and our defense is an absolute joke. I believe the only reason Landry has excelled so much is not due to the 3-4 scheme but because he is back in his natural position at strong safety, he should have never been moved and that has to come down on Greg Blache. This defense is supposed to be so inventive, force so many turnovers, it's all B.S. With the players we have the 4-3 could be awesome with a little imagination, how could the 3-4 possibly give us so many more opportunities for turn overs and blitz packages? It's just propaganda and rhetoric, a way to defend s system change that should have never occurred in DC, who are we, the cowboys?

[War Paint]

Sounds to me like we need a NT.

Yeah, we need a beast NT, a DE an outside LB and probably two big and strong ILBs. I was watching the Ravens and Steelers last night. Their defense just look physically bigger and stronger than ours. We look too undersized at several positions on our front seven compared to theirs.

[Mahons21]

And a few DEs that can play. But yes. We SORELY need a NT if we're going to stick with the 3-4. This is one of the issues I have. Teaching the 2-gap to a bunch of guys who probably won't be here. We could have one gapped it and eased the 2-gap in with the guys we have, and then add more 2-gap next year, and full implementation the third season. But we don't see that. But, I guess I can't fully judge. I'm not in meetings and I don't have a copy of the playbook. It's an assumption based on watching the team.

It sounds logical to me. But at the same time they could have gone with the, we're going to throw everyone in the pool this year, and see who sinks and who swims.

Starting to get excited about this offseason, oh the life of a Redskins fan.

---------- Post added December-6th-2010 at 01:49 PM ----------

Yeah, we need a beast NT, a DE an outside LB and probably two big and strong ILBs. I was watching the Ravens and Steelers last night. Their defense just look physically bigger and stronger than ours. We look too undersized at several positions on our front seven compared to theirs.

I noticed the exact same thing. Our Lb's just don't look half as big or mean.

[Chicken Fried]

It was a mistake to both switch to a 3-4 (long term move) and trade for McNabb (short term, win-now move) in the same offseason. They didn't add up. We set the defense back 4 years with the 3-4 switch, but we also trade for a QB who has 2 years or thereabouts left to be in shape to win a Super Bowl?

[panel]

The 3-4 is like a knuckle ball, it is only very effective, when very few others use it, making it exotic, and confusing. But when you face it all the time, it becomes easy to exploit, and only the top talents can continue to succeed at it. In the 90s, there were maybe 2 teams using the 3-4, now, half the league uses it. That takes away from the exotic and confusing nature that they 3-4 had in the 90s.

The other problem is that it is harder to staff. All the D linemen need to be big. The NT needs to be a freak of nature. There are not 16 freaks of Nature available in the NFL at NT. The only teams that have the great NTs, are the teams that have already been using the 3-4 for a long time. A great NT would rather play for a team that has been successful at the system for a while. Because NTs are so rare, and so many teams have 3-4s now, it means all the teams fight over the available NTs, over pay them for the relative talent that they provide, and are left with less resources for the rest of the team. NTs are typically are to draft as well, they all end up going high, and many of them don't pan out.

The next problem is that because the whole D Line must be so big, they are slow. The D Linemen perusing the QB will all be slower. A Robert Mathis/ Dwight Freeney pass rush would be considered way too small in a 3-4. The 3-4 makes up for this by freeing one one of the linebackers to get involved with the pass rush. The problem is that the person that you need to send in needs to be a special athlete, with the pass rush of DE, and the coverage of a LB, this again is a very tough to find player (this would be your Ware/Orakpo player).

When 16 teams are competing for this type of player, they become overpriced, and often times, miss used. They are typically better at either rushing the passer, or pass coverage.

The 3-4 is weaker against the run, with fewer, slower players on the line, the chances of your D getting a stuff behind the line are lower. Because you have typically smaller players on the field, it is easier for OLinemen to control the play, and most of the defenders are lined up farther back, putting them in a tougher position to stop the run.

The supposed advantage of the 3-4 is that it is better against the pass, because you have 4 quicker LBs to go into coverage. I think this advantage is WAY over stated. If you put 4 LBs in coverage, then you only have 3 slow D Linemen pressuring the QB. If you also send in one LB, then you are sending in one true pass rusher, and 3 slow DLinemen, and you are back to the same thing as a 4-3. The one true advantage that the 3-4 has is that the O should not know which LB they will send in to help the pass rush, supposedly making the coverage harder to read, and the pass rush harder to pick up. But if you are used to facing a 3-4, reading and picking up the extra guy becomes easier, and could nullify the advantage of the system but still be exposed to its weaknesses.

Now, if you are able to put together a good 3-4 properly, so that your NT is actually dominate, you have 3 linemen that can constantly eat up blocks, and you do have LBs that are able to both blitz and cover on any given play, then the 3-4 is very dangerous.

But that requires a lot of talent, and I think a 4-3 with a lot of talent is just as dangerous, but easier to staff if you don't have all the talent.

[GibbsFactor]

Sounds to me like we need a NT.

Everyone gets soooo caught up in WR, RB, FS, OLB, etc...

Fact is, the two biggest pieces that need to be filled are the middle of both lines. NT and Center. Nothing else comes close IMO.

[Mahons21]

Everyone gets soooo caught up in WR, RB, FS, OLB, etc...

Fact is, the two biggest pieces that need to be filled are the middle of both lines. NT and Center. Nothing else comes close IMO.

I'd love to load up on some linemen this draft. We could use another DE, a couple guards, and obviously the NT/C you mentioned. This team needs to build from the inside out. Corners/RBs/QBs/WR's/FS/SS can all look much much better than they are when they have a good line in front of them.

[Chicken Fried]

Everyone gets soooo caught up in WR, RB, FS, OLB, etc...

Fact is, the two biggest pieces that need to be filled are the middle of both lines. NT and Center. Nothing else comes close IMO.

True, but we do need new talent at literally every position except TE.

[Mahons21]

Everyone gets soooo caught up in WR, RB, FS, OLB, etc...

Fact is, the two biggest pieces that need to be filled are the middle of both lines. NT and Center. Nothing else comes close IMO.

I'd love to load up on some linemen this draft. We could use another DE, a couple guards, and obviously the NT/C you mentioned. This team needs to build from the inside out. Corners/RBs/QBs/WR's/FS/SS can all look much much better than they are when they have a good line in front of them.