Switching to the 3-4 defense. Was it a mistake? If so, who made it? What are the implications going forward?

[Destino]

There is clearly a lot of debate surrounding the situation on defense. The stats are well known and feel free to look them up if you aren't familiar with them yet. NFL.com makes doing so easy. Suffice it to say the defense drove off a statistical cliff and took a nose dive. The question is (as is in the thread title) was it a mistake to switch to the 3-4? Is the system to blame or the coordinator? Who made these mistakes? Lastly what are the implications of having made the switch going forward into the foreseeable future?

Please keep responses calm and rational. This isn't a venting thread.

Personally I think the switch to the 3-4 was a mistake. The reason I say so is because I think it created holes in a team with too many to begin with. As far as who made this mistake it's hard to say. I don't know how the conversations went behind closed doors. Did Shanahan say this is what we were going to do or was he told we could pull it off. Without knowing that I can't say how made the mistake.

I can say that I have no reason to have faith in Haslett. His record doesn't wow me and this defense has been woefully unprepared for big games.

Everyone acknowledges that we need offensive line, running back, and wide receiver infusions. However how can those positions be upgraded in good conscience when the defense is significantly worse than the offense? The defense is the worst the NFL has to offer and it may very well lose a starting corner and linebacker.

Nose tackles are expensive. Impossible to find decent ones in FA most of the time and requiring of a 1-3 round draft pick. The 3-4 can't run without one. Then there is the problem with DE's, that problem being ours are bad. Very bad. Let's not forget about line backers that fit the system and one to potentially replace Rocky. Corners aren't easily replaced either and expensive.

We have no 3rd and 4th round picks. Had the defense simply stood pat we'd have one side of the ball in need of urgent attention. We now have a debate as to which needs attention more urgently. This to me is a massive failure from the leadership of this team. A miscalculation that has played out before our eyes that I think caught Shanahan, Allen, and Snyder by surprise.

This is my take and I don't claim it to be factual. Feel free to offer a different perspective.

[Kilmer17]

It clearly is worse for THIS year and probably for NEXT year as well.

But the NFL is trending towards such a pass happy offensive league that the 3-4 will become the most prevalent system.

We need to play that for years to come, so while it sucks this year (and warning to all, for next as well), it's a necessary switch.

[Boss_Hogg]

It clearly is worse for THIS year and probably for NEXT year as well.

But the NFL is trending towards such a pass happy offensive league that the 3-4 will become the most prevalent system.

We need to play that for years to come, so while it sucks this year (and warning to all, for next as well), it's a necessary switch.

hope you're right because our defense is FUGLY

[PeterMP]

In the context of the McNabb trade, it was a mistake.

In the context of 4 year plan, it might be a fine idea.

[bishtw]

Huge mistake, and for all the reasons mentioned above.

As for the blame, the blame is squarely on Shanny's shoulder's. You don't hire a race car driver to drive a train, then get piss when the race car driver crashes the train. Jim Hastoletemscore is the race car driver and the 4-3 defense is the race car, the train is the 3-4 D and Jimmy doesn't have a clue whats going on and thus our defense is a total train wreak.

[Destino]

It clearly is worse for THIS year and probably for NEXT year as well.

But the NFL is trending towards such a pass happy offensive league that the 3-4 will become the most prevalent system.

We need to play that for years to come, so while it sucks this year (and warning to all, for next as well), it's a necessary switch.

I certainly don't disagree with the idea of implementing a 3-4. From a management perspective though implementation has to go right. You can't just decide "companies are doing this" and then drop the ball on the crucial implementation stage. It has to be done right or it does more damage and actually makes the transition LONGER than if you had waited and done it properly.

I truely think Shanahan, Haslett, Allen, and Snyder thought they had the horses. Kemo had been good. Carriker was thought to be playing out of position in the 4-3 and a good fit for the 3-4. Andre Carter had played in it before and Orakpo is a better 3-4 linebacker than he is a 4-3 LB. I think they looked at the pieces and told themselves "we can do this" because frankly doing it otherwise is just plain stupid and these men are far from stupid.

Sadly the implementation has been a disaster and that disaster will have consequences that will make the transition harder than it should be. Instead of building on strengths we eliminated one and turned it into our biggest weakness. Thus turning this team into a winner just became a longer road.

[bhi4582]

The switch is not a mistake. The 3-4 defense has been proven to be the superior defense with the right personnel. Do we have the right personnel? Not really, but we weren't really going to compete this year anyway. Keep the patience! HTTR

[Destino]

The switch is not a mistake. The 3-4 defense has been proven to be the superior defense with the right personnel. Do we have the right personnel? Not really, but we weren't really going to compete this year anyway. Keep the patience! HTTR

Do you think the coaches realized they didn't have the pieces and did it anyway? If I thought that I'd demand Shanahan be fired immediately. A move that stupid should never be done by anyone considered an executive. Failure has consequences, you don't initiate failure on purpose unless you have no other choice.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Horrible move in the short term.

I don't see why it had to be rushed.

We have essentially ONE player among our LB/DL group that's a really good fit for the 3-4 and that's Carricker, who hasn't even had that much of an impact this year.

Can you imagine how much better we'd be with a 4-3 defense and better play calling this year?

Carter-Haynesworth-(rotation)-Orakpo

Rocky-Fletcher-Whoever wins the battle between Perry Riley/HB Blades/Chris Wilson/Lorenzo Alexander

So much better than this bull****. Kemo has little to nothing left in the tank. Carter can't get on the field. Orakpo is NOT a 3-4 OLB. Even Fletcher has looked lost and you know he's giving it his all.

I was really disappointed when we brought in Haslett. He's never, ever impressed me and this year hasn't looked much different.

Square peg in a round hole plus injuries and an uninspiring DC? Fail.

If you wanted to do it for the future, why not wait until we get a draft class in here and some more free agents so that we're not just throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks? I guess since this year is a rebuilding year its like an extended tryout for the players but damn they certainly haven't looked better as the season has worn on.

Shanny wanted the 3-4, apparently he went around the NFL when he was unemployed and really liked the 3-4 defense and the turnovers it creates. I'm not sure the 3-4 is the answer or the wave of the future but we'll see.

Do you think the coaches realized they didn't have the pieces and did it anyway? If I thought that I'd demand Shanahan be fired immediately. A move that stupid should never be done by anyone considered an executive. Failure has consequences, you don't initiate failure on purpose unless you have no other choice.

Well, either you should demand it or Shanny is completely clueless when it comes to defense, as are Haslett and Allen (though I guess Allen doesn't do a ton of the personnel stuff). There is no way you can look at this roster and say "hey, we could run the 3-4".

[2006Skins]

I think it was a mistake to make the switch. Mainly because this defense as a 4-3 had many less holes to fill than at the 3-4. At the 4-3, you needed another penetrating DT, and another OLB to move Orakpo at DE (which many think he would excel at in 4-3) and mix some aggressive blitz packages (see Philly/NO who runs an aggressive 4-3) and you have what you're looking for. But I think a lot of it was arrogance by Shanny and Haslett to think they can force the 3-4 on this team.

I think there are two roads that could be taken. If they want the quick fix, chalk it up to a failed conversion andgo back to the 4-3, build up the D; or if they're serious about building a long term contender the right way, then build through the draft to get the 3-4 you want. But that's a huge risk. Because if the defense doesn't wind up where you want, Shanny risks taking tons of heat due to the defense's previous success.

[Kilmer17]

Debating WHY and whether we SHOULD have is fun, but past productive.

We're here now, and we need to stay with it, warts and all.

[mmzznnxx]

In the context of the McNabb trade, it was a mistake.

In the context of 4 year plan, it might be a fine idea.

I think he put it best. If we were going to get McNabb and try to make a run, we should have stuck with 4-3 for what most of the defense is suited for. If we're trying to rebuild, it's a good idea just to see who has a future with team and who doesn't. What we got is some weird mix of both where expectations are raised and mercilessly dashed.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Right defense. Wrong time.

I love the idea of moving to a 34. Heck, initially, even given the lack of personnel, I was fully behind the idea. But as the season's rolled, with first Haynesworth taking his bat and ball home and refusing to buy in, and it becoming more and more apparent that not many on this D are going last the course of the transition and aren't gona' fit no matter how long they play it; there's no doubt we made the switch too early. I'd go as far as to say we'd of beaten Houston, the Vikings, and maybe taken the scalp of Indi had we been in our base 43 with this group.

Through trying to implement too much, too soon, the new regime have cost themselves 3 or 4 more wins and a serious shot at post season play.

Hail.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Debating WHY and whether we SHOULD have is fun, but past productive.

We're here now, and we need to stay with it, warts and all.

Yes well, we could say that about quite a few things.

But since this team is a miserable failure, might as well have some fun.

[Xero21]

It was a mistake.

Our defense was good. It was overrated, but it was good. It was also the one bright spot of our team. We already had all the players for it. This switch just makes the rebuilding process that much harder.

Why? The 3-4 defense has been around for years. It only recently has really started to trend a good bit. It's not necessarily superior to the 4-3. If you think it's superior against the pass, I'm not sure how true that could possibly be. In fact, once you get into nickel and dime packages, most 3-4 teams revert to a lot of natural 4-3 looks anyway.

I don't see why a more aggressive, ball-hawking scheme couldn't have been applied to a 4-3 defense instead of trying to make a complete overhaul.

All this does is set the team back another couple of years.

[DjTj]

Debating WHY and whether we SHOULD have is fun, but past productive.

Is anything that we do here productive?

I think that asking these kinds of questions can help us understand how our coaching staff makes decisions, and how there might be problems with it.

I think that Shanahan liked the 3-4 defense, and between he and Haslett, they somehow convinced themselves that they could make it work. They probably even convinced themselves that they could make Haynesworth play nose tackle, even though Haynesworth had explicitly said he did not want to be a nose tackle. The Haynesworth situation is really what destroyed any chance of the 3-4 being successful this year. Having our most talented and highest-paid defensive player left out of the scheme guaranteed that we would have a below-par defense. When Rogers and Landry went down, any benefits we could have enjoyed in the secondary from the 3-4 were nullified.

Going forward, I think we're stuck with the 3-4. I think that Shanahan and Haslett overestimated their ability to "coach up" players to fit the new scheme. Now they know that it won't work with certain personnel. That means we have to get rid of Haynesworth. And Andre Carter. Maybe Rocky. It's not a one-year rebuilding project.

[chipwhich]

Our problem wasn't in the change of scheme.

Any scheme is bad if you have the inability to tackle, inability to be in position.

Our team is old and slow.

People question why we took so long to drop Larry Johnson. It's because he played well against our old guys.

We need to purge and start fresh.

The team is old.

[Destino]

Any scheme is bad if you have the inability to tackle, inability to be in position.

Our team is old and slow.

People question why we took so long to drop Larry Johnson. It's because he played well against our old guys.

We need to purge and start fresh.

The team is old.

I think blaming the roster is a cop-out. That roster was good enough to, in the three years immediately prior to this one, put up top 10 defensive numbers. It's now dead last. The change in defense be it coaching or scheme certainly played a major role.

---------- Post added December-6th-2010 at 05:08 AM ----------

Debating WHY and whether we SHOULD have is fun, but past productive.

We're here now, and we need to stay with it, warts and all.

I disagree and again bring up the way business is done. You have to understand what went wrong and way to avoid making those mistakes again. The problem could simply be Haslett's terrible coaching. It could be the players all suddenly turned to crap after a good immediate history. It could be that coaches put in a scheme without even considering how the players would adapt.

Also I'm not sure stay with it no matter what is an intelligent reaction. I'm not sure staying with it this year has proven to be an intelligent response to the crisis. Unless we make significant improvements another year of this isn't a good idea.

[BadKarma]

It was a mistake for this season and a mistake we are most likely going to have to pay for next season also as Shanahan is way beyond changing his mind and conceding his mistake. Not only do we alienate the most dominant straight line DT in football but we added to the already huge laundry list associated with our dis functional offense and face doubling that problem in having to now re tool the defense.

I think Shanahan fell in love with the 3-4 in his year off and didn't bother to consider the fact that he had a functional 4-3 base already in place here that could have been properly directed into a top 5 unit. We have eliminated ourselves from the playoffs this season and now face pushing the rebuild back into year 4 and possibly year 5 of Shanahan which considering Snyder's short fuse could be an epic failure for what looked like the first positive move he had made in his short ownership of the franchise.

I think like the Bills realized we have to concede we screwed up here and go back to the 4-3 even if it means parting ways with acquisitions like Carricker and Kemo who arguably arent even functional cogs assuming we had the rest of the personnel in place. Its just logical to cut down on the off season wish list and utilize the personnel we have already in place so as not to waste the tenure of Donovan here in D.C. If we dont get a functional offensive line and skill position personnel in place for him next season he isn't going to want to stick around and finish his career like this.

[PeterMP]

I'll add. I think there is going to be an issue with running the 3-4. There is always going to be a limit on NT like players, and it isn't a position where you can hide a poor player.

As more teams run the 3-4, you are going to have more competition for those players.

Right now, everybody that wants to run a 3-4 (except us) can find a "good" NT. That won't be the case as more teams run a 3-4, and we might be a victim of this right now.

To a certain, extent, I think over the next 5 years or so the advantage might swing back to the 4-3 as there is less competition for the players fitting that scheme and more "bad" teams play a 3-4, as there aren't enough people to fit that scheme so people are running a 3-4 w/ below average talent as they try and fit the pieces together..

I'd likely not have moved to 3-4 until I was pretty sure I had a 3-4 NT (which they might have thought they had in Hayensworth or Nemo).

[chipwhich]

I think blaming the roster is a cop-out. That roster was good enough to, in the three years immediately prior to this one, put up top 10 defensive numbers. It's now dead last. The change in defense be it coaching or scheme certainly played a major role.

They aren't TACKLING.

That's coaching and play, not a cop out.

Fan's over sell our defensive ranking. The talent on the field is a joke. If you can't tackle, the scheme doesn't matter. That's either coaching, or talent. You decide.

[drowland]

I understand why Shanahan wanted to switch to a 3-4. He always had problems coaching against it. Since few NFC teams play it, I'm sure he thought it would give him an advantage.

If there's a mistake, I'd say it's mostly coaching. I've never been impressed with Haslett defenses. People try to credit him for the late 90s Steeler defenses, but Dom Capers and Dick LeBeau developed those units. Shanahan should of looked at Romeo Crennel instead. The Chiefs D made a huge jump this season under Romeo.

[cphil006]

They aren't TACKLING.

That's coaching and play, not a cop out.

Fan's over sell our defensive ranking. The talent on the field is a joke. If you can't tackle, the scheme doesn't matter. That's either coaching, or talent. You decide.

Our D-Line... is bad. On Jacobs TD run, they didn't defend the cut-back. Poor performance. They were not ready or prepared.

---------- Post added December-6th-2010 at 12:27 AM ----------

I understand why Shanahan wanted to switch to a 3-4. He always had problems coaching against it. Since few NFC teams play it, I'm sure he thought it would give him an advantage.

If there's a mistake, I'd say it's mostly coaching. I've never been impressed with Haslett defenses. People try to credit him for the late 90s Steeler defenses, but Dom Capers and Dick LeBeau developed those units. Shanahan should of looked at Romeo Crennel instead. The Chiefs D made a huge jump this season under Romeo.

Romeo had the connection to the KC GM, Scott Paoli (sp)

[chipwhich]

Our D-Line... is bad. On Jacobs TD run, they didn't defend the cut-back. Poor performance. They were not ready or prepared.

Agreed.

Calling a cop out on the oldest defense in the league is a joke.

No wonder LJ was kept on the roster for so long, he probably ran all over this defense.

[drowland]

Romeo had the connection to the KC GM, Scott Paoli (sp)

So what? Doesn't mean they couldn't interview him. Maybe the Skins offer him more money.