SG: Is There A Civil War Going On Right Now In Redskins Nation?

[KDawg]

Actually, your name never came up when I had a conversation with someone else that actually prompted me to post that.

Well, I fit

Kind of, I guess.

MMMMMM!!! Well, I understand why Shanahan went to the 3-4 defense. The problem is that when things go wrong, we don't know how too fix it. So, the fans start pointing fingers. This team was 4-12 last year. Exactly what team did the defense stop last year? Stat wise, yeah the Skins were in the top 10. Lets be for real. Do you think offenses were afraid of the Skins defense? Shanahan came here with direction. Not all the players fit the scheme of the 3-4. But those players will be gone. And more than anything, the execution has been the problem. Poor tackling, missed assignments. Stop the sorry *** excuses!

What excuses? You're like a bad rash, you just keep coming back spouting the same stuff that's been debated time and time again. This isn't the thread for that discussion.

Yeah, it's a civil war: morons vs. non-morons. It's really not a fair fight though as it is evident that the morons heavily outnumber the non.

Sorry, I'm a bit cynical about our fans, currently, with the number of overreactions, meltdowns, and conniption fits I've witnessed just this season.

I resemble all of these remarks

I'd like to make two points. First, KDawg- while you willingly put yourself in Group One I think you miss some of the point of it. While I may not agree with everything you say, you always express rational thoughts with a solid basis for your opinions. To me that is the difference, critiquing the team with facts and logic is nothing at all like the raving wet-diaper faction rolling on the floor holding their breath 'til they turn blue. We've been through this before here, it is never a question of opposition or negativity, it is the way some lemmings go screaming over the edge in the most lunatic fashion imaginable.

Thanks, LD0.

[paloosa]

In the aftermath of another disappointing loss (this time to the Vikings), I was surprised at the amount of spotlight given to Redskins fans. Whether it be players calling out the fans, fans bickering over what really troubles the Redskins, or

, the current state of the burgundy and gold faithful have taken my attention away from the troubles of the actual team.

Each fan is entitled to their own opinion, and as fans of this team, no one fan's view of the team is "better" than anyone else's view, as each fan has the right express how they feel about the team they love.

All that being said, from all that I have heard and read (for most of this year, really), there seems to be two fundamental ideas butting heads here, with most fans leaning one way or the other, but no one fan fully falling into one extreme or the other:

Idea 1: Same old, Same old

What do you think fans should do? Put their heads together and come up with a solution to the Redskins woes. It is the same thing every year for the last 10 years no matter what coach or GM is here. Mediocracy. It wouldn't be bad if there was an improvement from one year to the next but like I have said in other posts on here. This team is like a yo-yo. One year they have a sign of life and make the playoffs and the next year they are in the basement looking up. We lose to teams like the Lions, Bengals, Rams, and all of the teams we should beat but end up losing to. Players and coaches will say that every team in the league is evenly talented but they are only saying that to make the situation seem better than it is. Why does Dallas, Giants, Eagles, Minnesota, Green Bay, Bears and other teams seem to win against these teams. You don't see Pittsburg losing to the Lions or the Rams or Oakland or even the Bengals that often. What I am saying is that we let teams stay in the game because we don't have a killer instinct and we don't want to embarrass anyone. Well the Eagles embarrassed this team and they didn't give it another thought of how anyone precieved them. The Media loved it, the Eagles loved it and so did the other teams loved it. No one except the fans of this team were outraged by the play and lack of fire the team had. The players came out and won the next game but then the next game they came out again flat at home. So how do you want the fan base to act? Go with the "We'll do better next time" attitude or do you start kicking @$$ and taking names. I prever the later to happen but the first example is what happens. So they need to get better and a "go for the knockout punch" attitude if they want to win Super Bowls.

The idea that nothing has really changed, this team keeps having the same struggles (o line, lack of playmakers, etc.) year after year and no matter who the coach is, no matter what group of players are brought in, the results are the same. I hear a lot of these phrases thrown around:

"How come we keep bringing in all these old players?!?"

"Oh yeah? Then why would you trade for McNabb for a 2nd and a 3rd?!"

"It's been the same thing every year! They look like they're not trying!"

"Why go to a 3-4 defense when you don't have 3-4 personnel?"

"Shanahan doesn't know how to draft well!"

"Kyle only got the job cause his daddy is coach!"

You also have some who react to one play or one game and somehow extrapolate a very strong opinion about the team's flaws, and it's solely based off of that very small sample size.

As mentioned earlier, there is no one fan that I've seen share ALL of the above beliefs, but I've seen a number of fans share bits and pieces of this viewpoint.

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[TheLongshot]

Actually, your name never came up when I had a conversation with someone else that actually prompted me to post that.

I hope I'm not one of those people. Then again, I don't post like I used to.

I can understand fans being very wary of what is going on. Snyder has gone to the well again getting a retread coach who has had success elsewhere and gave him a lot of control. Said coach trades for a veteran QB who has also had success in the NFL. Expectations get high despite the fact that the team was pretty crummy the previous year. Then, when it is clear that this team isnt' playoff quality, things start to fracture.

To me, it sounds a lot like when Gibbs got here. Difference being that Snyder does have a layer between him and the coach (Allen) and there is a lot less patience in the fanbase. I think more were willing to give Gibbs more time to get it right than they are with Shanahan. Course, there is the share of fall guys on this team (Haslett at the top of the list, maybe Kyle Shanahan next.) that insulates the head coach.

Personally, I don't think we are going to do anything until we actually have some stability in this organization. That means actually sticking to something for more than a couple of years. Even Gibbs couldn't quite do that, changing offenses midstream. I might not have been the biggest fan of getting Shanahan or the moves he has made so far, I know that he's the guy right now who needs the chance to turn this thing around.

I never had high expectations for this season and I would have been shocked if we were better than this. I think it was pretty clear that this team would have have to play pretty clean to eck out wins against good teams. It hasn't always happened.

[Stadium-Armory]

Nah. Last year was a revolt. This is just what you get with 15 years of losing.

[scruffylookin]

If there is a "civil war" then it is nothing new.

I think if you go back and look at ES over the years, you will find that every season in which the Redskins have gone south, there have been threads talking about the FO, the win now vs rebuilding philosophy, questionable offseason moves, what a "real" fan means, and the time honored favorite "Being a Realist vs. Being a Fairweather Fan" debate.

When the Redskins start the annual fade, fans lash out in their own way. It's nothing new and this season has not been any different.

[Special K]

I resemble all of these remarks

Oh shut up ya ding dong. You really don't. When I think of overreacting whiners, you'd be about the last poster to pop into my mind. As LD said, you actually have a rational basis for your opinions which you clearly lay out in your posts. I very much respect that, whether I agree or disagree (and I agree with you a lot)

[wrecker]

Well, this is directed at me, as I fit a lot of what's being said in group one. Nor will I back down from that stance, no matter who it is and how much I respect them calling me out for it.

The switch to the 3-4, with Haslett, was a poor decision. There were no other 3-4 coaches available. Okay. Then don't go to the 3-4. His other 3-4 choice, Zimmer, wasn't any better. Poor decision there.

And until I see an actual difference in philosophy, I won't buy that we've changed. I'm not willing to condemn Allen or Shanahan after one season (part of one season), but I'll believe change when I see it.

I still believe the McNabb deal was a poor decision. We could have used the picks to improve our roster with people that could have helped much more than McNabb has thus far.

I love this team. There is some bright spots. But the last few years (read: decades) have made it tough for me to be positive about everything...

I agree with you KDawg. I am cautiously optimistic but some of the decisions do not seem to have a long term solution in mind. It appears on the surface we are going to continue to plug holes with hit or miss aging players while giving up draft picks and sacrificing the future for continuous short term, household name brand solutions. Also it appears that the "scheme" still trumps the players skill sets. Until we can have a scheme and players that fit the scheme or a coach that will adapt his sheme to the players strengths I fear it will be "same old, same old" for years to come.

[ross3909]

Some people are optimistic some are not, can't fault anyone for whatever viewpoint they have. Last years disaster broke the camels back for me. I don't worry about the future of this team anymore, what will be will be is my new motto for the Redskins. I'll cheer for the team on Sunday and hope for the best but I don't worry about the team from Monday to Saturday as I once did. Some might consider me a lesser fan but it is definitely is easier to just accept things instead of dwelling on every little thing.

I am heading this direction myself, I hate it, but it is just tiring to get worked up for the same poor product.

[SMOSS89]

I agree that when you lose for 10+ years, there is always going to be 'wars' like this.

But I really do believe that 2009 changed everything for this franchise. The owner was embarrassed so badly that he knew he had to change something. Everyone he spoke to told him to get rid of Vinny, find a plan, and stick to it.

He has done just that, and now it's time for the patience part. I think people have a difficult time separating what happened earlier in Snyder's tenure with what's happening now. Now, the results have been roughly the same, and that's a fair argument, so it will take a few years to fix.

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

And for the pic I used this (I felt bad about using this, so I blurred the two guys out):

Just watched the video. Complete drunken idiots that should lose their season tickets if they have them.

[SWFLSkins]

Well, this is directed at me, as I fit a lot of what's being said in group one. Nor will I back down from that stance, no matter who it is and how much I respect them calling me out for it.

The switch to the 3-4, with Haslett, was a poor decision. There were no other 3-4 coaches available. Okay. Then don't go to the 3-4. His other 3-4 choice, Zimmer, wasn't any better. Poor decision there.

And until I see an actual difference in philosophy, I won't buy that we've changed. I'm not willing to condemn Allen or Shanahan after one season (part of one season), but I'll believe change when I see it.

I still believe the McNabb deal was a poor decision. We could have used the picks to improve our roster with people that could have helped much more than McNabb has thus far.

I love this team. There is some bright spots. But the last few years (read: decades) have made it tough for me to be positive about everything...

I don't believe for a second that you are over the top. In your view of your own negativity you are forgetting that you always layout your beliefs with sound football acumen. You had a lengthy discussion about the fans who just spew hatred for the team they profess to love. I do think Shanny and Bruce have a two fold plan, they hedged thier bets that they could muster a competitive team while rebuilding. Will that work? Short term probably not, but they tried. They also have not really overpaid for the talent they have brought in. McNabb is still worth a two, IMO and gave them a much better chance for productivity than the previous employee.

BTW, TK that was simply awesome and could easily be stickied. Rufus points are well made and I agree with most of them. SMOSS, yes you should get your own avatar or a gold star or a biscuit or something, this is the type of content that I come here for. And as a veteran of Civil war here having taken some hits, I think I and some should just take a day or two after a loss to collect themselves with rational thinking before spewing hate and nonsense.

I love the Redskins, don't like where they have been of late, but hope for a bright future.

[PF Chang]

I agree that when you lose for 10+ years, there is always going to be 'wars' like this.

But I really do believe that 2009 changed everything for this franchise. The owner was embarrassed so badly that he knew he had to change something. Everyone he spoke to told him to get rid of Vinny, find a plan, and stick to it.

He has done just that, and now it's time for the patience part. I think people have a difficult time separating what happened earlier in Snyder's tenure with what's happening now. Now, the results have been roughly the same, and that's a fair argument, so it will take a few years to fix.

I think most reasonable fans are on board for the patience. They just want to see an actual rebuild in the model that most successful teams have used. I understand that fans want the rebuild while still being competitive. It's not possible for a team with little in the way of young talent. We have young players, but not young talent. The Eagles can rebuild while being competitive because the young talent they drafted is starting to pay off. The Patriots are rebuilding their defense but staying competitive for the same reason. We can't do the same thing because we have neglected the draft for years, and the players that have kept us from being even worse than we have been are aging. A team with little in the way of young talent shouldn't trade a 2nd and another pick for a QB that will be finished by the time the rebuild is complete.

We've seen the same things for years now. This season just seems like a half-assed attempt at changing things. Within three years we'll have to replace even the rock-solid players on the team like Fletcher, and that's not to mention that basically every pick we have needs to be used on the lines. How are we going to fix this? Well, we can either have EXTREME patience, probably 4-5 years of it, or we can continue to trade premium draft picks and have glaring holes at a different position seemingly each year. I know which way I'd like to see the Redskins go, but the second route puts more fans in the seats and has us, year by year, praying that we can find a way to sneak in at 9-7 with our middling to bad record.

[SWFLSkins]

Yeah, it's a civil war: morons vs. non-morons. It's really not a fair fight though as it is evident that the morons heavily outnumber the non.

Sorry, I'm a bit cynical about our fans, currently, with the number of overreactions, meltdowns, and conniption fits I've witnessed just this season.

Like this in the GameDay thread.........

BTW, who voted one star, that guy sucks.

[TheLongshot]

I think most reasonable fans are on board for the patience. They just want to see an actual rebuild in the model that most successful teams have used. I understand that fans want the rebuild while still being competitive. It's not possible for a team with little in the way of young talent. We have young players, but not young talent. The Eagles can rebuild while being competitive because the young talent they drafted is starting to pay off. The Patriots are rebuilding their defense but staying competitive for the same reason. We can't do the same thing because we have neglected the draft for years, and the players that have kept us from being even worse than we have been are aging. A team with little in the way of young talent shouldn't trade a 2nd and another pick for a QB that will be finished by the time the rebuild is complete.

We've seen the same things for years now. This season just seems like a half-assed attempt at changing things. Within three years we'll have to replace even the rock-solid players on the team like Fletcher, and that's not to mention that basically every pick we have needs to be used on the lines. How are we going to fix this? Well, we can either have EXTREME patience, probably 4-5 years of it, or we can continue to trade premium draft picks and have glaring holes at a different position seemingly each year. I know which way I'd like to see the Redskins go, but the second route puts more fans in the seats and has us, year by year, praying that we can find a way to sneak in at 9-7 with our middling to bad record.

I wouldn't say the problem is mainly with neglecting the draft, but with the plan continually changing. Fact is, most successful teams are successful because 1) they find something worth building around and 2) they stick with it. That is something that both the Eagles and Patriots have that we do not.

[PF Chang]

I wouldn't say the problem is mainly with neglecting the draft, but with the plan continually changing. Fact is, most successful teams are successful because 1) they find something worth building around and 2) they stick with it. That is something that both the Eagles and Patriots have that we do not.

The plan changes, but it pretty much stays the same. We trade picks for players, somehow never questioning why their former teams are letting these guys go.

There's really a small number of successful teams in the league. Patriots, Colts, Ravens, Steelers, Eagles.. They all do it the same way. And this year is proving that it's clearly not just about the QB; that argument is tossed around when the Pats and Colts are brought up as teams with perennial success. I'd argue our problem IS with neglecting the draft -- you mention that successful teams are that way because they find something worth building around. That is true -- they find these pieces in the draft.

The Skins do it too. We have at least three great pieces worth building around, all drafted. Problem is, we don't have enough of those pieces whereas other teams do.

[TheLongshot]

The plan changes, but it pretty much stays the same. We trade picks for players, somehow never questioning why their former teams are letting these guys go.

There's really a small number of successful teams in the league. Patriots, Colts, Ravens, Steelers, Eagles.. They all do it the same way. And this year is proving that it's clearly not just about the QB; that argument is tossed around when the Pats and Colts are brought up as teams with perennial success. I'd argue our problem IS with neglecting the draft -- you mention that successful teams are that way because they find something worth building around. That is true -- they find these pieces in the draft.

The Skins do it too. We have at least three great pieces worth building around, all drafted. Problem is, we don't have enough of those pieces whereas other teams do.

You can't build through the draft if you keep changing the plan. You just can't. Guys who make sense for one coach might not make sense for another. Let's take Thomas and Tryon, for example. They likely were let go not because they were bad players, but they didn't fit in with what the coach was looking for. Two draft picks the previous coaching staff were high on seemed to have no role with the new staff. The decision to switch to a 3-4 which some of our players don't fit, the decision to trade for McNabb rather than go with a QB that was drafted for a head coach that is now two head coaches back, benching an G who previously was a solid starter, all of this is the price for having a new head coach and a new plan. We are always replacing pieces because we are always changing plans. In that environment, it is hard to get much value in drafts.

[SMOSS89]

This is basically it:

4 teams:

New England Patriots

Baltimore Ravens

Pittsburgh Steelers

Indianapolis Colts

These are the teams that are in it every year and will continue to be. Why? Because they:

a) Have stable front office and/or coaching staff

Have built a solid identity over the last decade or so

c) Acquired players, through good drafts and key FA pickups that fit that identity

d) Rinse and repeat

Every other team in the NFL wants to be those 4, both organizationally and on the field. I would LOVE for the Redskins would like to get there someday.

[PF Chang]

You can't build through the draft if you keep changing the plan. You just can't. Guys who make sense for one coach might not make sense for another. Let's take Thomas and Tryon, for example. They likely were let go not because they were bad players, but they didn't fit in with what the coach was looking for. Two draft picks the previous coaching staff were high on seemed to have no role with the new staff. The decision to switch to a 3-4 which some of our players don't fit, the decision to trade for McNabb rather than go with a QB that was drafted for a head coach that is now two head coaches back, benching an G who previously was a solid starter, all of this is the price for having a new head coach and a new plan. We are always replacing pieces because we are always changing plans. In that environment, it is hard to get much value in drafts.

This is chicken vs egg, but if we had built through the draft perhaps we wouldn't have had to change the plan so frequently. So let's assume that what we have going on right now is the plan. We're going 3-4, we're going with the offense. Therefore at this point, since we shouldn't be changing the plan, we can start to rebuild through the draft. Of course, the first thing we do is trade picks for McNabb and Brown (Brown is actually a trade I was theoretically fine with, as an aside). There is no chance that McNabb delivers the value that we should place on a high and a middle draft pick, because by trading for him, we've slowed down the rebuild even further.

Your argument about changing the plan should theoretically hold true for the Lions. This is a really depressing statement, but the Lions are way ahead of us. A good coach is going to adapt his scheme to what he has (Gibbs, 80's), and sadly, Detroit has a lot more in the cupboard than we do. We got to see it first hand. They have young drafted talent and they're filling in their holes. (It's also time to accept that Thomas is not a good player; if you are cut by us and by the worst team in the league, your issue isn't being a bad fit for the offense).

Ultimately the bleeding has to stop somewhere. I see your point about changing plans hurting our draft haul. Then now is the time to stop changing plans and start following the blueprint which great teams have set up for us -- and add our competitive advantage, our deep-pocketed owner. As futile as this team has been over 15 years, Washington is still a place that can attract that great free agent to put a solid team over the top. Just need to choose the right ones.

[thebluefood]

Like with most things, I'm in the middle. I certainly don't expect this team to go anywhere; but I feel optimistic about the future. I often have harsh words for the team, but I'm able to look at the positives, too. I think having a bit of two is best.

[illone]

Some people are optimistic some are not, can't fault anyone for whatever viewpoint they have. Last years disaster broke the camels back for me. I don't worry about the future of this team anymore, what will be will be is my new motto for the Redskins. I'll cheer for the team on Sunday and hope for the best but I don't worry about the team from Monday to Saturday as I once did. Some might consider me a lesser fan but it is definitely is easier to just accept things instead of dwelling on every little thing.

This is exactly how I feel. I used to take it personally when the team lost, now I could care less. I still cheer, but I've definitely lost interest.

[CrypticVillain]

This is basically it:

4 teams:

New England Patriots

Baltimore Ravens

Pittsburgh Steelers

Indianapolis Colts

These are the teams that are in it every year and will continue to be. Why? Because they:

a) Have stable front office and/or coaching staff

Have built a solid identity over the last decade or so

c) Acquired players, through good drafts and key FA pickups that fit that identity

d) Rinse and repeat

Every other team in the NFL wants to be those 4, both organizationally and on the field. I would LOVE for the Redskins would like to get there someday.

You might could add the Jets and Packers up there after we see if they can rinse and repeat.

Consistency is what the Redskins are lacking. I thought we had it when Gibbs was here for them four years, but we lost it. Personally, I really didn't like Shanahan when we first hired him, but overall he has done some good things in his first year, Next year will go a long way in determining if he will be able to bring us back to the glory years.

[wildbill1952]

Civil war this year? I think that last year was the most polarized I ever saw. No thread was ever started without the Jason Campbell debate coming up. If you brought up any topic any time in any forum on any topic, somehow the Campbell haters would take the thread and ruin it. For me, it was the absolute worst low I have ever seen on this board.

It doesn't matter if you were for or aginst the McNabb signing and the Campell trade. For this board, that was a Godsend. This board was doomed to die without it. This year may show some of the poison left from last year's civil war, but they are only minor skirmishes compared to last years vitriol.

[maskedsuperstar]

What excuses? You're like a bad rash, you just keep coming back spouting the same stuff that's been debated time and time again. This isn't the thread for that discussion.

You talk a lot of **** behind the computer.

[TK]

You talk a lot of **** behind the computer.

For a guy with 4 user notes from 3 different mods, you may not be talking here much longer unless you start to show you 'get it'.

[Boss_Hogg]

This is basically it:

4 teams:

New England Patriots

Baltimore Ravens

Pittsburgh Steelers

Indianapolis Colts

These are the teams that are in it every year and will continue to be. Why? Because they:

a) Have stable front office and/or coaching staff

Have built a solid identity over the last decade or so

c) Acquired players, through good drafts and key FA pickups that fit that identity

d) Rinse and repeat

Every other team in the NFL wants to be those 4, both organizationally and on the field. I would LOVE for the Redskins would like to get there someday.

The Eagles look like they have a young core of offensive talent, all homegrown with the exception of Vick. I would put them on that list.