WP: Redskins defense: Nine first-round draft picks, but ranked last in NFL

[ACW]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/20/AR2010112004087.html

Not really excerptable.

I got a question:one difference between 1 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB is lining up with a hand in the dirt vs. standing up...wouldn't it be easier to rush the passer standing up? :whoknows:

[CjSuAvE22]

This defense is getting by grimly on talent alone, this 3-4 change is killing the team you cant fault the players if the coaches choose a scheme that doesnt tend to their abilities.

[jnhay]

This defense is getting by grimly on talent alone, this 3-4 change is killing the team you cant fault the players if the coaches choose a scheme that doesnt tend to their abilities.

I don't know about that. Just because you changed your base defense doesn't mean you have to become the worst unit in the NFL. Putting all the blame on the players would be stupid, but it's also dumb to put all of it on the coaches. Coaches would be getting paid way more if it was all about them.

[MustangSteve]

I don't know about that. Just because you changed your base defense doesn't mean you have to become the worst unit in the NFL. Putting all the blame on the players would be stupid, but it's also dumb to put all of it on the coaches. Coaches would be getting paid way more if it was all about them.

From top 10 to dead last, this leans way more on the coach then the players. Nine 1st round draft picks on this defense, but their the worst defense in the NFL. Whats wrong with that picture?

[tshile]

'dead last'

such an overstatement.

[Wyvern]

I've accepted that the Skins will be running a 3-4, regardless. And predictably, the growing pains with the 3-4 are significant -- especially when you consider that most of the existing defensive personnel are better suited for the 4-3.

However, if the Skins coaching and FO are so dead-set on transitioning to the 3-4 in hopes of a Pittsburgh type of defense, they had to start sometime, regardless of the current personnel. So that means players like Carter, Haynesworth, Orakpo and Alexander would wind up playing out of position. And the results would be very uneven, and often not too satisfactory. Transitions are like that.

For me the real question is no longer "why make the transition?" -- rather it's "how well are the Skins really planning for a quick and effective transition?" For example, how many current players do the Skins coaches see as involved in the Redskins 'new' defense when it gets unveiled in 2011? ...In 2012?

Assuming we truly want to groom players to develop those 'reflex instincts' to react in the 3-4, then why are people like Carter, Daniels, Haynesworth, and even London Fletcher getting the lion's share of the snaps? Most of those players aren't going to be around in 2012!

.....Is the current plan "Transition PLUS The Future is Now"?

If the Skins are deadset on rebuilding and retooling the defense -- they should do it now-- and forget about the 2010 playoffs. Instead, I see a confused transitional policy, with a genuflect to "The Future is Now" mainly so the Skins don't lose their fanbase. But after the last couple of games -- continuing with this 50/50 approach doesn't seem to be working either.

When it becomes apparent the Skins aren't qualifying for the playoffs -- perhaps that is the time to discover who are the right people who can fit this 3-4 ---and give them most of the playing time. And this should be done, even at the expense of the more talented 4-3 holdovers and veterans in their final year. After all, game experience is a must for development of your personnel in a transition.

[KDawg]

I got a question:one difference between 1 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB is lining up with a hand in the dirt vs. standing up...wouldn't it be easier to rush the passer standing up? :whoknows:

No, it doesn't work like that. Some guys just aren't comfortable in a two point stance. Also, some guys read things a lot better when they're closer to them at the snap. Different players are better at different things.

[nonniey]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/20/AR2010112004087.html

Not really excerptable.

I got a question:one difference between 1 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB is lining up with a hand in the dirt vs. standing up...wouldn't it be easier to rush the passer standing up? :whoknows:

Being in a three point stance for one allows a player to get under the blocks. Both stances have their advantages (and disadvantages).

[@DCGoldPants]

just how Larry Michael was wrong to talk about the Skins highly ranked D in previous years. They still always folded when it mattered most, and that wasn't a stat they kept. Well this year there have been a lot of games where many yards are given up, but not a ton of points. Of course, including last week they imploded and gave up a ton of points also.

Its said a 3-4 takes 2 full seasons to get into place. We're more than 25% into the process. No point in turning back now.

[KDawg]

just how Larry Michael was wrong to talk about the Skins highly ranked D in previous years. They still always folded when it mattered most, and that wasn't a stat they kept. Well this year there have been a lot of games where many yards are given up, but not a ton of points. Of course, including last week they imploded and gave up a ton of points also.

Its said a 3-4 takes 2 full seasons to get into place. We're more than 25% into the process. No point in turning back now.

What?

We've allowed 30 points + more times this year than we did ALL of last year. We allow more points per game this year than we did last year to this point. This line of thinking is aggravating. This D doesn't need to fold in the clutch... It folds too early for it to matter in the clutch.

[Madison Redskin]

just how Larry Michael was wrong to talk about the Skins highly ranked D in previous years. They still always folded when it mattered most, and that wasn't a stat they kept.

They tended to fold when we needed them most, but let's talk about what it means to "fold." Typically, they would hold teams to about 10 points through 3 quarters and then they'd let the opponent score a touchdown in the 4th quarter. Now, if "folding" is giving up 17 points, with 7 in the 4th quarter, I WANT my defense to fold. Right now, we're allowing teams to score 17 points in a single quarter.

[@DCGoldPants]

What?

We've allowed 30 points + more times this year than we did ALL of last year. We allow more points per game this year than we did last year to this point. This line of thinking is aggravating. This D doesn't need to fold in the clutch... It folds too early for it to matter in the clutch.

We also need only one more win to best last season. So, what does that say? Last year it seemed we help in there till the end, then folded. Yes, there have been a number of games already where we fall apart when it counts. My point is that how D's are ranked don't tell the full story.

If your offense turns it over a lot. If the other team has a short field, or their D scores. It doesn't hurt our D's ranking as badly. Yards and Points are the main indicators. Where are the situational stats?

[KDawg]

We also need only one more win to best last season. So, what does that say? Last year it seemed we help in there till the end, then folded. Yes, there have been a number of games already where we fall apart when it counts. My point is that how D's are ranked don't tell the full story.

If your offense turns it over a lot. If the other team has a short field, or their D scores. It doesn't hurt our D's ranking as badly. Yards and Points are the main indicators. Where are the situational stats?

More wins does not equal a better team. When you're rebuilding, constantly finishing 7-9, 8-8 is a curse, not a prize.

Your argument is essentially saying: Hey, look, I'd rather take a defense that allows 26 points per game and 415 yards a game than a defense that gives up 20 points per game and 320 yards per game... I don't have Blache's stats handy, so forgive me if these are slightly off, but they're damn close)

[@DCGoldPants]

More wins is better. I'm sorry, but to me it shows a system being put into place and something to build on. Worse to First would be nice, but its not the norm.

and no, my argument is saying that there have been some games where we only gave up 7, 12, 13 and 14 points. Does that tell you more or less than blowout loses? How many points have other D's scored off of us this year? Do you subtract that from the math?

right now lets GET to 8-8. Then see if we're constantly finishing there. 4-12 to 8-8 is a step in the right direction. ESPECIALLY when you're rebuilding.

[KDawg]

More wins is better. I'm sorry, but to me it shows a system being put into place and something to build on. Worse to First would be nice, but its not the norm.

and no, my argument is saying that there have been some games where we only gave up 7, 12, 13 and 14 points. Does that tell you more or less than blowout loses? How many points have other D's scored off of us this year? Do you subtract that from the math?

right now lets GET to 8-8. Then see if we're constantly finishing there. 4-12 to 8-8 is a step in the right direction. ESPECIALLY when you're rebuilding.

Completely disagree. How many times have we seen teams, including our very own Redskins go 10-6 or 8-8 or whatever and then the next year tank? We did it twice in Gibbs second tenure. More wins does not equal better teams. Things have to pass the eyeball test.

Most of us were embarrassed by the Zorn era not only because his teams stunk, but factor in Vinny Cerrato and Zorn's ridiculous trick plays (read: Swinging Gate) and you have a team that was looked upon poorly, as they should have been. But what, exactly, on this years team is better than last years?Not quarterback play. Quarterback leadership, sure. But not play. Defensively we're slightly better on 3rd downs and we're better on turnovers. We're worse in points and yards.

If anything, I see more progress being made on offense than I do on defense, and our offense is pathetic.

[joejccva71]

We need to switch back to the 4-3 next season. This is ridiculous.

[@DCGoldPants]

Completely disagree. How many times have we seen teams, including our very own Redskins go 10-6 or 8-8 or whatever and then the next year tank? We did it twice in Gibbs second tenure. More wins does not equal better teams. Things have to pass the eyeball test.

Most of us were embarrassed by the Zorn era not only because his teams stunk, but factor in Vinny Cerrato and Zorn's ridiculous trick plays (read: Swinging Gate) and you have a team that was looked upon poorly, as they should have been. But what, exactly, on this years team is better than last years?Not quarterback play. Quarterback leadership, sure. But not play. Defensively we're slightly better on 3rd downs and we're better on turnovers. We're worse in points and yards.

If anything, I see more progress being made on offense than I do on defense, and our offense is pathetic.

Then we're not going to agree. I don't think what you're looking for exists, and you can't assume a jump from 4 wins to 6-8 wins isn't going to be followed by a drop back to 4 wins. Just as you can't assume they will jump to 10 wins. You need to see the rest of this movie with this front office and coaching staff. First time since Marty that Vinny has been gone. It will take time to undo that damage.

[KDawg]

Then we're not going to agree. I don't think what you're looking for exists, and you can't assume a jump from 4 wins to 6-8 wins isn't going to be followed by a drop back to 4 wins. Just as you can't assume they will jump to 10 wins. You need to see the rest of this movie with this front office and coaching staff. First time since Marty that Vinny has been gone. It will take time to undo that damage.

You wanna know why I can't see things through rosey glasses? Jim Haslett. I can't stand that we hired him to run any defense, let alone make the transition to the 3-4 with him. He shouldn't have been hired. His track records speak for themselves. He's not a great coordinator and never has been. Since 2000 he's averaging over 24 points allowed per game. Ten year sample size. You have faith in that? Bless you.

I believe more in Mike and Kyle Shanahan to have the offense progress. But quite honestly, I don't trust Shanahan making defensive decisions, and Haslett is an example of that.

[@DCGoldPants]

again, historically it takes 2 seasons to get a 3-4 in place.

Whether or not its the right thing to do, isn't what I'm saying. What I mean is that when they switched this past offseason, it was safe to believe this year it would be rough at times since they need to get the scheme and people in place.

Here is what I remember from the 4-3 last year. From my seats in section 140, seeing Greg Blatche's D on a goalline stand against the Giants. BEFORE the snap he turns away from the field and starts walking the other direction......snap...Giants score.

Having the right guy in place means a lot. Seems we are getting more turnovers this year and that's a nice start. I'm willing to see what happens after another offseason and some roster changes on D.

[KDawg]

Having the right guy in place means a lot. Seems we are getting more turnovers this year and that's a nice start. I'm willing to see what happens after another offseason and some roster changes on D.

And again, Haslett is not the right guy. But for our sake as fans, I sure hope you're right and I'm wrong. Seriously.

[jnhay]

From top 10 to dead last, this leans way more on the coach then the players. Nine 1st round draft picks on this defense, but their the worst defense in the NFL. Whats wrong with that picture?

Which players are executing like 1st rounders should on a game-to-game basis? Not many, and that's on the players. It's not always the scheme that gets them beat.

[@DCGoldPants]

Well, I'm willing to wait and see on this one. I'm willing to give Allen and Shanny more than one offseason and half a season, especially after the past decade. We all know the problems start at the top, but can't change that.

“Patience is the companion of wisdom.” - St. Augustine

[KDawg]

Well, I'm willing to wait and see on this one. I'm willing to give Allen and Shanny more than one offseason and half a season, especially after the past decade. We all know the problems start at the top, but can't change that.

“Patience is the companion of wisdom.” - St. Augustine

I don't think I said anything about Allen or Shanahan's ability to make this team better in the long term... I don't trust Shanahan on his defensive evaluations and I definitely don't trust Haslett. No need for the lecture on patience. I've been patient for twenty years

[jnhay]

Well, I'm willing to wait and see on this one. I'm willing to give Allen and Shanny more than one offseason and half a season, especially after the past decade. We all know the problems start at the top, but can't change that.

“Patience is the companion of wisdom.” - St. Augustine

Me too. It's one thing to get your hopes up, but it's another to be delusional in thinking that it can all be fixed in an offseason. People will point to new coaches that have been successful in their first year(hence the reason for hope), but most of them aren't. And that doesn't mean things won't turn out well in the long run.

[@DCGoldPants]

I don't think I said anything about Allen or Shanahan's ability to make this team better in the long term... I don't trust Shanahan on his defensive evaluations and I definitely don't trust Haslett. No need for the lecture on patience. I've been patient for twenty years

If you're right about our D-Coord, then its going to take at least through next year before he's dropped. I feel pretty confident about that considering how stubborn Shanny has been about other choices.