300,000 Iraqis Join March to Mourn Cleric

[Phat Hog]

No offense to the people of Iraq – but it seems that the concept of Aristotelian thinking is clearly absent.

WP Article

300,000 Iraqis Join March to Mourn Cleric

By SAMEER N. YACOUB

The Associated Press

Sunday, August 31, 2003; 11:46 AM

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Beating their chests and calling for revenge, more than 300,000 Muslims began a two-day, 110-mile march Sunday to the holy city of Najaf to mourn a cherished Shiite leader assassinated in a car bombing.

The U.S. military reported that 125 people died in the attack on the Imam Ali mosque, a dramatic increase from earlier hospital reports of 85.

Najaf Governor Haider Mehadi requested Sunday that the FBI help Iraqi police investigate the truck bombing, a Coalition Provisional Authority official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. FBI officials were to travel to Najaf shortly to meet with authorities there, he said.

FBI agents are leading the investigations into both the Aug. 7 bombing of the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad and the attack on U.N. headquarters 12 days later.

The faithful followed a flatbed truck carrying a symbolic coffin for Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, a moderate cleric and Saddam Hussein opponent. Authorities said they could only find al-Hakim's hand, watch, wedding band and pen in the wreckage.

"Our revenge will be severe on the killers," read one of the many banners carried by mourners. Red and white roses were laid on the coffin and a large portrait of al-Hakim was placed in front of it.

The Iraqi police handling the investigation into Friday's bombing say they have arrested 19 men - many of them foreigners and all with admitted links to al-Qaida - in connection with the blast.

However, many Shiites blame the cleric's death on Saddam loyalists and the U.S.-led coalition, which they say has failed to provide adequate security in the country since the dictator's fall.

In Najaf, Maj. Rick Hall, spokesman for the 1st Batallion, 7th Marines said the death toll now stood at 125 with 142 wounded, some seriously. He also said the Marine transfer of the south-central territory including Najaf to an international force lead by Poland, set for this week, had been put on hold.

"We now want to stay here and assist as much as possible," Hall said. U.S. forces are questioning two men handed over by the Iraqis but will likely release them, he said.

Hall said the involvement of al-Qaida members in the Friday explosion was "an option we are looking at."

He denied reports that the Marines would patrol around the Imam Ali shrine, which is the most sacred Shiite site in Iraq and the third holiest in the world after Mecca and Medina.

He said U.S. forces had offered Marine patrols to the interim Governing Council in Baghdad and religious leaders in Najaf. An answer was expected in a day or two, he said.

As the mass of mourners left Baghdad, they carried angry banners denouncing both Saddam and the U.S. president. "Saddam and Bush will not humiliate us," one read.

The procession began at the al-Kadhimiyah shrine, a sacred Shiite site in the capital, and was expected to grow as it wove its way south. The marchers were to stop at holy sites in Karbala before arriving at the Najaf mosque for the funeral Tuesday.

Police detained two Iraqis and two Saudis shortly after the Friday attack, and they provided information leading to the arrest of 15 other suspects, said a senior police official in Najaf, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Two Kuwaitis and six Palestinians with Jordanian passports were among the suspects, the official said. The remainder were Iraqis and Saudis, the official said, without giving a breakdown.

The men arrested claimed the recent bombings were designed to keep Iraq in a state of chaos, police said. The Najaf police official, who led the interrogation of the captives, said the prisoners described plots to assassinate political and religious leaders and to damage power plants, water supplies and oil pipelines.

Initial information shows the foreigners entered Iraq from neighboring Kuwait, Syria and Jordan, the official said, adding that they belong to the Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam.

"They are all connected to al-Qaida," the official said.

Wahhabism is the strict, fundamentalist branch of Sunni Islam from which al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden draws spiritual direction. Based in Saudi Arabia, its followers show little tolerance for non-Wahhabi Sunnis and Shiites.

Hall said American forces have had no access to those in Iraqi police custody, but said he had heard numbers ranging from nine to 19.

Al-Hakim had only returned in May from exile in Iran. While backing the formation of an Islamic state in Iraq, he had also urged unity among rival Shiite factions and tolerance of the American-led coalition. His brother, Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim is a member of the U.S.-appointed governing council.

Police said there were similarities between the mosque bombing and two recent attacks.

The bomb at the Imam Ali Shrine - the burial place of the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad - was made from the same type of materials used in the Aug. 19 truck bombing at the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, which killed 23 people, and the Jordanian Embassy vehicle bombing Aug. 7, which killed 19, the Iraqi official said.

The bombing in Najaf added urgency to U.S. plans to create a 7,500-strong Iraqi militia to take over civil defense of the country's cities. Gen. John Abizaid, the head of U.S. Central Command, announced plans to create the new militia, called the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, on July 21.

A day before the bombing, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez said mobilizing the Iraqi militia - rather than bringing in more American or coalition troops to Iraq - was the key to stabilizing security.

"America must reach out to its friends and allies in Iraq to share the burden of defeating Saddam once and for all," Ahmad Chalabi, Iraqi National Congress leader and member of the U.S.-chosen interim Governing Council wrote in Sunday's Washington Post.

"You have the firepower and mobility, we have the local knowledge and intelligence. Only if we work as true partners will we achieve the victory that is so vital to both our countries," he wrote.

For some Governing Council members, that partnership is developing too slowly. In response to the bombing, a highly respected Shiite cleric suspended his membership in the council, citing a lack of security.

Mohammed Bahr al-Uloum, in exile in London until Saddam's ouster, said Saturday that his return to the council depended on the U.S.-led coalition's handing security matters to Iraqis, so that Muslim shrines could be under Islamic protection.

The U.S. army announced Sunday that a soldier drowned a day after his Humvee plunged into a canal during preparations for a raid on the outskirts of al-Abbarah, 50 miles north of Baghdad.

The death raised the number of U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq to 283. Of those, 68 have died in combat since May 1, when President Bush declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq.

[Larry]

Oh, I get it.

It's our fault because we didn't prevent it.

(Now,if this convinces a bunch of Iraqis that maybe hiding terrorists isn't in their country's interests, any more, then this could actually turn out to be good for both our countries.)

[Phat Hog]

Originally posted by Larry

Oh, I get it.

It's our fault because we didn't prevent it.

Almost have it there Larry... but you forgot one part:

"get out now! but it's your fault because you did not protect us (prevent it)"

The same people who now have the freedom to demand that we get out of their country, accuse us of not protecting them from themselves.

:doh: :mad:

[Ghost of]

In fairness, a lot of the scum we've been killing off and arresting have been foreigners: Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians.

one of the only places in the world where neighboring morons uninvolved in the conflict will go to blow up kids and other civilians to make some statement to their god.

[Larry]

Well, what do they expect? We can't even close our own boarders.

Seriously, the reason the terrorists have been so successfull is because the "innocents" are protecting and helping them.

In this country, what really ended racism (or as much of it as has ended) was when it stopped being socially acceptable.

(Although, folks keep trying to preserve prejudice against gays as acceptable, by trying to paint themselves as Stalwhart Defenders of Sacred Values, sort of like the way the KKK tried to paint themselves as defenders of the White Race from the barbarian hoardes. Hopefully, they'll come to the same result. But, that's another subject.)

I keep hoping, after attacks like this, that the same kind of thing will happen in Iraq, and being a terrorist won't be "cool" any more. And, when that happens, then the war's really over.

[Chief skin]

The media fails to bring up the point that MUSLIMS are MURDERING MUSLIMS, Isalm forbids the killing of a fellow muslim.

This small detail should be spewed all over the airwaves of the middle east, maybe it would take the blame off the american peace keepers, nation builders and place it where it belongs

[TheKurp]

The point here that if the U.S. can't protect leaders who openly support the U.S. then our task is substantially more difficult.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This is probably going to come across as ignorant and I wouldn't mind someone telling me why this isn't an option:

If they want us to leave, why don't we leave?

We were there to rid them of a tyrant and protect ourselves from possible weapons of mass destruction. What would be the harm of allowing them to go from here if that's truly what they want?

[Kilmer17]

Because the tyrrant and his minions would return.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Again, I don't know much about all this...but would he really go back and take over Iraq? I mean, doesn't that mean that we'd be in there like stink on a monkey?

[Kilmer17]

Not him per se, but the Baath party for sure.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Oh okay, I wasn't sure how strong that party was with him as a non-factor. I guess I tend to look at things in a simplistic way.

[kaffeen]

This whole thing is a big clusterf*ck. The Bush administration has failed to justify their actions and now they are unable to handle the situation that their actions have caused. The Iraqi people have some justification in their feelings and to deny that is ignorant. Most importantly, American soldiers are dying. This whole thing needs to be handled by the UN. The fact that Bush won't let the UN take over is just one more indication that this whole thing was, and continues to be, about OIL and GREED.

[Kilmer17]

Yeah!!!!! Too bad that's just Liberal rhetoric.

[kaffeen]

Kilmer, I don't deny I'm a liberal, however, IMO, it is the truth and has nothing to do with partisan politics or rhetoric. I respect the opinion that you have, however, you should be aware that many Republicans and Libertarians have the same opinion as I do.

[Kilmer17]

And most Americans do not.

[kaffeen]

I really doubt that most Americans who know the facts and who are intelligent and educated would disagree with me. Regardless, just because a belief may be in the minority, it does not make it any less valid or true.

Most people, regardless of nationality, are willing to be a part of the herd. It doesn't really matter what the stampede is about, they are going to follow regardless (or to quote Bush "irregardless").

Again, I respect your opinion and hope you will respect mine.

[Kilmer17]

As of today, 31 countries have personell in Iraq helping to rebuild.

We have not taken any oil (though our gas prices could use the help)

We have overseen the first free election of any kind in Iraq (a mayor race).

We have restored power/water and other utils to most of the country (Saddam, not the US cut it all off)

Your calls of greed and oil are part of the vitriolic Bushating that the Dems are spouting ad nauseum.

[kaffeen]

In what capacity are those 31 countries helping us and under what flag/organization? The United Nations is not part of the process, until that happens no country of significance will contribute the same resources and the same capacity as the United States and Britain.

We may not have taken oil directly without cost, but make no mistake that we have benefited and, perhaps more importantly, will continue to benefit exponentially from Iraqi oil exports.

One mayoral race is nothing to brag about. Besides, it wasn't exactly free election, it was supervised by us and dictated by our interests. I didn't see any radical's running for mayor, did you?

We have not restored power/water/utilities to most of the country. You have your facts wrong I believe.

My opinion, as I've tried to point out earlier, has nothing to do with being a Democrat. I'd be willing to bet you lifted that quote from one of your favorite radio personalities.

[Kilmer17]

In what capacity are those 31 countries helping us and under what flag/organization? The United Nations is not part of the process, until that happens no country of significance will contribute the same resources and the same capacity as the United States and Britain.

Yes, the mighty UN, who let millions die in Somalia, in Bosnia, and in Iraq before we went without their blessing. What exactly would they bring to the table except making the US bow to their wishes?

We may not have taken oil directly without cost, but make no mistake that we have benefited and, perhaps more importantly, will continue to benefit exponentially from Iraqi oil exports.

How exactly? proof please.

One mayoral race is nothing to brag about. Besides, it wasn't exactly free election, it was supervised by us and dictated by our interests. I didn't see any radical's running for mayor, did you?

Of course not, any success we make is easy to dismiss. So much easier to make up negatives.

We have not restored power/water/utilities to most of the country. You have your facts wrong I believe

Yes we have. Read something outside the Dem talking points memo for proof.

You may actually believe what you post. If so, bully for you. Unfortunately it sounds EXACTLY like the anti-Bush, Anti-American, crap that the left spews without fact or figure to back it up. It's the same crap that right after the start of the war said we were losing. That our soldiers had no ammo or food and water. That the fighters were bogged down. When in fact it was the most successfull military operation EVER.

[kaffeen]

Kilmer, I could go on, but I see that we are on opposite sides of the issue and really have no middle ground. I'm willing to agree to disagree. History will prove one of us right and that is good enough for me.

[Riggo-toni]

Originally posted by kaffeen

Kilmer, I don't deny I'm a liberal, however, IMO, it is the truth and has nothing to do with partisan politics or rhetoric. I respect the opinion that you have, however, you should be aware that many Republicans and Libertarians have the same opinion as I do.

Libertarians detest the UN, and with good reason.

Didn't you notice the bombing of the UN headquarters? The UN is hated by Iraqis, who view it as an ally of Saddam, and it is even more hated by Al Quaeda, who mistakenly view it as a mere puppet of the US.

I do not dispute that the Bush administration greatly underestimated the difficulty inherent in postwar Iraq. It seems quite evident that they ignored intelligence reports, just as Kennedy and LBJ ignored CIA warnings against involvement in Vietnam.

Ultimately, the best solution lies in doing what our country is unwilling to do, and what Turkey and various other countries with Kurdish minorities are unwilling to accept. Iraq is not a nation; it is a b@stard creation of the British, just as Yugoslavia was an illegitimate creation of Woodrow Wilson. It should be allowed to disintegrate into 3 countries: Kurdistan in the north, a Sunni nation in the West, and a Shiite nation in the South. It was divided thusly under the Ottomans, and should be so again.

As for the usual histrionics about oil and greed - give me a break! Do you really think we're going to get enough oil to make up for the hundreds of billions of dollars we're gonna shell out to rebuild the place? If we went to war automatically to secure oil, why wouldn't we have found an excuse to intervene in places like Venezuela or Costa Rica during their political turmoils? Or did you not realize we get more oil from them then we ever did from Iraq?

[kaffeen]

Riggo, I may be mistaken, but I believe we get most of our oil from Kuwait. Once upon a time, Iraq was a huge supplier as well. We decided to help one dicatorship and take over the other, it's really as simple as that. I don't believe that the United States has ever done anything that is not in their best interest. This is not a humanitarian deed (despite all the Bush rhetoric). If so, those Kuwait people are "evil-doers" too.

I'm curious, why do you think that the Bush administration is unwilling to let the UN take over?

[Kilmer17]

Actually we get most of our oil from Canada. Kuwait and Iraq are way down the list.

I think we wont let the UN in, because the UN has said they will not go in unless they get to run the show. We need to look out for our interests and those of Iraqis before the interests of an organization like the UN that sees fit to name Libya to head the Human rights commision or Iran the weapons committee.

[luckydevil]

You know what is intellectually dishonest the argument that the war was for oil.

If the United States really needed or wanted Oil, we would have allowed Saddam to continue to make WMD in exchange for oil. War and profit never go hand in hand.