Chachie Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Did you all read the piece about Kwame in Philly last year? Of COURSE we did not read the piece about Kwame in Philly last year, Curse! What are you thinking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Of COURSE we did not read the piece about Kwame in Philly last year, Curse! What are you thinking? I promise it's worth the read http://www.libertyballers.com/2013/11/24/5139664/the-complete-oral-history-of-kwame-browns-time-with-the-philadelphia-76ers-sixers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1970039-john-wall-or-kyrie-irving-who-ya-got John Wall or Kyrie Irving: Who Ya Got? The Eastern Conference has many young point guards filled with potential and seemingly guaranteed of a bright future, but two stand out above the rest—Kyrie Irving and John Wall. They've each enjoyed stellar individual seasons for the Cleveland Cavaliers and Washington Wizards, respectively, earning nods on the All-Star team. Irving was voted in as a starting backcourt member due to his immense popularity, and Wall was a shoo-in for the reserves. Both are great, but who's better? To answer the question, I'll be breaking down the three major facets of their games: offense, defense and intangibles. After determining the winner in each category, it'll be time to move on to the overall summation. So, who ya got? Edited February 25, 2014 by BRAVEONAWARPATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1970039-john-wall-or-kyrie-irving-who-ya-got I think that author tried too hard to make the case for Kyrie's offense seem superior. Kyrie is a better shooter, including a better off the dribble jump shooter. That's literally it. Kyrie isn't even on the same planet as Wall as a facilitator. The TO numbers are pretty meaningless without the context of their playing styles and those of other PGs. Wall's assist and turnover numbers are similar to Curry's and Lawson's, other comparable playmakers. Kyrie's turnover #s are much lower because he doesn't make the kind of plays the other guys do. Really the only playmaking PG out there whose numbers stand out is CP3's, and he's playing in his own league right now. And Wall is handicapped by the same crap offense here. And Wall's teammates are largely the same ones who went 5-28 without him last season, and drop to the league's worst offense BY FAR the moment he steps off the court. Wall is never going to be the shooter Kyrie is, but Kyrie is also never going to be the passer or defender that Wall is. Kyrie is absolutely hopeless defensively and you either have the kind of passing gene that Wall has or you don't. The effortlessness and frequency of the plays Wall makes for teammates is as rare as it gets. Wall does a far better job of making his team better, he's a better player. I'm not sure you can build a playoff team with the formula of Kyrie and a bunch of role players like we're doing around Wall right now. The bit about the intangibles is a reach though. Wall has everything you want intangibly, we've known that from day one. But I don't think you can conclude a whole lot about Kyrie's intangibles. He says the right things publicly and a lot of the stuff you hear behind the scenes seems like innuendo and speculation. He did get benched for not playing hard enough, but I doubt his intangibles are bad enough to damn him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 John Wall will never be as good as Kyrie, because John Wall did the dougie. /Cowherd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I started to believe it when Beal was carried off the court, literally carried, and then was back starting the very next game. But it's official now. Clearly my screen name has done it's job. Any timetable on his return? Please do not say such things. If the curse is gone, we'll notice it. But a player getting injured does not prove the lack of existence of a curse. You're really starting to sound like Buchantz when we've got somebody at the free throw line ("he hasn't missed in his last 18 attempts......ooh and he just missed two"). Edited February 25, 2014 by Thinking Skins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Kyrie is absolutely hopeless defensively and you either have the kind of passing gene that Wall has or you don't. The effortlessness and frequency of the plays Wall makes for teammates is as rare as it gets. Wall does a far better job of making his team better, he's a better player. I'm not sure you can build a playoff team with the formula of Kyrie and a bunch of role players like we're doing around Wall right now. When I first read your statement, my immediate thought was the Philly teams in the early 2000s built around AI and his scoring and a crappy team otherwise. But the difference is that AI played monster defense, so he was more than just a scorer. Maybe a better comparison for Kyrie is Gilbert and the Wizards of the 05 era? But he had 2 (and only 2) other scorers that the offense was built around. I don't see that in Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Time for Booker and Seraphim to step up. The Wizards need to learn how to win without Nene. At least we'll be getting him back for the playoffs. Yeah I just went there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hey, what are your opinions on the guys we may be bringing in? I've been reading about Justin Hamilton and I'm intrigued because he's a non-european 7 footer and we're a team without size. This is what's at NBADraft.net (which i know isn't respected too much here, but still) Strengths: Near 7'0" center that uses his size very well ... Big frame, weighs about 260 lbs with room to add a little more muscle ... Solid quickness and speed for his size ... Lives around the basket ... Scores well in the post because of his size and soft touch ... Has a nice looking baby push shot when he turns over his left shoulder, and a developing left-handed hook when he turns over his right ... Keeps the ball high and away from any secondary defenders ... An excellent mid-range shooter ... Has a great looking turnaround jumper, with a feathery touch out to about 16 feet ... Very good free-throw shooter (shot over 78% from the stripe in 2011-2012) ... Adequate defender ... Solid area rebound because of his size ... Weaknesses: Not much of an athlete ... Doesn't explode off his feet ... Plays below the rim … Lacks great finishing ability ... While he has a solid all-around skill-set, he's not exceptional at anything ... Doesn't have a go-to move or a surefire way to score against NBA talent ... Overall: Hamilton possesses both size and skill, but won't stand out in the NBA in any way ... His potential is limited by his lack of athleticism and he really doesn't profile as a future starter ... However, if a team is looking for size off the bench, Hamilton could prove useful and provide value as a mid-late second round pick ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuposse87 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would have signed earl clark, we need floor spacing. Wall probably could get Earl amazing looks. I mean look at what happened to Ariza. That and Clark has almost a better standing reach then Gortat, he's a bit skinny, but he has legit 4 size, something outside of Nene, that is severely lacking... Gooden....jesus, EG has no pride. Needs to be run the **** over by a truck. He's a blemish on humanity and must be purged. So tired of his cum dumpster ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Why is everyone so down on Drew Gooden? He's on a ****ing 10 day contract! Just reading the comments section on BF about the signing, and you would have thought the team offered a deal to El Chapo. Who cares if he didn't want to play here a few years back...it was a COMPLETELY different team and was in disarray. Let's see what he can do in limited minutes. For a 10 day contract, who else would you have rather seen the team sign? *Quick question...if we had signed Big Baby for the rest of the season, what would he have been owed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeWolf990 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 When I first read your statement, my immediate thought was the Philly teams in the early 2000s built around AI and his scoring and a crappy team otherwise. But the difference is that AI played monster defense, so he was more than just a scorer. Maybe a better comparison for Kyrie is Gilbert and the Wizards of the 05 era? But he had 2 (and only 2) other scorers that the offense was built around. I don't see that in Cleveland.whoa, in what world did AI play monster defense? He was a great at playing passing lanes, but Iverson was a horrendous defender, lol. Kyrie is a better scorer than Wall and a better shooter. The other thing Kyrie has over Wall is that he is better off the ball. But Kyrie is not a facilitator. I think he can grow into a better one, but right now he isnt in Wall's world. Wall is also really good at setting the pace of a game. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Personally, I think Kyrie is in the mold of Gilbert Arenas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 whoa, in what world did AI play monster defense? He was a great at playing passing lanes, but Iverson was a horrendous defender, lol. Kyrie is a better scorer than Wall and a better shooter. The other thing Kyrie has over Wall is that he is better off the ball. But Kyrie is not a facilitator. I think he can grow into a better one, but right now he isnt in Wall's world. Wall is also really good at setting the pace of a game. I think Wall is a better transition scorer and better finisher at the rim than Kyrie. Wall is shooting .673 at the rim this season and Kyrie is shooting .581 and Wall has converted at a better percentage inside than Kyrie the previous two seasons too. He also finished at the rim with more volume each year. Wall is a bigger slashing threat. Wall's ability to score in transition without numbers is unique too. He can score against 1 on 3s and 4s. He just turns on those jets to catch people flat footed in the open court and then he has the strength to finish through the contact. It all comes back to Wall being bigger, faster, stronger, and more explosive than Kyrie. It makes him harder to stop from getting to the rim and converting. Kyrie's superior scoring comes solely from being a superior jump shooter. Being better playing off the ball comes from that. Better off the dribble jump shooter by far. Better three point shooter. And a better catch and shoot guy. Kyrie is a true knock down shooter IMO. But Wall is better at pretty much everything else. He does more to make his team better and that's one of the big reasons why Wall's team is progressing despite the fact it's a bunch of role players and developmental guys around him while Kyrie's team hasn't started taking the next step yet (and his FO got fired). It's not like Wall didn't play with some garbage players. It's not like Grunfeld is much better than Chris Grant was. And it's not like Wittman is even as good a coach as Mike Brown. Wall is better for now. And Beal is going to be a lot better than Dion Waiters and he and Wall are going to be a much better fit together. The other thing that's worrisome about Kyrie is that he hasn't really gotten better since his rookie year. He missed his one year at Duke pretty much. He's not evolving in the way a young star player is needs to in order to take the next step. Cleveland will absolutely match any offer Kyrie gets as an RFA, assuming he doesn't sign early like Wall did. Leaving Cleveland would mean turning down the extension and signing the QO. At which point Cleveland would have to trade him because that would be a clear signal he's not coming back. I just can't see him doing that. One max contract extension makes you fabulously wealthy. And Kyrie has an injury history. But damn, Cleveland is going to have to get something figured out around him. Or else he is not going to stay their after he hits UFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Personally, I think Kyrie is in the mold of Gilbert Arenas. I can see that. But Gil was bigger and stronger than Kyrie. I don't see Kyrie getting to the FT line like Arenas. But Kyrie also strikes me as more serious and professional than Gil. I don't see him flaming out like Gil did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Time for Booker and Seraphim to step up. The Wizards need to learn how to win without Nene. At least we'll be getting him back for the playoffs. Yeah I just went there. It's going to be hard for him to come back right before the playoffs. I think we still makes the playoffs. And I think we still have a good chance to make it as a decent seed. I'm hoping that Seraphin and Booker step up and Seraphin takes this opportunity and runs with it and proves to us we need to keep him around moving forward. I just don't really expect it. So instead I'm hoping Wall goes nuts and closes out the year like he did last season. We were .500 with him even though we tanked the last six games or so and shut practically everyone down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Gonna be without Seraphin tonight too. Out with sore right knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Al Harrington to the rescue? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I promise it's worth the read http://www.libertyballers.com/2013/11/24/5139664/the-complete-oral-history-of-kwame-browns-time-with-the-philadelphia-76ers-sixers Good read. The problem with Kwame was, he was so immature and his head was far behind his body, maturity wise. He would have benefitted going to college for minimum of 2 years. He had no business not only being the #1 overall pick that year, but being in the draft at all. I'd like to think I knew a fair amount about the prospects and the draft back then (maybe not as much now) and for the life of me, this guy literally came out of nowhere. I'd never heard of him, up until about 6 weeks before the draft. Knew nothing about him. I was set to take Shane Battier. I thought he would be the best of basically a garbage draft. I laugh when I remember looking at us win the ping pong balls and scream at Stern through the TV, "oh, NOW you give us the #1 pick you son of a *****, not when Patrick Ewing, David Robinson or Shaquille O'Neal was there." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeWolf990 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think Wall is a better transition scorersure and better finisher at the rim than Kyrie. Wall is shooting .673 at the rim this season and Kyrie is shooting .581 and Wall has converted at a better percentage inside than Kyrie the previous two seasons too. He also finished at the rim with more volume each year. Wall is a bigger slashing threat.this is amazing to me. I always thought Kyrie was better around the rim than Wall, but the numbers dont show it. I think Kyrie has better variety of shots than Wall, but Wall is by far better than dude. Kyrie's superior scoring comes solely from being a superior jump shooter. Being better playing off the ball comes from that. Better off the dribble jump shooter by far. Better three point shooter. And a better catch and shoot guy. Kyrie is a true knock down shooter IMO.yeah, from the point guard position, only Curry is better at shooting, and Curry is arguably one of the best shooters of all time. But Wall is better at pretty much everything else. He does more to make his team better and that's one of the big reasons why Wall's team is progressing despite the fact it's a bunch of role players and developmental guys around him while Kyrie's team hasn't started taking the next step yet (and his FO got fired). It's not like Wall didn't play with some garbage players. It's not like Grunfeld is much better than Chris Grant was. And it's not like Wittman is even as good a coach as Mike Brown. Wall is better for now. And Beal is going to be a lot better than Dion Waiters and he and Wall are going to be a much better fit together.yeah, this was always my argument for people who boosted Kyrie up a few years ago. Wall playing for and with garbage and still finding dimes and making players better around him. The other thing that's worrisome about Kyrie is that he hasn't really gotten better since his rookie year. He missed his one year at Duke pretty much. He's not evolving in the way a young star player is needs to in order to take the next step.I will give him time here. THat situation in Cleveland is toxic and he is still just 22. Cleveland will absolutely match any offer Kyrie gets as an RFA, assuming he doesn't sign early like Wall did. Leaving Cleveland would mean turning down the extension and signing the QO. At which point Cleveland would have to trade him because that would be a clear signal he's not coming back. I just can't see him doing that. One max contract extension makes you fabulously wealthy. And Kyrie has an injury history. But damn, Cleveland is going to have to get something figured out around him. Or else he is not going to stay their after he hits UFA.Kyrie will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 this is amazing to me. I always thought Kyrie was better around the rim than Wall, but the numbers dont show it. I think Kyrie has better variety of shots than Wall, but Wall is by far better than dude. Comes from Wall being a stronger and more explosive athlete. Just an advantage over Kyrie he was born with. Kyrie probably has more moves and is a better dribbler. But there are just going to be windows that Wall can exploit that Kyrie can't. Wall has steadily gotten better at slashing and finishing since he was a rookie. I think studying Tony Parker produced some results. http://bkref.com/tiny/9YcES Shots at the basket this season, minimum 100 FGs, sorted by percentage of assisted field goals so that the PGs are at the top. Wall's numbers stack up with just about any other guard in the league this year. The only one who is doing a better job converting at the rim with a comparable assisted buckets % and volume is Goran Dragic. But when you think about how much faster Phoenix's pace is, and how much better they are at spacing the floor, Wall's numbers look even more impressive. Wall, Dragic, Parker, and Harden look like they stand out as the four most productive and efficient slashing guards in the league this year. And to me, Wall stands out within that subset because his team is the only one that sucks at spacing the floor. I will give him time here. THat situation in Cleveland is toxic and he is still just 22. Kyrie will be fine. Kyrie will be fine. But Cleveland might not be. Dan Gilbert said he learned you can't wait until the final year of a deal to try and get a commitment from a star. You have to sign him or trade him early. If things don't get better I could see him getting traded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1970039-john-wall-or-kyrie-irving-who-ya-got Kyrie is as Kyrie does. I'm pretty darn happy to have John Wall at this stage of his career. I was not impressed until this season but now I'm blown away. Basketball is a team sport and I'd rather have a guy who plays better team ball. I'm also happy with Irving getting all the media love as long as we're winning more basketball games. These two players will be compared for the rest of their careers and somehow I don't expect JW to get the nod very often. I just want the Wizards to get the nod over the Cavaliers, which will continue until Cleveland gets LeCrab "Neverfoul" Dribjames back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Chachie - there is a better chance of you suiting up for the Cavs next year than there is for Lebron to return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Chachie - there is a better chance of you suiting up for the Cavs next year than there is for Lebron to return. Don't rule me out! 135 pounds of pure rebound! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Chris Singleton is the first man off the bench Make of that what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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