Dibble is dumb and random MLB debate Thread

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

lol, thats asinine.

maybe you should call the yankees and tell them derek jeter should bat 8th, arod should lead off, texieria bat 7th, and robinson cano bat 5th. afterall, it doesnt really matter who bats where. its not like different hitters have different skillsets or anything.

jim riggleman is batting adam dunn in the leadoff spot tonight. afterall, all hitters are the same.

Did you read the study I linked?

Aside from, Jesus says that fast guys should bat first, why must a line-up be traditional?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

What stats would you prefer? Not being a smartass here either. Which ones would you rather use?

I like OPS+ in these discussions, because it's so easy to understand. But VORP is probably the best stat for measuring a player's worth.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Did you read the study I linked?

Aside from' date=' Jesus says that fast guys should bat first, why must a line-up be traditional?[/quote']

it looked like a bad engineering project. fast guys should be getting on base to be batted in by power guys, its just a simple fact of the game. its why its been going on for almost 100 years, and why no one has adapted your silly study chart from mr james.

sorry dude, different guys have different skillsets at the plate.

[pjfootballer]

Coulda Woulda Shoulda.

He didn't.

That leaves Bonds. And Mays as a 2nd.

You can't just go by Home Runs as to who was the best batter of all time. Dunn is one of the best HR hitters, but strikes out a buttload of times.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

it looked like a bad engineering project. fast guys should be getting on base to be batted in by power guys, its just a simple fact of the game. its why its been going on for almost 100 years, and why no one has adapted your silly study chart from mr james.

The Red Sox did (more or less). And they won two World Series.

In general, you want your better hitters bunched together and near the top of the lineup (because they get more at-bats that way). After that, you can Manny/Ortiz or Ortiz/Manny and it doesn't really matter.

And the goal is to get everyone on base. Wade Boggs was an awesome leadoff hitter even though he never stole a ton of bases. Why? Because the mother****er got on base.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You can't just go by Home Runs as to who was the best batter of all time. Dunn is one of the best HR hitters, but strikes out a buttload of times.

Strikeouts for a batter don't mean anything in the large scheme of things.

Dunn got on base at a 39 percent clip for most of his career. Who cares about the manner in which he made outs beyond that?

[pjfootballer]

You're joking right? He wasn't walking from laying off outside pitches.....they were I N T E N T I O N A L.

Yeah, I'd say that's a sign.

jeez

The sign was, this guy's biceps are bigger than my waist, so let's not throw him a meatball he can flick into the bay. It wasn't his hitting ability pitchers feared, it was him getting ahold of one and sending it to pluto.

[Mufumonk]

Strikeouts for a batter don't mean anything in the large scheme of things.

Dunn got on base at a 39 percent clip for most of his career. Who cares about the manner in which he made outs beyond that?

If you K a lot then you are not advancing base runners.

[Mufumonk]

The sign was, this guy's biceps are bigger than my waist, so let's not throw him a meatball he can flick into the bay. It wasn't his hitting ability pitchers feared, it was him getting ahold of one and sending it to pluto.

Add that to the fact the guy stood on top of the plate while wearing full body armor.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If you K a lot then you are not advancing base runners.

You are also not hitting into double plays, which are far more deadly than anything else that happens in baseball.

Seriously, meaningless.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2617

From a quantitative perspective, however, there is little evidence to suggest that a strikeout is "worse" than a groundout, popout, or any other means of making an out, with respect to generating runs. Sure, it might look bad—not even being able to put the ball in play—but the fact is that error rates, in this era of improved equipment, are as low as they’ve ever been. Granted, putting the ball in play, whether in the air or on the ground, can sometimes enable a hitter to advance a runner, but it also increases the chance of hitting into a double-play—a far greater rally-killer than a strikeout. As a result of all that, the value of "just putting the ball in play" is as low as it's ever been.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2617

At the end of the day, an out is an out. And advancing runners does not score runs....not making outs scores runs.

Yes, in the ninth inning of a tied playoff game with a runner on third and no outs, a strike out would be a bad thing. But if you build your team around a fear of that very rare situation...well...you are going to miss out on Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard.

A lineup featuring Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard over the last five years would be pretty ****ing awesome to have.

[pjfootballer]

If you K a lot then you are not advancing base runners.

And your average and on base percentage is low, hence, not a very good batter. I guess he could still have a good OPS if he walked alot and had alot of extra base hits.

[pjfootballer]

I've loved this debate today. It was actually a pretty boring day at work (we're usually busy). I know I don't know as much about baseball as I do about football, but I did learn alot more today. Appreciate the conversation. And Dibble is a dork who needs to let them shut the franchise down. Plenty of time for him to pitch. They don't want him having Tommy John sugery anytime soon.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

And your average and on base percentage is low, hence, not a very good batter. I guess he could still have a good OPS if he walked alot and had alot of extra base hits.

Not necessarily.

Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard strike out a lot and get on base a lot.

There is no real correlation between striking out and not getting on base.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Not necessarily.

Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard strike out a lot and get on base a lot.

There is no real correlation between striking out and not getting on base.

thats true, but what the other poster said is right. a flyout/groundout can advance a runner whereas a strikeout does not, and in tight games this is very important.

its why pitchers in the NL that can sacrifice are very important. if you have 30 sacrifice bunts that advance runners and bat .000 for the season as a pitcher, youve done a hell of a good job.

a productive out does exist. its not just an out. striking out with a guy on 2nd is less productive than grounding out to 1st and advancing that man to 3rd. both outs, one is more productive.

[fullnelson9999]

Coulda Woulda Shoulda.

He didn't.

That leaves Bonds. And Mays as a 2nd.

Coulda woulda shoulda? That's your argument? You have to be able to do better than that.

Bonds often struggled to hit over .300. Williams did it once in his career. Williams probably would have topped Ruth's homerun record if he didn't go to war, and he would have done it CLEAN. In fact, Bonds didn't really start hitting for a high average until he started juicing. I'll take someone hitting .400 over someone hitting 70 homeruns any day of the week.

Williams was a better hitter than Bonds. Period. To argue that is lunacy.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

thats true, but what the other poster said is right. a flyout/groundout can advance a runner whereas a strikeout does not, and in tight games this is very important.

its why pitchers in the NL that can sacrifice are very important. if you have 30 sacrifice bunts that advance runners and bat .000 for the season as a pitcher, youve done a hell of a good job.

a productive out does exist. its not just an out. striking out with a guy on 2nd is less productive than grounding out to 1st and advancing that man to 3rd. both outs, one is more productive.

It's just statistical noise at the end of a season. Moving a run over is fine, but hitting into a double play is a disaster. It all evens out.

Outs are outs.

[MattFancy]

The correct answer is Ken Griffey Jr. In his prime he was the best baseball player on the planet. Take away a bad decision to go play on that **** turf in Cincy and he shatters the HR record. And there wouldn't be a giant * next to his name.

I agree with that. Griffey was a beast and if it wasn't for the injuries he would be the undisputed HR king. Its amazing to think of what his numbers could've been.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

It's just statistical noise at the end of a season. Moving a run over is fine' date=' but hitting into a double play is a disaster. It all evens out.

Outs are outs.[/quote']

dude, you cant just assume its gonna be a double play.

striking out = striking out = 1 out.

putting bat on ball = pop up, foul out, ground out, GIDP, single, double, triple, homerun, etc.

you know whos fourth in the league in grounding into double plays? albert pujols. maybe he should just strike out more, it evens out anyways. lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

you know whos fourth in the league in grounding into double plays? albert pujols. maybe he should just strike out more, it evens out anyways. lol

Striking out would be better than double plays.

If I ever explain BABIP to you, your ****ing head would explode.

Seriously, embrace the fact that what you were told about baseball by Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan might be wrong. Advancing runners is not all that important. Stealing bases is often more trouble than its worth.

The As went to the playoffs year after year with Jeremy Giambi hitting leadoff. I'm faster than Jeremy Giambi.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Striking out would be better than double plays.

If I ever explain BABIP to you' date=' your ****ing head would explode.

Seriously, embrace the fact that what you were told about baseball by Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan might be wrong. Advancing runners is not all that important. Stealing bases is often more trouble than its worth.

The As went to the playoffs year after year with Jeremy Giambi hitting leadoff. I'm faster than Jeremy Giambi.[/quote']

most of my baseball discussion happens with my father, who would probably seriously consider marrying willie mays if he was asked. lol

and dude, the As of that era were built around chavez, tejada, and jason giambi. the dude youre talking about played like 2 seasons with them and 40 games in another. he never even played a full season. having mark mulder, tim hudson, and a non sucking version of barry zito is why that team won games, not because of some scrub lead off man who is slow.

[Forehead]

Bonds often struggled to hit over .300. Williams did it once in his career. Williams probably would have topped Ruth's homerun record if he didn't go to war, and he would have done it CLEAN. In fact, Bonds didn't really start hitting for a high average until he started juicing.

I don't know that it's possible to pinpoint exactly when Bonds started juicing, but my guess is around 1999. Just a guess. Anyway before that, he did have a string where he hit over .300 in six of eight seasons, and I'm almost positive he was not juicing for a good portion of that.

If I ever explain BABIP to you' date=' your ****ing head would explode.[/quote']

LKB, you're obviously a smart guy with a lot of good baseball opinions. But you've been sounding like a pompous ******* most of the day, pretty much every time you post in here. And frankly, most of what you've posted sounds like sabermetrics stuff you looked up on Wikipedia or something you read in Moneyball. It's cool that you subscribe to Billy Beane's theories, or appreciate the value over replacement player measure, but try laying out your arguments without trying to make others feel beneath you.

[pjfootballer]

I don't know that it's possible to pinpoint exactly when Bonds started juicing, but my guess is around 1999. Just a guess. Anyway before that, he did have a string where he hit over .300 in six of eight seasons, and I'm almost positive he was not juicing for a good portion of that.

LKB, you're obviously a smart guy with a lot of good baseball opinions. But you've been sounding like a pompous ******* most of the day, pretty much every time you post in here. And frankly, most of what you've posted sounds like sabermetrics stuff you looked up on Wikipedia or something you read in Moneyball. It's cool that you subscribe to Billy Beane's theories, or appreciate the value over replacement player measure, but try laying out your arguments without trying to make others feel beneath you.

Thank You. Good Post. We can all have a good debate without the condescending crap. I know I don't know as much about baseball as other people, but I feel I can hold my own. I know Cal Ripken does not even compare to alot of players in today's game or even guys in his era, but what he brought to the park everyday would make me want him on my team over others. If I'm playing fantasy baseball, I'd take McGuire over Ripken any day, but from a personal standpoint (just for fun) I'd take Ripken.

[Mufumonk]

I don't know that it's possible to pinpoint exactly when Bonds started juicing, but my guess is around 1999. Just a guess. Anyway before that, he did have a string where he hit over .300 in six of eight seasons, and I'm almost positive he was not juicing for a good portion of that.

He put on about 50lbs of muscle mass between September '99 and April '00.

LKB, you're obviously a smart guy with a lot of good baseball opinions. But you've been sounding like a pompous ******* most of the day, pretty much every time you post in here. And frankly, most of what you've posted sounds like sabermetrics stuff you looked up on Wikipedia or something you read in Moneyball. It's cool that you subscribe to Billy Beane's theories, or appreciate the value over replacement player measure, but try laying out your arguments without trying to make others feel beneath you.

Smart guy or not.....he doesn't know what he's talking about concerning this. He's not looking at all of the variables involved in an AB. There's a science to it but it's not nearly as simplified as he seems to think.

[MattFancy]

Looks like Dibble isn't announcing the next 2 Nats games per Deadspin.com

[WALEOVECHKIN]

FWIW

Barry Bonds began using steroids after the 1998 baseball season and came to rely on a wide variety of performance-enhancing drugs over the next several years, according to a book written by two Chronicle reporters and excerpted in this week's Sports Illustrated.