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Buying A/C in the fall vs summer?


da#1skinsfan

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What's the thickness of the insulation in your attic?

36 attic

19 walls

I am more concerned about HSPF than seer.I have to let him know if i want to change order by today otherwise the one i ordered will be installed on friday

the old 21 year old model cooled the house.As hot as it was in july it was the lowest my electric bill has been in July since bge raised the rates 40%. But in the last 4 years it has slowly lost ability to heat house . Not unusual to wake up in the morning and find temp at 62 when i had it set on 68

i keep settings at

78 summer

68-72 winter

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Just ordered my new one

Amana 3 ton ASZ14

Amana aepf air handler

AMU Media Air Cleaner

honeywell 8000 Touch Screen thermostat

all new lines

new 15k heat strip

everything is new only thing kept is electirc lines to AC/heat strip

4,888

30% fed tax credit

$400 from BGE/md

totoal 1864 credits

final cost after rebates credits

3020

As someone who is reading this as if it were in arabic - why are you paying $3k and Im paying $5k and Im keeping my copper lines?

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As someone who is reading this as if it were in arabic - why are you paying $3k and Im paying $5k and Im keeping my copper lines?

what size and make are you getting? I am getting almost 1900 in tax credits and rebates from BGE

i had higher bids on other systems and i had to keep my lines. The guy who is going to do mine says it is not worth the trouble as i have a freon leak somewhere and he doesn't like to install 410 refrigerant systems on old freon lines and mine are easy to get to as nothing is in the way

I think many of these guys are marking up the price because they know about the tax credit.

Its 90 outside an my old 2ton is keeping me cool since the recharge and it is not running that much. I am starting to think should have gotten a 2.5. Is it better to undersize or oversize ?

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Zoony, do you still feel your air flow is inadequate? When you put your hand about four-five inches from the vent, do you still feel the air flow or breeze against your hand?

First thanks for the reply man.

Airflow seems adequate, actually. It just seems my unit runs a lot in the summer. I guess that's what you get in TN in July though :)

I thought it might have something to do with trying to fit a large volume of air down a small duct. I'm heating & cooling about 2600 sq feet.

Do you know if yo uhave a two or three speed motor? Im guessing a 3 speed. The high speed in most variable speed motors is the usually the maximum performance speed to produce the most efficient amount of CFM's (Cubic Feet :::of air flow::: per minute). because you have a large unit, it probably only has to run on a medium speed to get the propor amount of airflow through the vents (CFM's).

interesting and good to know. I take it there's no problem then, whew :)

I'm not sure how many speeds it has. I can never hear an audible change in the unit, should I? It's a 2 piece unit, one in the crawlspace and one outside.

Im also guessing you got your unit installed by the manufacturer directly? Did you go through the manufacturer of the unit to purchase and install, (Trane or Carrier company for example) or did you go through an HVAC company for the purchase and install? (United Air temp, Brennans, FH Furr)?

It was actually installed by a local company selected by the Builder.

http://www.thecherokeegroup.net/

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As someone who is reading this as if it were in arabic - why are you paying $3k and Im paying $5k and Im keeping my copper lines?

Without going back and re-reading the thread, i believe Crabr had a twenty one year old system. Ancient. Most dont last thatlong, and the demensions of the line set had to be changed because newer units use different size copper line. I could be wrong, I havent re-read the thread to make sure. How many people are coming to do the install for both of you guys units? There may be a labor inflation there as well. Da#1skinsfan, did you ever get another quote for your system?

zoony, good call in getting A local company that the manufacturer recomended. One or more of the techs may have completed course work with that manufacturer or they have a licensed technician of that manufacturer working for that company. No, you prolly wont hear a difference in speed unless you were in the crawlspace. Yeah you probably have a small to med sized leak. Its running right now, but with the amount of stress thatthe whole unit has gone through, it wouldnt be long before you started experiencing reoccuring issues or miltiple holes in your coil. Heat pump right? it would have failed you in the winter when the refrigerant started going the other way through the lines. That stress would have popped your coil, anyways, so good thing you are getting this done AND getting a rebate to do so.

da#1redskinsfan, bring up the quote Crabr got for his unit to your tech. let him know thatafter research you want to know the difference between whatyou and Crabr got. If he cant adaquately explain to you why he is charging what the is charging... then id get another estimate. I think I said this when you got your first etimate, I wish I lived closer to you so I could have taken a look at your situation. Are you going with the guy who wanted to install the14 seer with the piston?

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My situation:

$6600 - $1500 tax credit - $300 elec company credit = $4800 installed for a new 2.5 ton Trane 16Seer unit (ac/coil/furnace), new Trane touchscreen thermostat and to relocate the thermostat in a different spot upstairs.

Keeping the copper lines.

All manufacturers warranty plus a 2 year "bumper to bumper" warranty for parts and labor (maintenance not included, but any problems)

2 people coming to do the installation from ARS

I couldnt tell you the breakdown like the above (xxx air handler, etc) I just know it's all Trane, and it's all installed.

Does that make it more of an apples to apples comparison?

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Without going back and re-reading the thread, i believe Crabr had a twenty one year old system. Ancient. Most dont last that long, and the demensions of the line set had to be changed because newer units use different size copper line.

Correct line was 1/4 and they no longer use it. But 2 people were going to just replace the 1/4 lind and keep the larger line. I also had a freon link somewhere. Everything is new including the outside pad

My house is in between a 25t and 3t i upped mine to a seer 16 3t Amana. installed for 5129 - 1900 in credits and rebates. total now 3229. Plus i will charge it on my visa and get 51 back in points

2 year from dealer and 10 year/lifetime on compressor

Stew how would energy compare to a new 3T 16 seer vs my old 2T 10seer

does the FLA and LRA tell me my savings ? my old HP has lower numbers

old was FLA 11.3 LRA 59

new FLA 16.6 LRA 84

seems the larger size just cancel out the savings and maybe cost m ore in the long run

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Wont cancel out the savings because its not going to be working very hard at all, and you are comparing your savings to the old unit being scrapped, not the 10 seer. Also, you wont be eligable for the tax credit if you go 10 seer. Between the 10 and 16 seer, you are getting different parts like a regular one speed motor as opposed to a variable speed.

How ever many tons your system is, corrolates directly to the cooling power of your system. 1 ton = 12,000 BTU's (British Thermal Units) if i remember correclty. A BTU is a measurement of how much energy is needed to heat 1 lb of water, one degree F. With that said, its much easier to make a house with a larger unit then needed, comfortable, then it would be to make a house with an undersized unit comfortable. A larger unit on a house will cool the rooms much faster, but because the air is moving over that condensing coil faster, it doesn't have the time to grab all the moisture from the air before it is forced through the duct. (Think I love Lucy when she worked the conveyor belt at the choclate factory) This is easily remedied with a dehumidifier, though I really never hear complaints that the cold air in the house is too humid. Infact, I welcome humid air in the winter. The only other complaint Ive heard with a larger system is that the house can get too cold... which is also easily remedied.

to get a good estimate of how many BTU's you will need,

To determine the BTUs needed to cool a given space follow this procedure:

Calculate the total square feet to be cooled: Measure the size of the room (or rooms) to be cooled, to obtain total square feet. Multiply room length by width for each room and if there are multiple rooms, add the room areas together to get a single number.

Read the Base BTUs needed from Table 1 below

Add additional BTUs for these factors:

+ 4,000 BTUs for each room below a ceiling or roof which is not insulated

+ 4,000 BTUs for a home or residential kitchen included in the cooled area

+ 1,500 BTUs for each window which receives significant daily sunshine

+ 1,500 BTUs for a room over a kitchen or boiler room IF the kitchen or boiler room is actively producing heat during the cooling period

+ 600 BTUs per person over two, if more than two occupants will be occupying the room during the cooling period

Subtract BTUs from the total required if these factors are present:

- 1,000 BTUs if the room is on the shaded side of the building

Calculate the final total BTUh needed from the above steps. This should place you in the right range of cooling capacity needed. Review the warning below about buying an oversized air conditioner.

The table below gives recommended air conditioning BTU's necessary to cool a single room. The data in the table assumes that the ceiling over the room is insulated and that the room is not over or is not itself a special heat-producing area such as a kitchen or boiler room.

Things like these will make these numbers not as accurate, so keep in mind:

What are the sun and heat characteristics of the geographic area where the building is located (southern U.S. vs. northern U.S. or Canada, for example)?

How much direct sunlight is falling on the building?

Is it bright hot sun or only partly sunny?

What are the exterior colors of surfaces on which sunlight is falling?

How well the building is insulated?

How drafty is the building?

How many occupants are in the building?

What other heat sources (or cooling sources) are in the building?

How high are the interior ceilings?

How does air circulate within the occupied spaces?

What defects in the air conditioning system need to be overcome, such as duct system errors or damage, dirty filters, blocked cooling coils, etc. ?

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My situation:

$6600 - $1500 tax credit - $300 elec company credit = $4800 installed for a new 2.5 ton Trane 16Seer unit (ac/coil/furnace), new Trane touchscreen thermostat and to relocate the thermostat in a different spot upstairs.

Keeping the copper lines.

All manufacturers warranty plus a 2 year "bumper to bumper" warranty for parts and labor (maintenance not included, but any problems)

2 people coming to do the installation from ARS

I couldnt tell you the breakdown like the above (xxx air handler, etc) I just know it's all Trane, and it's all installed.

Does that make it more of an apples to apples comparison?

It does, however I dont like to make judgments about the prices people quote unless Im there to see what they saw. It could be a valid reason your cost more, or it could very well be that he is trying to get you on price. Again, I don't like speculating about price.... is this the same guy that was trying to push the 14 seer piston on you?

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It does, however I dont like to make judgments about the prices people quote unless Im there to see what they saw. It could be a valid reason your cost more, or it could very well be that he is trying to get you on price. Again, I don't like speculating about price.... is this the same guy that was trying to push the 14 seer piston on you?

Nono I think youre mixing up me and someone else. Only potential differences I see:

Different companies (CrabR who are you dealing with?)

Maybe CrabR does not have the inside & outside being replaced?

No copper lines being replaced for me (should be cheaper?)

12/13yr old house meaning pretty cookie cutter layout, not sure about CrabR's

Im doing Trane, CrabR doing Amana

I know its tough to compare over the net but when I see someone doing the exact same thing as me it seems and paying $2k less I think whoaaaaa what am I missing here.

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Nono I think youre mixing up me and someone else. Only potential differences I see:

Different companies (CrabR who are you dealing with?)

Maybe CrabR does not have the inside & outside being replaced?

No copper lines being replaced for me (should be cheaper?)

12/13yr old house meaning pretty cookie cutter layout, not sure about CrabR's

Im doing Trane, CrabR doing Amana

I know its tough to compare over the net but when I see someone doing the exact same thing as me it seems and paying $2k less I think whoaaaaa what am I missing here.

everything is new plus honeywell 8000 and media filter system. He is even replacing the outside pad and disconnect box and whip what ever that is

he is a local Amana dealer

Here were my proposals

air handler makes it seer15

ASX14 2.5 t 4693

ASX14 3T 4883 air handler makes it seer15

ASX16 3T 2 stage compressor 5169

If i am not mistaken[stew can correct me if i am wrong] we both have the same brand compressors. Copeland with lifetime replacement warranty

I live outside DC what local are you in in NC.

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Nono I think youre mixing up me and someone else. Only potential differences I see:

Different companies (CrabR who are you dealing with?)

Maybe CrabR does not have the inside & outside being replaced?

No copper lines being replaced for me (should be cheaper?)

12/13yr old house meaning pretty cookie cutter layout, not sure about CrabR's

Im doing Trane, CrabR doing Amana

I know its tough to compare over the net but when I see someone doing the exact same thing as me it seems and paying $2k less I think whoaaaaa what am I missing here.

Do you have time to bring this to his attention or get aanother estimate before work starts or you pay for this?

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Stew

on this A13MU Media Air Cleaner they are giving me

do i have to use their filter ? or is it generic one i can pick up at Home Depot

http://www.amana-hac.com/Home/Products/IndoorAirQualityAirFiltration/A13MUChargedMediaRetrofitAirCleaner/tabid/1032/Default.aspx

thanks in advance

You can get the generic ones if you can get the same size and its a flush fit. Id look into permanent filters though. For electronic air cleaners, the permamanent filters are metal plates layered with a quarter or half inch between them, and a metal wire in front and back of them, the charge from the electronic air cleaner traps all the air debris on themetal filter rack and you just pull them and wash them.

with filters its pretty much you pay for what you get. If you are happier replacing the filter each month, as long as you replace it monthly it wont be a worry. They just wont be as efficient. Paper filters are only like 20-30% efficient at traping debris, and thats for the first month, when they are full, debris starts passing through it more regularly and the air flow is restricted causing stress on the unit. Id look into permanent filters, but thats just my opinion. Im surprised the tech didnt offer them to you.

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It is installed and I am not sure what to expect

the air flow seems to be about twice that of the old one, but the air coming out is not as cold as the old one.and it does not take out as much humidity,

He said he set the fan on med speed. If he set it on high it would blow the dog up in the air if he was standing on the vent

intake air is 82 and outflow is 70, when it shuys off it had dropped to 68. The old one would be about 67 dropping to 64 by end of cycle

found another 500 rebate so total in tax credits and rebates is 2400. I cant complain net cost is 2291 installed

I have appreciated your time. I hope i can return tge favor one day

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There should be at least a sixteen degree difference between the air coming into your AC, (the vent that connects to the indoor unit on the bottom, also called your return) and the air coming out of the vent on the top of your unit. you can put a digital thermometer in the vents blowing cold air, then put that digital thermomter in the register vent as well (the big one in the wall that sucks air in) if you cant find your register, then you can actually drill a small hole in each vent itself, (we do it in the trade to get an accurate temp rise/drop) and stick the thermometer in each hole to get an accurate temp reading. AC units, heatpumps included should have at the very least a sixteen degree difference from the Supply (vent coming off the top of the unit in most cases) and the return (vent connecting to the bottom of the indoor unit in most cases)

If you cannot get this difference in temperature, call your HVAC guy and tell him specifically thatyou cannot get a sixteen degree temp drop when you check. Newer units should get a twenty - twenty three degree temp drop. Also, ask if your variable speed motor starts off in aslow mode and then kicks into med. The reason I say thatis because the slow speed at first is whattakes the humidity out of the air until the house is cooled down, then the motor shoudl kick into med to remove the rest of the heat in the house.

In the field, getting a propor temp drop (or in the winter a temp rise) is one of the first things a tech will do to "Confirm Operations". Id get him on the phone. They are now part of the warrenty you purchased. Use them. Have them come out to your place whenever something doesnt feel normal in your system. You are paying for the service, after all, and it wasnt exactly a cheap endevor.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK guys need your help again.

Got a much better quote. Same equipment - $5800 - $1800 in credits = $4000 total. 2.5 Ton Trane 16SEER equipment. Couple differences:

- This guy insists upon replacing the horizontal pieces of copper pipe - says no matter what, even blowing nitrogen, you will leave deposits in the horizontal pipe that will come back down and hurt your compressor

- Including a "ceiling saver kit" - stops the unit from running if the condensor drain clogs - do I need this or is this like "underbody rustproofing"?

- Replacing the 4ft plenum and 2ft return plenum (doesnt need it for some reason recommends it).

Thoughts? I can get him to lower the price and remove the above stuff but if its valuable and not BS, then maybe I want it? Going to decide to go with this guy or not by tomorrow i think, just want to git r done but dont want to get beat up, if i dont need the above stuff (primarily the ceiling saver kit, hes the only one that offered it) then I want to deduct it.

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Stew, I have a question. I have an end unit town House that is around 1300 SF above grade and another 500-600 finished in the basement. I currently have a very old system (2.5 ton) and I am getting almost ZERO air to the front 2 bedrooms on the top floor. I know this is a common problem for town houses, but one company came by and told me that I should upgrade to a 3 ton to get better air flow to the top floor, and a different company said that would be a very bad idea but really could not give me a good reason. Any thoughts based off of this info?

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