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Buying A/C in the fall vs summer?


da#1skinsfan

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Guy is on the way over to give me prices on Amana Goodman. He should be here in 30 mins. I will give you a shout back then on price. Got an other coming this afternoon he is pushing AM standard but he carries goodman also

I would be more excited if it was a new boat, but I would not trade cold air for anything. If it gets above 80 i hate it...........unless i am in my boat :)

THX

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Guy is on the way over to give me prices on Amana Goodman. He should be here in 30 mins. I will give you a shout back then on price. Got an other coming this afternoon he is pushing AM standard but he carries goodman also

I would be more excited if it was a new boat, but I would not trade cold air for anything. If it gets above 80 i hate it...........unless i am in my boat :)

THX

Tell them that you would like a maint/24 hour protection plan thrown into the cost. For what you are paying, you want more then the manufacturers warranty. Let both techs know you are price shopping so that they give you the best price right off the bat. Ask about the line sets... very very important.

You should be excited because yyou are upgrading the biggest and most important appliance in your home, and the second biggest and most important appliance in your life... next to your car basically. You are also raising the value of your home, and getting a 1500 dollar tax credit for doing so. The icing on the cake is restoring your comfort and healthy quality air.

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Stew, can you tell me a little more about these permanent filters?

I have 2 dogs that like to run outside, which means they bring ALOT of dust inside. 1 of them is also a long haired shedding machine. We go thru filters like most people go thru ice. Anything to help, I've tried everything from the $4 filters to the $20 filters, seems to be no difference after a week or so.

Anything I can do to save some cash on these filters would be awesome!

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Stew, can you tell me a little more about these permanent filters?

I have 2 dogs that like to run outside, which means they bring ALOT of dust inside. 1 of them is also a long haired shedding machine. We go thru filters like most people go thru ice. Anything to help, I've tried everything from the $4 filters to the $20 filters, seems to be no difference after a week or so.

Anything I can do to save some cash on these filters would be awesome!

yeah man. EZ flow filters are permanent. They are made of a polypropelene weave, that is electrostatically charged, and encased in a stainless steel frame. They are the absolute best. When air is pulled across the polypropelene fibers, it creates a "charge" that collects virus's and mold spores, and pet dander. It also collects dog hair and dust and all the res, bu tthe beauty is that because it is an electrostatically charged pad, it collects the microscopic elements almost all other filters don't trap. Once a month, yo utake the filter out, vacuum it, and or take it outside and hose it off completely. Then let the sun dry it. Tip it on a corner so all the water flows out of it. Once completely dry, reinsert into your return, and you are ready to go again. I actually have two filters. When I pull one out, I replace it with the other, so that the unit isn't sucking in nasties while the other one os being cleaned or dried. Its incredible the difference. EZ Flow makes a permanent filter made especially for Heat pumps as well, I believe that is the "Dust Eater" model. I highly recommend this kind of filter, and they will customer make them to size if yo have an odd size register.

I live by these things. I have five dogs. A true pack of large dogs. I keep them outside or in the basement for the most part, and we sweep and vacuum daily, and mop our hardwood every weekend, but we still get a good amount of accumulation on our filters. It is a legit protection tool for your investment.

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The amana guy was just here he is going to work up some estimates on a

ASZ16 Heat Pump, I like the HSPF specs. he said he is going to replace the lines. One is only 1/4 inch and new system is 3/8 and because my system is leaking freon best just to place line

he charged my old one up, It was low on freon, he said he would knock it off the estimate if i went with him.

The old one is crakning out some cold air now, that should get through till it get it replaced in the next few weeks.

I got 2 more people coming out for estimates, I will let you know when i get the final tallies and the specs

Tax credits and rebates are

1500 fed 400 bge/MD state rebate

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If you told me what he got and what he paid, Id be able to tell you exactly how good of a deal he got. I doubt it was for the season... see my last earlier post.

You get a good deal on a lawn mower in the winter because Sears bought 300 in June and never sold them all. They got a good deal on the mowers because they bought in bulk. Now its October, and they still have 75 mowers left. They cut their mark up in half, and give you a "good deal". Most HVAC companies, even huge companies ddon'tbuy units in bulk, they buy them specifically to order of the home they are working at. Not buying in bulk means they can only get so much of a discount. Then they still have to charge installation and labor cost's, unlike at Sears where the lawn mower sits in a box on a shelf in the back. If your dad got a good deal, the price cut more then likely came out of labor costs. When a unit is sold, not only is the tech who sold the unit getting a commission, but so is the branch manager. Just sayin.

Commercial lawn mowers. SCAG brand. Lawn and power. Not the push mowers regular homeowners use. They don't sit in a box in the back room if they aren't sold, they sit in front of the store or wherever they display them taking up valuable space for the 38 inch commercial snowblowers they try to sell you in the winter. The A/C unit was bought wholesale by his friend who is a contractor for 1/3 of the regular price, not from an A/C company or Sears or whatever you're talking about. I don't know where or how he got the deal he got, and he has a team of Greek immigrants who get paid a fixed price per job and always work really fast.

The same guy helped us get good deals on replacement appliances in the house, and he also got high end windows the replace the crappy ones that leaked when they built our house.

Do I have the prices and things off the top of my head? No. I would if this was a few years ago when they were actually doing the work. Was it a seasonal difference? According to the guy who has all these connections and ordered these parts it definitely was, and the costs are artificially increased during the summer months. The same is true for real lawn equipment.

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Stew do you agree with this. Is a 14 more reliable than a 16 goodman. Are pistons more reliable in the long run ? I do not know what this all means, i am lost on this stuff

"The 16 seer unit gets its effiency from using a TXV metering devices instead of the more reliable pistons in the 13/14 seer equipment, which are otherwise identical, i.e. same coil, compressor, chassis, etc... you will have to have the Amana equivalent of a Goodman AEPF variable speed air handler to get the most out of it although the ASPF has a TXV with a less fancy blower.

Care in installation is critical with TXV equipment they dont tolerate as much smut in the lines as a piston. I prefer hooking up piston equipment because of the long term reliability and hardly noticable less effiency, youre talking maybe a few cents a day if that. More important to have the right CFM, the correct return and supply sized duct. Any high end equipment 16 seer is immediately a 10 seer when the duct is strangling it.

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Commercial lawn mowers. SCAG brand. Lawn and power. Not the push mowers regular homeowners use. They don't sit in a box in the back room if they aren't sold, they sit in front of the store or wherever they display them taking up valuable space for the 38 inch commercial snowblowers they try to sell you in the winter. The A/C unit was bought wholesale by his friend who is a contractor for 1/3 of the regular price, not from an A/C company or Sears or whatever you're talking about. I don't know where or how he got the deal he got, and he has a team of Greek immigrants who get paid a fixed price per job and always work really fast.

The same guy helped us get good deals on replacement appliances in the house, and he also got high end windows the replace the crappy ones that leaked when they built our house.

Do I have the prices and things off the top of my head? No. I would if this was a few years ago when they were actually doing the work. Was it a seasonal difference? According to the guy who has all these connections and ordered these parts it definitely was, and the costs are artificially increased during the summer months. The same is true for real lawn equipment.

I could care less about the lawnmower, i used it as an example, replace lawn mower with any appliance and the comparison still sticks. Your dad got his replaced by an independant contractor that used immigrants to help install it, and he did it as sidework? Well there is your discount. A friend of a friend discount. You cant apply for the energy efficiency tax credit with a scenario like that.

When going through a licensed dealer or a Commercial HVAC company, they are ordered to spec. Even if your dads friend got a wholesale discount, it wasnt 1/3 of the cost. I get the same discount, and depending on the unit, its only about a 20-30% discount at its greatest.

I dont believe your friend about parts being marked up or down depending on season. If I go to Airco, or RE Michaels (HVAC parts and gass stores) the cost of a cappillary tube is the same in the summer, as it is in the winter. Same with the copper piping needed to run the lines. If the price of copper goes up, I could see the possability of a mark up. Not because its the offseason. if you go to some mom and pop hardware shop that has accessories, maybe they marks stuff up, but again Ive never seen it in my years working in the industry.

The fact that your dad got his job done as sidework speaks for the discount. I get the same Contractors discount from manufacturers as your dads friend. Your father may have gotten an awesome deal, but the means in which he did doesnt apply here. The discount in price came from the immigrants he hired as day labor and because he didnt have to follow a company price log, like... you know, big companies have to. I think the "seasonal discount" was more of a lip service. Either way though, Ill go with whatever you say, just to end this odd debate. I know what I know.

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Stew do you agree with this. Is a 14 more reliable than a 16 goodman. Are pistons more reliable in the long run ? I do not know what this all means, i am lost on this stuff

"The 16 seer unit gets its effiency from using a TXV metering devices instead of the more reliable pistons in the 13/14 seer equipment, which are otherwise identical, i.e. same coil, compressor, chassis, etc... you will have to have the Amana equivalent of a Goodman AEPF variable speed air handler to get the most out of it although the ASPF has a TXV with a less fancy blower.

Care in installation is critical with TXV equipment they dont tolerate as much smut in the lines as a piston. I prefer hooking up piston equipment because of the long term reliability and hardly noticable less effiency, youre talking maybe a few cents a day if that. More important to have the right CFM, the correct return and supply sized duct. Any high end equipment 16 seer is immediately a 10 seer when the duct is strangling it.

Is all that information that the HVAC guy wrote down for you? SEER stands for SEasonal Efficiency Rating. To apply for the energy efficiency tax credit you have to purchase a 15 or 16 seer unit. Pistons are old school technology, TXV (Thermal Expansion Valve) is an automated metering device that is controlled by a flexable membrane and pressure to meter the flow of refrigerant. Pressure builds, making the orafice with which the refrigerant shoots smaller, to meter the flow of refrigerant and even out the pressure. The technology is much newer and Me personally, Id go with a TXV because if the do go out, its a hell of a lot easier in my opinion to fix. Its not necessarily an easy fix, couple hours and some braising, but it isnt crammed and covered by a lot of other equipment. They are easily located, and easy access. The piston, is metering refrigerant by pushing it through an orafice. If the piston goes, its harder to get to and may end up a more expensive repair. I like TXV's

He makes a point that the duct size can strangle a system if the specs are off, and without being there i dont want to give any misleading information on your duct work. It sounds like he was pushing you towards a 14 seer. I know with the end of the year approaching, more 15 and 16 seer units are being sold due to the credit. Take from that what you will. I had to look again, but i did confirm that you have to have a 15 or 16 seer unit to apply for the tax credit. Im sure those units will work fine on your ducts unless you have like ten inch round accordian ducts, even then something can be worked out. I dunno, Id get another estimate. Just me.

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to the OP, Trane has some incentives right now.

http://www.trane.com/residential/Getting-Started/Promos

Thats one of the good things about going with a larger company, they offer finacing through their company. Trane is offering a $1000 rebate on their heating and cooling systems right now, with no financing. Its not an "end of summer" deal or anything like that... seeing as they offer the rebate and attractive financing on both their heating and cooling systems.

Every company has higher quality models, and the baisc make up is going to be similer on most units, excluding patented parts. Carrier invented the Air Conditioner, and have unique aspects to their systems as well. What seperates the larger companies is the kinds of financing and rebates and other things they can throw in and the service and protection they provide.

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e makes a point that the duct size can strangle a system if the specs are off, and without being there i dont want to give any misleading information on your duct work.

I have a question, if you don't mind.

When my house was built (2005), originally the builder put in a 4 ton unit. It didn't cool well enough, so it was changed out for a 5 ton unit.

None of the trunk lines or duct work was changed, just the unit. Could it be possible that my duct lines are strangling the unit?

I asked my builder about it and he said that the unit is a "variable unit" or something to that effect... so the size of the duct work doesn't matter.

help.

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I have a question, if you don't mind.

When my house was built (2005), originally the builder put in a 4 ton unit. It didn't cool well enough, so it was changed out for a 5 ton unit.

None of the trunk lines or duct work was changed, just the unit. Could it be possible that my duct lines are strangling the unit?

I asked my builder about it and he said that the unit is a "variable unit" or something to that effect... so the size of the duct work doesn't matter.

help.

Zoony, do you still feel your air flow is inadequate? When you put your hand about four-five inches from the vent, do you still feel the air flow or breeze against your hand?

What he means is that the motor is variable speed. Duct work dictates flow capacity. You can have a 5 ton unit in a house that was ducted with smaller ducts because of the variable speed motor. Sometimes people call them ECM's (stands for Electronically commuted Motor... something like that, its early) The variable speed motor is connected to a circuit board that can control how much air the motor forces through the ducts. For example, if you have a 5 ton unit in a zone fabricated with large ducts (a zone built to spec for a 5 ton unit... which is a large unit, ur house is a big'un, or does it have an open loft upstairs?) the motor will run on high or full capacity, forcing the maximum amount of air through the ducts. If the house is older, or wasn't spec'd correctly, you may have to up the size of the unit to get propor air flow in the house. If the duct size is smaller, the units motor speed can be switched at the board to accommodate the size of duct its pushing air through, thus maintaining propor air flow. Variable speed motors are cool because they don't generate much heat, they run more efficiently, because they may start out running slower to remove the humidity in a room. if the air travels across the condenser at a slower rate, the condensor can remove the humidity much easier, much more efficiently, and the quality of air is better, the room is cooler faster. (if you ever want to retain the heat in your house in the winter, use a humidifier. The moisture in the air will retain the heat.) After the humidity in the room has been displaced, the motor will kick up in gear and fill the room with cold air faster. Since your duct work is smaller, the motor goes from a slow speed to a medium speed, but doesn'tkick over into high gear and blast, because the control panael acts as a governor. Usually with variable speed motors, the company regulates the speeds, and has recommendations for the settings. Do you know if yo uhave a two or three speed motor? Im guessing a 3 speed. The high speed in most variable speed motors is the usually the maximum performance speed to produce the most efficient amount of CFM's (Cubic Feet :::of air flow::: per minute). because you have a large unit, it probably only has to run on a medium speed to get the propor amount of airflow through the vents (CFM's).

Im also guessing you got your unit installed by the manufacturer directly? Did you go through the manufacturer of the unit to purchase and install, (Trane or Carrier company for example) or did you go through an HVAC company for the purchase and install? (United Air temp, Brennans, FH Furr)?

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dude you are the man, just sayin.

Nah man, Im nowhere near the man, you should see my old Senior Master and Branch Manager. Those two were and still are beast's. Especially the Branch manager. Great techincal guy, hard hard worker, the company recruited him from a forign country. He has a degree, speaks four languages. He can build a unit from the ground up, piece by piece. He accelerated through the ranks of apprentice, journeyman, master, Sr. Master, and to Branch Manager faster then anyone in the company, and the company has been around since the 1940's. If you bought a system from this guy, you absolutely knew you were getting the best trained techs on the job, hands down for the install and for your yearly maintenance bc he doesn't except anything but 100% effort... and to that point lies his flaw.

He is a great guy technically, but he has the personality/people skills of a combination of Zsa Zsa Gabor, Kim Jong Ill, The Soup Nazi, and Borat all wrapped into one guy. As an employee your margin for error is nil, even in training. He is disrespectful, telling people to shut up and he makes fun of other employees accent, to their face, when he sounds like Count Chocula trying to read Ebonics, anytime he speaks. He is a closet racist. He steals sales from his Sr. Master for two reasons, for the commission, and because he doesn't want the Sr. Master to promote, so he controls how many sales he finalizes in an attempt to keep him in the branch. he also is a prick to the customer and blows sales left and right because of an inferiority complex. I can elaborate on this for days, but i wont... Hillarious stuff though. He uses pressure techniques, while in the customers home, in order to convince them to buy a system. It was funny to witness in person during training. Akward, but funny none the less.

Anyways, the point is Im just a journeyman like any other Journeyman. I wish there were other HVAC guys in here to lend some other advice and opinions as well, as I am nowhere near the final say on anything. I just know what I know, and offer my help free of charge. Any advice i give should be considered as such, just advice and my opinion.

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Stew, I know that this is an AC thread, but are you familiar with "all climate heat pumps"? One of the VPs of engineering retired from Carrier about 12 years ago and design/built a two stage heat pump that works down to 20 below 0 and is most efficient in the 0-10 degree temp range. It's several times more efficient than a gas pack AC unit or straight gas forced air.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/Dealer-Resources/technical-information-35.html

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Stew, I know that this is an AC thread, but are you familiar with "all climate heat pumps"? One of the VPs of engineering retired from Carrier about 12 years ago and design/built a two stage heat pump that works down to 20 below 0 and is most efficient in the 0-10 degree temp range. It's several times more efficient than a gas pack AC unit or straight gas forced air.

http://www.gotohallowell.com/Dealer-Resources/technical-information-35.html

I havent had the opportunity to play with one of these bad boys yet. Mainly because they aer newer technology and the market hasnt been saturated with them yet. Very intriguing. The problem with traditional Heat pumps, is that in very cold temps, they are very inefficient. traditional heat pumps work by taking heat out of the outside air and moving it indoors. Even on a snowy day, there is heat in the atmosphere. Sounds odd, but its true. So on extremely cold days (we had a few last winter) or if snow piles up around the outside unit it is becomes very difficult to efficiently heat your home.

These new bad boys look sharp, and working in colder climates with such efficiency really makes them attractive for people who live in colder weather climates. We get cold, but for the most part have mild winters. This is a dreamboat of a heatpump, but the technology is going to be expensive... right now. Once other companies build their own version of this ultra efficient unit, the price will drop and they will be more common place. I wonder how comperable in price they are to a geo-thermal set up. (The first geo-thermal technology, not the cool multi pipe/multi-field geo-thermal tech they are switching to.) New stuff is prolly even more expensive then traditional geo-thermal. Thanx for the link, im actually interested in the tech. I like Hallowell. A unit like this is DEFINITELY not builders grade, that thing is niiiiicce.

Being in NC, i figured your winters stayed pretty mild, but then i remembered you are in that garden of eden in the Mountains... Boone. How are the winters generally up there? I love that place. I picture Hot tub Time Machine taking place there.

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I am using this system in my mountain home (Boone, NC). Already have the air handlers installed. The 4 ton condenser unit is about $6000, but the annual savings in electric should be about at least $1000 per year. The main reason that I'm using it is because natural gas is not available and propane isn't as efficient as NG and the price of LP is directly affected by the price of oil. I also have radiant heat on the top 2 floors and intend to use Hallowell's

radiant unit (same technology) for it.

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I am using this system in my mountain home (Boone, NC). Already have the air handlers installed. The 4 ton condenser unit is about $6000, but the annual savings in electric should be about at least $1000 per year. The main reason that I'm using it is because natural gas is not available and propane isn't as efficient as NG and the price of LP is directly affected by the price of oil. I also have radiant heat on the top 2 floors and intend to use Hallowell's

radiant unit (same technology) for it.

You have to tell me how you like it once yo start getting electric bills for it. Im a little envious.

I don't like LP because of the price of lp alone. I have an LP system and a tank full of fuel, but i prefer my woodstove. though its a dry heat, I just run a humidifier sometimes.

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Just ordered my new one

Amana 3 ton ASZ14

Amana aepf air handler

AMU Media Air Cleaner

honeywell 8000 Touch Screen thermostat

all new lines

new 15k heat strip

everything is new only thing kept is electirc lines to AC/heat strip

4,888

30% fed tax credit

$400 from BGE/md

totoal 1864 credits

final cost after rebates credits

3020

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Just ordered my new one

Amana 3 ton ASZ14

Amana aepf air handler

AMU Media Air Cleaner

honeywell 8000 Touch Screen thermostat

all new lines

new 15k heat strip

everything is new only thing kept is electirc lines to AC/heat strip

4,888

30% fed tax credit

$400 from BGE/md

totoal 1864 credits

final cost after rebates credits

3020

Very nice. very nice indeed.

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last question

is it worth it to bump from a ASZ14 to a ASZ16

for 280 dollars

thanks

now off to do some fishing befoe it gets hot

you should be able to figure out the annual savings (more or less) and calculate time return on investment. Sounds cheap to me, I'd be looking

at the 18 seer. I'm always in favor of paying a little more up front to lower my monthly expenses and typical equity/interest investments are paying next to nothing.

What's the thickness of the insulation in your attic?

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