Andre Looks Completely Lost At LB.

[The Tris]

teams in our division are going to do the TE drag all game long to take advantage of Orakpo and Carter and even Lorenzo when he is out there.

I agree that our current OLBs are weak in coverage, but I also think Landry is going to have a lot of TE coverage responsiblities.

[z0eboy]

I agree, and I also think Landry is going to have a lot of TE coverage responsiblities.

I SECOND THIS LOGICAL FOOTBALL REFERENCE ... 3-4 OLB cover the FLATS ... to many madden players who can't understand defensive scheme need to read a book ... Haslett will have alot of ES'ers eatin crow ....

[Ryman of the North]

Football is a team sport and the defense has to shoulder its share of responsibilty for that record. As a so called ball player, I'm sure you already knew that but maybe you chose to conveniently forget. Who knows.

But calling my statement weak and then coming back with "scoring 28 points a game we would have had a vastly different record", that's a stroke of real genius right there! How do you do it?!

I know you are a legend in your own mind, but Shanahan and Haslett (2 PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL COACHES) think the 3-4 and Carter/Alexander at OLB can work and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Something I'm not willing to do for you.

:helmet:

It may be a team game but when one entire side of the ball isnt playing well or even worse is playing at a pathetic level, you dont win football games.

I called your statement weak because in your post you inferred that our defence was to blame so we changed it, however if you had even watched more than 1-2 games you would have seen that often our defence kept us in games until the 4th Q when the lack of any offence killed us.

our record last year was almost entirely due to a complete lack of offence, the defence was fine and with a bit of tweaking would have been far better than the aborted mission of a 3-4 we run now.

I could care less if someone doesnt want to give me the benefit of the doubt, I am stating facts not making an argument.

[KingGibbs]

I didn't start this thread to be negative as some of you have suggested. I started it because I feel good about this team, but feel that Andre could seriously be exploited by opposing offenses and it could make him a big time liability.

I don't see anything wrong with discussing what some of our concerns are in regards to the team. Most of us have given what we feel are legitimate reasons for our concerns and not the typical run of the mill "he sucks."

I'm sorry if some of you can't handle what might be a sore spot on our defense and it's not being discussed solely on here, but talk shows on both the radio and the tube, so clearly we aren't in the minority.

[Ryman of the North]

I honestly think people are confusing the coverage responsibilities of a 3-4 OLB with the coverage responsibilities of a 4-3 OLB...He WON'T be covering anybody man to man...to be successful in coverage as a 3-4 LOLB you need to be able to jam the TE from time to time, drop to your landmark on the field and make the tackle if the ball is thrown in your area...

That 3-4 team doesn't exist lol! I can only think of ONE 3-4 OLB that can cover regularly and that is Shaun Phillips...At this point people shouldn't freak out about Carter...He will be playing moving forward more often than not...In man to man situations Rocky, Fletch, Landry and even Moore will handle the TE's and RB's leaving Rak and Carter to rush...

No I think that the people saying that OLBs in a 3-4 dont have to cover are the ones who are making madden mistakes.

the issue that Carter has can be generalised as coverage, same with Rak, but in reality it is about how they play in space, Carter and to a less extent Rak are both DEFENCIVE ENDS. Carter especially is stiff in the hips and very uncomfortable in space. Rak to a much lesser extent.

OLBs need to be at least able to carry out very basic coverages such as short zones and more rarely man to man.

[z0eboy]

On linebacker Andre Carter’s transition to the linebacker spot and if he noticed any problems during Friday’s game:“I do not know where you got that he had some problems. Andre has done a great job in camp. I am very impressed on how he handles himself and how hard he has worked. I look at all those, I don’t want to say missed assignments, but you need gameday experience, especially when you switch positions. Andre will just get better and better. He is what you look for in an outside linebacker. He is what you look for in a player. He is very dedicated and he has a sense of urgency about him in both how he handles himself and how he practices. I look for some good things out of him.”On if there is a transition for linebacker Andre Carter rushing from a three-point stance versus being off the ball a little bite more:“I think a little bit initially. I think that is one of the reasons why you have those OTAs and summer camps. You become more comfortable.... http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=329534

[Ryman of the North]

On linebacker Andre Carter’s transition to the linebacker spot and if he noticed any problems during Friday’s game:“I do not know where you got that he had some problems. Andre has done a great job in camp. I am very impressed on how he handles himself and how hard he has worked. I look at all those, I don’t want to say missed assignments, but you need gameday experience, especially when you switch positions. Andre will just get better and better. He is what you look for in an outside linebacker. He is what you look for in a player. He is very dedicated and he has a sense of urgency about him in both how he handles himself and how he practices. I look for some good things out of him.”On if there is a transition for linebacker Andre Carter rushing from a three-point stance versus being off the ball a little bite more:“I think a little bit initially. I think that is one of the reasons why you have those OTAs and summer camps. You become more comfortable.... http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=329534

whoever said that is either coachspeaking or is an absolute moron. just because someone physically fits doesnt mean they will be good at a position. Jason Taylor pohysically fits the mold of a modern OLB but anyone who actually knows football knows he is better as a DE despite being undersized for it. I like Andre, he is a textbook redskin, but he is miscast as an OLB, something San fran already knew and something we will hopefully figure out.

[z0eboy]

whoever said that is either coachspeaking or is an absolute moron. just because someone physically fits doesnt mean they will be good at a position. Jason Taylor pohysically fits the mold of a modern OLB but anyone who actually knows football knows he is better as a DE despite being undersized for it. I like Andre, he is a textbook redskin, but he is miscast as an OLB, something San fran already knew and something we will hopefully figure out.

OK COACH SHANAHAN IS A MORON NOW!?!!? I've now witnessed the de-evolution of redskins football ....

[shemp nixon]

Carter did not look good against the Biils, but some of you need to relax. Let's see how he and the new D fare against the Ravens... If we clean up our run fits and tackling, IMO we will be a good D... Good test this week.

[Ryman of the North]

Jeez, so much whining. News flash ... we played the 4-3 last year with all your favorite players at their so called ideal positions and went 4-12!!!

Not to mention losing to some of the worst teams in the league while playing the MIGHTY 4-3!

No one said making the transition would be easy and every single team that has done it (most of them for the better) has had to struggle with what we're dealing with now. They all got through it. Consider it a right of passage and deal with it!

And in the meantime remember that the players are stoked about the new D.

:helmet:

This was your statement, and its wrong on so many levels.

1- no we actually didnt use our players at their preferred spots in the best manner possible for a 4-3. we misused Rak as a linebacker for the majority of the season not as an RDE, we misused AH as more of a place holder at DT than an attacker at the 3 tech (something that anyone following the ah saga should know as he complained quite vocally about it). we played way too much off man and used landry as a 20 yards deep FS instead of a roaming attack type safety.

2- Our defence was the strength of this team last season, it was the sole reason we had any wins last year as our O was by far the worst one ive seen in the NFL in a long time.

3-actually the "growing pains" for denver and Green bay were almost non existent, that was one of the major excuses for this change, sadly the people spouting that either dont know defencive football or they are just not bright. the truth is that we are not built the same talentwise on defence as those two teams.

4- the biggest problem with these 3-4 people is they dont seem to get that its not all about measurables , some players skillsets are just not suited for 3-4 or 4-3 .

[Ryman of the North]

OK COACH SHANAHAN IS A MORON NOW!?!!? I've now witnessed the de-evolution of redskins football ....

if he continues with the " andre is a perfect OLB" he is either using coachspeak to avoid looking like a moron or he is in fact a moron. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt and say its coachspeak for now.

[KingGibbs]

OK COACH SHANAHAN IS A MORON NOW!?!!? I've now witnessed the de-evolution of redskins football ....

You really are making yourself look like a fool.

[z0eboy]

if he continues with the " andre is a perfect OLB" he is either using coachspeak to avoid looking like a moron or he is in fact a moron. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt and say its coachspeak for now.

wow... u just don't know when to quit do u... look u talk alot bs... ur argument is opinionuated and now you trying to speak for a nfl superbowl winning coach... classic eat crow material imo.

[KDawg]

wow... u just don't know when to quit do u... look u talk alot bs... ur argument is opinionuated and now you trying to speak for a nfl superbowl winning coach... classic eat crow material imo.

I'd say that based on the last few posts you made that you should probably take some time away from the board and relax, or perhaps merely take your own advice.

People don't agree with the switch to the 3-4. I don't find it particularly bad a decision in the grand scheme of things, but in the short term we are lacking some personnel... Andre Carter at OLB is a major concern. I don't believe the whole thing will be a failure, but like I said we're missing some cogs to complete the machine.

Everyone's arguments on this forum are opinionated. It's the nature of the beast.

[Ryman of the North]

wow... u just don't know when to quit do u... look u talk alot bs... ur argument is opinionuated and now you trying to speak for a nfl superbowl winning coach... classic eat crow material imo.

Ok where do I start?

1- people who cant be bothered to spell check or use that 13 years old child txt speak shouldnt talk smack.

2- why would I quit? My argument has stayed consistent and has thus far been borne out. I hate to break it to you but the Andre Carter thing? its been done, it was deemed an epic fail, the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If Shannhan keeps telling us something that the easily verifiable facts (stats and film) contradict, how long do you think he will retain the respect of the players?

3- I speak for me period.

the easiest corelation for this is to make a similiar statement based on the same logic " Brandon Jacobs would be an excellent TE based on his height and weight at 6-4 265 he is almost exactly the NFL prototype at that position." Just ignore the fact that hes been a RB all his life and that his skillset is running the ball not running routes and catching, because after all he is physically perfect for it.

[jtyler42]

No I think that the people saying that OLBs in a 3-4 dont have to cover are the ones who are making madden mistakes.

the issue that Carter has can be generalised as coverage, same with Rak, but in reality it is about how they play in space, Carter and to a less extent Rak are both DEFENCIVE ENDS. Carter especially is stiff in the hips and very uncomfortable in space. Rak to a much lesser extent.

OLBs need to be at least able to carry out very basic coverages such as short zones and more rarely man to man.

I don't think anybody has said that our OLB's won't have to cover...I just and most that understand the 3-4 don't feel that it is as big a deal as some of the naysayers...

I agree that Carter is stiff and isn't totally comfortable out in space but his transition back to OLB isn't going to happen overnight, he still has more training camp and 3 preseason games to get better...if he can't we can move Wilson over there...

[Gerald362]

Interesting thought. Could be that a 3-3-2-3 would be effective, using the 3rd safety in pass coverage for the more skilled TE's in the league. Leaves one OLB to have to cover a second man out of the backfield. With someone like AC hanging back as a potential rusher instead of cover.

I think you will see Landry in the box a bit. Especially against teams with TEs that pour it on us. Rak is decent in coverage. He gets beat, but he's not horrible. He's not a total liability to his side. The other spot is.

Landry could very easily play the coverage role to the TE side with Doughty and Moore (or Horton) playing the safeties. Moore looked pretty bad on Friday night, but it was only one preseason game.

I guess the same can be said for the OLBs... But I'm still nervous about that spot.

[Skin'emAlive]

wow... u just don't know when to quit do u... look u talk alot bs... ur argument is opinionuated and now you trying to speak for a nfl superbowl winning coach... classic eat crow material imo.

Im actually quite impressed that you are still posting on this subject. Its even more suprising that you you have been here since 2004, and have not realized how to have an intelligent conversation without name calling. Shannahan has never been known how to have a good defense, or how to evaluate one. He is however a great coach. Just not so much on the defensive side. Im tired of everything coming up roses in the offseason and preseason and then getting let down. I wont sit here this year and wait for my heart to drop. This is a real problem, and its sad because Andre is a great player. He is a great redskin. But once again we are making square pegs fit into round holes. Nothing has changed really.

[RandyHolt]

Defenders of the move to a 3-4 stated that we often ran similar looks last year etc. But it is coming to the surface slowly it seems, that Carter Orakpo, and maybe even Alexander, do their best work as a defensive linemen.

I almost feel the move to the 3-4 is founded in Blache's moving Orakpo to LB so that he could use his favorite DE Daniels full time. Sure Rak lit up Oakland and a few other teams, but he did not impresss me at all at LB when not blitzing. I dont remember him making any great plays, passes defended, INT's, forced fumbles, big hits etc, to be honest.

The guy is a playmaker folks. If he is not making plays, he is not being used to our best advantage.

[z0eboy]

Check out the Patriots week 8 against us back in 2007... if you remember we got destroyed by their blitz scheme. I LOVE the 3-4 defense and did a Game Time power ranking for that game... read my breakdown of the Patriots defense.

Thread - Game Time power rankings link - http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=218417

All my threads link - http://www.extremeskins.com/member.php?u=24738 (Statistics)

[darrelgreenie]

if he continues with the " andre is a perfect OLB" he is either using coachspeak to avoid looking like a moron or he is in fact a moron. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt and say its coachspeak for now.

I think a lot of people confuse a coache's belief in a player with coachspeak.

Shanahan is well known for believing in his players.

And you should know Ryman that there is nothing better then a coach/assistant coach that has their players back.

When a player knows there coach believes in them they'll run through a freakin wall for them.

I think Mike S statement about Carter are a true expression of how he feels about Carter.

I think for this Redskins team Carter has a good skillset for OLB.

Usually speaking a coach isn't worried about the player they don't have.

i.e. Having a better coverage OLB then Carter

They coach the best they can and believe in the team and players they have.

Its why the Shanahan's can say positive things about the OL and using Portis as a 3rd down back.

Personally, if i were running a 3-4 i would switch Carter/Rak.

But, i'm certain Haslett and Shanahan et al are well aware of Carter's weaknesses and have taken those into consideration in the implementation of the defense.

And i still say that Carter isn't as far off in terms of coverage as other 3-4 LOLBs.

[Ryman of the North]

Oh I dont have a problem with a coach having a players back, I do however have a problem with a coach putting his head in the sand.

I personally love AC, he is one of my favourite redskins, he works hard, doesnt whine makes plays when put in the right spots.

what he isnt is an OLB, he is too stiff, has never been able to play in space and has the wrong skillset to be an olb. his pass rush moves are decent when he has a hand in the dirt because he stays low off the blocks and uses his first step with a variety of rip and swim moves, he however does not shed blocks well and is not a stack and shed type player more of a speed, burst type. this means he wont transition to OLB very well because Olinemen have that extra second to recover from his burst before he gets to the los.

I was going to add to EA's thread something that I think is overlooked by the madden generation and offensive guys like shanny who seem to think prototype size means prototype player. in reality some players transcend this because they have more rounded skill sets, but most of the time players dont.

I hate that with this chnage we are taking away form carter who I feel has earned his spot on this team through hard work and solid play.

[PlayAction]

Yes, Andre looked completely lost at LB. We can hope that he steps up in the remainder of the preseason but quite frankly I expected better after training camp. He looked like a developmental quality rookie.

However, Skins want to make the transition to the 3:4 defense. I think many fans realized that the transition would take a while because they didn't have the right mix of personnel (I know this was argued quite a bit). Andre will try his best - - but his best may not be good enough. I'm sure the Skins looked at his trade value but it may not have been very high so the options may only have been to cut him or let him have a try at OLB. He's too light to play DE in Haslett's 3:4 as the DEs are in the 300lb range. Even the 3rd down Dlinemen may be 270lbs.

I think we'll see a few former contributors or hoped-to-be-contributors from last year be cut.

[TheShredder]

I don't think anybody has said that our OLB's won't have to cover...I just and most that understand the 3-4 don't feel that it is as big a deal as some of the naysayers...

I agree that Carter is stiff and isn't totally comfortable out in space but his transition back to OLB isn't going to happen overnight, he still has more training camp and 3 preseason games to get better...if he can't we can move Wilson over there...

We have been discussing this for awhile now. I've listened to Shanahan explain about AC and read most the posts about the defense and the LB's. One of the examples that got me to stop feeling so uptight about the situation is that Demarcus Ware isn't exactly good in coverage, however he is viewed as a beast in the 3-4. The reason is that the Defensive Coordinator has a job to run his scheme so it doesn't call for Ware to drop back and become a continual liability for the defense.

In preseason we are not going to see Haslett bother with protecting OLB's from coverages, rather give them practice in coverage. Now, with RAK and AC both new to this type of coverage, we are going to have to trust that Shanahan is smart and Haslett has a plan. Have a little faith your new coaches. It is preseason and they are practicing...the scheme is going to work! It's not the critical liability that made me so concerned after watching the Bills game with all these things considered. This is to the credit of others whom helped me understand more of what I should and not just Carter poorly dropping back in coverage on Preseason Game 1.

[Master Blaster]

Interesting thought. Could be that a 3-3-2-3 would be effective, using the 3rd safety in pass coverage for the more skilled TE's in the league. Leaves one OLB to have to cover a second man out of the backfield. With someone like AC hanging back as a potential rusher instead of cover.

Not sure if you noticed this but our "Nickel" D is essentially a 2-4-5. We leave two DE's in, AC and Rak on the edges, and Fletcher and McIntosh in the middle. What I saw too was the safeties rolling down essentially as OLB's. This will give us the opportunity to have Landry, Horton, and Moore in at the same time.

This D has many different facets and ways to use talent. We didn't see anything but base calls against Buffalo.

The guy is a playmaker folks. If he is not making plays, he is not being used to our best advantage.

A 3-4 OLB is nowhere comparable to a 4-3 OLB.

Lawrence Taylor seemed to make enough plays as a 3-4 OLB.