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Newsbusters: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in Context'


Henry

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I'm sorry Pop. We just got our tempers going, it won't happen again I promise.

In all seriousness, I concede. Back to your regularly scheduled dumb celebrity quote thread. :ols:

Okay. But if I have to pull this thread over...........

;)

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As a History teacher, let me remind everyone, History is written by the winners.

No one could defend Hitler. Period.

But, as already pointed out, the US and Russians raced to get the Nazi scientists. The Nazi's tortured and performed cruel experiments. We often forget that they did so and we benefitted from it. With the knowledge we took from their scientists, the space program and aeronautics advanced 20 years or more.

But, again, as a history teacher, we can't talk about a lot of that stuff because its not what people want to hear about.

Not defending anything Stone has to say and to be honest, could care less what he has to say. Just saying, history is complicated...

And let us not forget that he got the trains to run on time... or was that Mussolini?

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See you are talking about an immediate situation, and comparing it to circumstances that take place over time.

Isn't that where I started? I said that is very hard to compare an incident which occurred over a 6 year period to one that had a 300 year lifespan. I really don't disagree with anything you have to say about the impact and the legacy of slavery in the Americas. I just responded to the downplaying of the impact of genocide when it comes to Hitler... or the effects which we see today (which includes the Mid-East crisis, the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts, and a host of other tragic outcomes)

But Bang is ultimately right, this isn't a pissing contest to compare which is worse. Both were absolutely horrible and neither should be minimized... which is what it sounded like you were attempting to do with the Holocaust and Hitler.

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See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible. I am not making this a racial issue. I refuse to that. It's about principle. Maybe slave traders did not mean for millions to die on their way to the new world. Maybe the idea of slaves being human beings and not cargo to be thrown over board when they die, didn't invade their conscience. Who knows. But wrong is wrong. What resulted was people dying. Like Scarface said, "Say hello to the bad guy". Hitler gives us some one to point a finger at, and feel magnanomous in our position.

Are you a real person?:ols:

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Now correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the autobahn inspire Eisenhower to build the super highway? Also I know Von Bruan had his PhD before Hitler, but again that is subjective. Do you think German initiatives would endorse Von Bruan to build rockets with the economy reeling from WWI. We have a space program....there is no Hitler running this country. What is up with our space program? Do you feel Von Braun and the use of the autobahn would be the same without Hitler's intiatives. All this is subjective honestly. And I am not defending the man, just the idea that people in glass houses should not throw stones.

Yes w/ respect to Eisenhower, but what difference does that make. Like I already said, the idea pre-dated Hitler.

No, they wouldn't have been the same. The money that went to build tanks could have been used to build an even better autobahn and even better rockets.

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To chime in on the ridiculous argument..

Slavery is pure evil

Slavery is exploitation at it's worst, but it's not murder.

Genocide is trying to make a whole group extinct.

Philosophically speaking, neither should ever be allowed to happen again. And comparing scars, so to speak, is nothing but destructive dialogue between people who really should understand one another on this level.

~Bang

Agreed.

And by the way, Hitler would still be a war-mongering, megalomaniac, racist, fascist without the holocaust.

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See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible.

I don't think there is any question which was worse. It's the Holocaust. Here's why:

1. Timeframe - Holocaust was less than a decade and probably cost roughly the same number of lives whereas slavery existed for centuries.

2. Scope - Six million people were put to death systematically in a regimented program of genocide. I don't know where you got your "100 million" figure from, but it's wrong since only 12 million were transported across the Atlantic from the 1500's to the 1800's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#The_transatlantic_slave_trade As has been pointed out, slavery was exploitation; the holocaust was genocide - an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people. Big difference. They even had the stones to call it The Final Solution.

3. Context - The Holocaust happened in the twentieth century in a supposedly civilized western culture. Slavery was the norm of the day in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries; by the twentieth century we were supposed to have grown out of such behavior and as such it's even more shocking and despicable to have happened when and where it did.

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See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible. I am not making this a racial issue. I refuse to that. It's about principle. Maybe slave traders did not mean for millions to die on their way to the new world. Maybe the idea of slaves being human beings and not cargo to be thrown over board when they die, didn't invade their conscience. Who knows. But wrong is wrong. What resulted was people dying. Like Scarface said, "Say hello to the bad guy". Hitler gives us some one to point a finger at, and feel magnanomous in our position.

why is it every thread you enter suddenly involves race debates? im baffled at how you turn everything into that. we could have a thread on ponies, and youd somehow find a way to twist it into something about slavery or racist cops. ive never met anyone who looks at race through such a prism like you do.

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why is it every thread you enter suddenly involves race debates? im baffled at how you turn everything into that. we could have a thread on ponies, and youd somehow find a way to twist it into something about slavery or racist cops. ive never met anyone who looks at race through such a prism like you do.

Oh, one of those guys. :doh: I used to work with one; gets annoying after a while. Dude thought crack was invented by the CIA to oppress black people. :ols: Not sure who invented meth to oppress white trash, but it has to be a conspiracy - everything is.

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See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible. I am not making this a racial issue. I refuse to that. It's about principle. Maybe slave traders did not mean for millions to die on their way to the new world. Maybe the idea of slaves being human beings and not cargo to be thrown over board when they die, didn't invade their conscience. Who knows. But wrong is wrong. What resulted was people dying. Like Scarface said, "Say hello to the bad guy". Hitler gives us some one to point a finger at, and feel magnanomous in our position.

No we have racial problems because people refuse to let things go or make ridiculous claims.

Its very simple how we "dare" say that slavery is not as bad as genocide, wrong is wrong and both are wrong but the same way that theft is not as heinous as murder is the way that Slavery is not the same as genocide.

Lets not forget that that there was an entire black civilisation involved in the slave trade very heavily who profited while I somehow doubt that there were very many jews helping the nazis during the holocaust.

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as for hitler and the germans? Code said it best, the Nazis conducted human experimentation on an unprecedented scale (so did the japanese but they didnt share most of their research). there was a whole underground to sneak german scientists to north america after the war to beat the russians. and we learned a LOT but at what cost?

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As a History teacher, let me remind everyone, History is written by the winners.

No one could defend Hitler. Period.

But, as already pointed out, the US and Russians raced to get the Nazi scientists. The Nazi's tortured and performed cruel experiments. We often forget that they did so and we benefitted from it. With the knowledge we took from their scientists, the space program and aeronautics advanced 20 years or more.

But, again, as a history teacher, we can't talk about a lot of that stuff because its not what people want to hear about.

Not defending anything Stone has to say and to be honest, could care less what he has to say. Just saying, history is complicated...

Yeah I have been exposed to the Soviet Union version of history, the post-collapse version, and obviously the Western perspective.

History is a messy thing where everything smells like :pooh:.

Yeah victors write history. However, when somebody comes and says that Hitler's **** did not smell as bad because people fail to put him into proper context because of the slave trade, that's just some stupid ****ing ****. It's nice for you to offer a perspective that you did, but personally I wouldn't want to appear like I'm touching that pile of **** with a 10 foot pole.

As a side note, back in the USSR they had this poem that was written in (I think) 1960s about a rich American who traveled to Moscow, saw a black guy in a hotel, and was so shocked that he refused to stay there. The moral of the story was how USSR is cool, that everybody is equal. When I was young I didn't take that story seriously because, well, how could that possibly be the case in a civilized Western world. It's funny now. I think I kind of assumed that the freeing the slaves thing and the equal rights thing were the same thing.

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What is not portrayed in the media is the major role Christianity played in the anti-semitism that was prevalent in Europe. The Catholic church was complicit in the holocaust.

Europe in general has always been and continues today to be largely anti-semetic and racist.

We like to think of them as enlightened because of their socialist economic policies.

Where does everyone think racism in the US stemmed from?

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Europe in general has always been and continues today to be largely anti-semetic and racist.

We like to think of them as enlightened because of their socialist economic policies.

Where does everyone think racism in the US stemmed from?

ask them about their treatment of the Roma and theyll tell you its a completely different situation than what we have here :ols:

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