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Newsbusters: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in Context'


Henry

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I would not have said it in the same way, but Oliver Stone does have somewhat of a point. I know it's natural for ES to be a very knee-jerk reaction kind of website where everybody knows everything, but if you actually take time to look into what Stone said and analyze bits and pieces of it, you'll see there's some truth to it. Not a lot, but some.

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1-I think you need to re-read my post. I said he was a bad man, but he did incredible things. A number of individuals fall under this catergory.

2-The number of slaves who died from the 16th to the 19th centuries is subjective. But it's obvious that a lot of africans died during the voyage to America. Some estimates say 100 million died. For arguement sakes lets say 6 million died.

3-I never justified anything. I merely gave another point of view void of emotions.

4-I said the jews cried about being gases and burned alive, but they kept their culture and dignity even when they had to endure so much. That is extremely commendable.

I never said anything about justifying Hitler's actions. I said that is hypocritical to try and call him the "bad guy", when so many nation commit autrocities. A lot of the innovatgion we enjoy was pioneered by Hitler. Truth is never black and white, without shades of gray.

I understand the point of your post as a whole, my first reply was simply to the opening sentence of "When I was in college I said that Hitler could have been a great man, but he did terrible things."

As far as the number of slaves go...yes I realize there is no accurate record of this so it is a subjective assessment. From what I've read, most historians at this point in history will list the number of slave deaths aboard ships to be 2 million roughly. I don't think it was unfair of me point out the fact you listed it as being 50 times that number.

I don't begrudge your opinions, but just as you replied to peoples reactions on the subject, I replied to yours. You can justify atrocities throughout history if you simply view them devoid of emotion, though it doesn't make them right.

To say someone "crys" about being gassed and burned alive is an extremely bizarre way to begin a compliment. It comes across as you mocking a genocide.

The idea of people being hypocritical in calling Hitler the "bad guy" simply because their country has committed acts of evil only works if they're denying their own history. If you're willing to look at history in an unbiased view and say that America has committed acts of evil throughout it's history then I see no issue with you being able to point out the obvious fact that Hitler was an evil man. You're confusing the fact that people are judging him on a moral sense and not arguing anything about his brilliance as a politician or the amazing scientific breakthroughs that came as a result of his actions.

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Let me ask you people a question: If the Jewis Holacaust did not happen, how would history judge Hitler?

It's a pointless question.

Hitler's entire economic boom was predicated on a military buildup that was not built for show, but for use. He put people to work building infrastructure, roads and such, but they were not for civilian use. The autobahn was built purely to ferry military equipment.

History would have judged him the same, because his entire goal was to do what he did. He wanted to rid Europe of jews and communism, for starters, and he wanted to establish a thousand year reich. His entire populist push was for Liebensraum, living space. The German people required it, and that meant their neighbors were going to give it to them.

You don't seem to get that the social programs and policies he enacted had one goal in mind. His entire economic plan depended on conquest. He built German industry by stealing the assets of the Jews and the other countries around him. They "legally" took over Jewish businesses and transferred ownership to a German. This wasn't a policy that just came along, it was part of the original plan. The jews were then used as slave labor which also made for a better economy, since no one legally had to pay them or even feed them to work the factories.

And if you remove that from the equation of the "what if" game, then you have to consider that no one would ever have known who he was, and thus never would he ever have been anything other than a failed artist from Vienna.

Added - If you want to count all the wonderful inventions that came out of World War II as a positive thing, OK, but understand most of them were invented in some form or another to try and keep Hitler from killing everyone.

~Bang

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No, I'm saying that comparing 6 million intentional and premeditated murders over six years is different than comparing X million deaths over 300 years.

I am also acknowledging that the slave trade and that the history of slavery in this country is dark stain on our soul. That said, because there was a slavery does not diminish or negate the horror of the attempted genocide of Hitler and if you really asked me to quantify I'd say that genocide is worse than slavery even though both are despicable.

See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible. I am not making this a racial issue. I refuse to that. It's about principle. Maybe slave traders did not mean for millions to die on their way to the new world. Maybe the idea of slaves being human beings and not cargo to be thrown over board when they die, didn't invade their conscience. Who knows. But wrong is wrong. What resulted was people dying. Like Scarface said, "Say hello to the bad guy". Hitler gives us some one to point a finger at, and feel magnanomous in our position.

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See this is why we have racial problems in this country. How dare you sit there and say that slavery in this country is less aggregious than the holocaust. Incredible. I am not making this a racial issue. I refuse to that. It's about principle. Maybe slave traders did not mean for millions to die on their way to the new world. Maybe the idea of slaves being human beings and not cargo to be thrown over board when they die, didn't invade their conscience. Who knows. But wrong is wrong. What resulted was people dying. Like Scarface said, "Say hello to the bad guy". Hitler gives us some one to point a finger at, and feel magnanomous in our position.

didnt he say "say hello to my little friend"?

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I can't believe I'm being made to make this argument. But if I had to quantify the ultimate scale of evil, I would put genocide as worse than slavery. Here's why. When you end life there is no hope. None. That's what makes what happened in the Holocaust worse. What happened in Cambodia worse. What happened in Rwanda worse. What happened in Bosnia worse. etc. The institution of slavery is unspeakably wrong. In my view, conscious, dedicated murder based on race or religion is worse.

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Ah, the venerable "Scarface" defense. Plato, Socrates, Hume and Tony Montana - philosopher's in their own time.

More seriously, are you really arguing that believing the Holocaust was more evil than the Atlantic slave trade makes one a racist?

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It's a pointless question.

Hitler's entire economic boom was predicated on a military buildup that was not built for show, but for use. He put people to work building infrastructure, roads and such, but they were not for civilian use. The autobahn was built purely to ferry military equipment.

History would have judged him the same, because his entire goal was to do what he did. He wanted to rid Europe of jews and communism, for starters, and he wanted to establish a thousand year reich. His entire populist push was for Liebensraum, living space. The German people required it, and that meant their neighbors were going to give it to them.

You don't seem to get that the social programs and policies he enacted had one goal in mind. His entire economic plan depended on conquest. He built German industry by stealing the assets of the Jews and the other countries around him. They "legally" took over Jewish businesses and transferred ownership to a German. This wasn't a policy that just came along, it was part of the original plan. The jews were then used as slave labor which also made for a better economy, since no one legally had to pay them or even feed them to work the factories.

And if you remove that from the equation of the "what if" game, then you have to consider that no one would ever have known who he was, and thus never would he ever have been anything other than a failed artist from Vienna.

Added - If you want to count all the wonderful inventions that came out of World War II as a positive thing, OK, but understand most of them were invented in some form or another to try and keep Hitler from killing everyone.

~Bang

I understand where you are coming from. But history is funny. We celebrate conquerers who gear their society to military conguest all the time. I know Hitler was about military conquests, but aren't most societies?

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To chime in on the ridiculous argument..

Slavery is pure evil

Slavery is exploitation at it's worst, but it's not murder.

Genocide is trying to make a whole group extinct.

Philosophically speaking, neither should ever be allowed to happen again. And comparing scars, so to speak, is nothing but destructive dialogue between people who really should understand one another on this level.

~Bang

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I understand where you are coming from. But history is funny. We celebrate conquerers who gear their society to military conguest all the time. I know Hitler was about military conquests, but aren't most societies?

History is written by the winners, for sure. And occasionally in history there have been histories written by winners who were monsters.

But not that time.

I think at the bottom of this is Oliver Stone's deep seated belief that controversy sells tickets.

~Bang

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Let me ask you people a question: If the Jewis Holacaust did not happen, how would history judge Hitler?
Perhaps a better question is how would history judge the Holocaust if a different people were the victim?

Hitler asked that same question and lost that gamble. (if you believe the Armenian quote to be true)

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I can't believe I'm being made to make this argument. But if I had to quantify the ultimate scale of evil, I would put genocide as worse than slavery. Here's why. When you end life there is no hope. None. That's what makes what happened in the Holocaust worse. What happened in Cambodia worse. What happened in Rwanda worse. What happened in Bosnia worse. etc. The institution of slavery is unspeakably wrong. In my view, conscious, dedicated murder based on race or religion is worse.

The slave trade was based on race, and created racial relations in this country which lead to many deaths. See you are talking about an immediate situation, and comparing it to circumstances that take place over time. but the results is millions die. Please do not under estimate the impact of slavery on this country, or how others treat each other. We give people the ammo to be cynical, because even the country for the people, by the people, purcecuted (sp) people. You have to look at the impact as a whole. With that said I am out. Quiting time. I never feel Hitler is a great man, what he did was unbelievable. He was a man that let his passions destroy him. I think we all can take a lesson from that.

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Somebody stop this thread before the **** hits the fan... It's coming I tell you... Someone Is gonna say something mindnumbingly stupid and it's gonna turn into a bs fest... You have been warned

Didn't read the thread, did you?

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I'm really referencing the posts of boobiemiles which had some somewhat controversial statements... So um don't come at me like that friend

You seem to have missed my point.

Someone already said something mind-numbingly stupid. (And who would have expected that, in a thread about Hitler and Oliver Stone?) And it already turned into a bs fest.

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You seem to have missed my point.

Someone already said something mind-numbingly stupid. (And who would have expected that, in a thread about Hitler and Oliver Stone?) And it already turned into a bs fest.

My bad... I feel like a douche...:silly:

and general tso, my post looked nothing like that so kindly eff off

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As a History teacher, let me remind everyone, History is written by the winners.

No one could defend Hitler. Period.

But, as already pointed out, the US and Russians raced to get the Nazi scientists. The Nazi's tortured and performed cruel experiments. We often forget that they did so and we benefitted from it. With the knowledge we took from their scientists, the space program and aeronautics advanced 20 years or more.

But, again, as a history teacher, we can't talk about a lot of that stuff because its not what people want to hear about.

Not defending anything Stone has to say and to be honest, could care less what he has to say. Just saying, history is complicated...

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