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WPC: Over the hill all over again?


JimmiJo

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http://web.warpathconfidential.com/?p=3577

Over the hill all over again?

By John Pappas

Warpath Confidential Editor

On Black Thursday before the start of free agency, the Redskins released 10 players, mostly veterans. Guys like Antwaan Randle El, Cornelius Griffin, Todd Collins, Randy Thomas, and Rock Cartwright. Then, during the first days of free agency, the team sat on their hands, letting the big names sign elsewhere. Even when they did start signing free agents, it was limited to just a few journeyman players in areas of need.

And all this in an uncapped offseason.

The new approach left the press wondering if general manager Bruce Allen and head coach Mike Shanahan could be taking the team in a new direction, one focused on rebuilding with youth.

But that answer would be incorrect.

With the announcement of the most recent signing of seven-year veteran Mike Furrey, what has become apparent is that Allen and Shanahan have no problem with veteran players, in fact they appear to love them. They just didn’t like some of the veterans who were here before. Since March, Washington has shown they are willing to get older to hopefully get better.

Since free agency began, the Redskins have added at least 12 players with seven or more years experience in the NFL. Nine have eight or more seasons in the league. And five, to include Donovan McNabb, Josh Bidwell, Joey Galloway, Chris Draft, and Vonnie Holliday, have played professional football 10 or more years.

Click the link above to read the full article...

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I'm not wearing any pants.

So Depends don't count as pants? :silly:

I really liked this article. For me the crucial piece was the content of the second-to-last paragraph - with limited draft picks and talent, there had to be an infusion of old guys.

You're right that there is a trend toward replacing/rebuilding with more experienced veterans, and I do think it is tied to a desire to win sooner rather than later. What I'm hoping is that it is coupled with a desire to rebuild with youth once there are picks available and a bit more depth at all positions.

I guess we'll see.

Thanks for a good read!

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If they are an upgrade sign them.

As long as you don't suffer diminishing returns. If Mike Furrey is better than Kelly play him.

The only problem with this is after one year Furrey is done and Kelly has his another season of stunted development.

We arquiring veteran RB's and WR's. Perhaps that's because we are weak there. I am comfortable that when the season kicks off we will have a better team that finished last year.

I'd signJerry Rice now if it made us better.

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Shanahan came in and was faced with some unfortunate circumstances. The team had limited picks, no quarterback, a bloated roster in terms of committed dollars, and a free agency period that due to the uncapped year prevented 4th and 5th year player from being unrestricted.

So,the team cut unproductive or overpaid vets and then went out to sign veteran depth for the short term to get the team back on its feet.

Not so unreasonable. And at the same time the team stayed away from the Julius Peppers and Adalius Thomas type free agents that were past their prime and cost too much money.

The way you know this is not a repeat of the Over The Hill Gang is the fact the Redskins didn't make those large veteran signings AND by the fact the team did not trade the #4 overall pick.

George Allen would have divested himself of that pick to acquire veterans.

The term of these contracts is short not only because of the fact most of the players are here competing for jobs but also because Allen and Shanahan know the pending lockout in 2011 is going to mean rebuilding the roster again in 2012 and in 2 years the team will want to field a squad with younger and even cheaper talent.

Why pay Peppers all that guaranteed money for one year at age 30 and then potentially see him sit out 2011 and come back at 32 in 2012?

That year out for some older players is a killer. Not everyone comes back like Riggins did after being out a full season sitting home and continuing to make an impact.

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The difference is that these old guys aren't signed to cap-killing long term-deals like Randy, Griff, ARE, etc., just one or two year trial runs for cheap.

THANK YOU.

I thoroughly dislike the article.

Has no mention of the salaries and number of years on these new veterans that we brought in. All of these guys are "vet-min + incentives" type of deals (not saying they are all minimum salary guys, just making a generalization).

I do not give a flying **** if we bring in veterans if we are paying them peanuts. It's when we pay them $100MIL contracts and they are 30 years old is when it becomes a problem.

Thumbs down.

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Over the hill all over again

This gets old. If you have a position that needs improvement and the offseason is past the draft you have no alternative but free agency. Most free agents are veterans. I don't get the logic: keep the young guy (he has great upside!) even though he sucks in lieu of the proven "old" 30yo veteran. And like it was pointed out, we are only signing these guys for 1 - 2 yr contracts - plugging holes for the season.

Give me better alts to these guys, what young guys are available who are better than this crew of quote "geriatrics": Donovan McNabb, Josh Bidwell, Joey Galloway, Chris Draft, and Vonnie Holliday?

And the converse to this arguement is Patrick Ramsey, Heath Shuler, Jason Campbell and 50-50 Rod Gardner. Going young didn't help us there and in fact with regards to those sorry QBs, set us back. Busts, all of them. Thanks Vinny. Thanks Casserly.

This arguement is limp. Haters. :mad:

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This gets old. If you have a position that needs improvement and the offseason is past the draft you have no alternative but free agency. Most free agents are veterans. I don't get the logic: keep the young guy even though he sucks in lieu of the proven "old" 30yo veteran. And like it was pointed out, we are only signing these guys for 1 - 2 yr contracts - plugging holes for the season.

Give me better alts to these guys, what young guys are available who are better than this crew of quote "geriatrics": Donovan McNabb, Josh Bidwell, Joey Galloway, Chris Draft, and Vonnie Holliday?

And the converse to this arguement is Patrick Ramsey, Heath Shuler, Jason Campbell and 50-50 Rod Gardner. Going young didn't help us there and in fact with regards to those sorry QBs, set us back. Busts, all of them. Thanks Vinny.

This arguement is limp. Haters. :mad:

Agreed. Looking at "alternatives" wasn't an option.

Find me a good young player in this FA market that didn't get overpaid.

Thanks.

I love this post.

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This gets old. If you have a position that needs improvement and the offseason is past the draft you have no alternative but free agency. Most free agents are veterans. I don't get the logic: keep the young guy (he has great upside!) even though he sucks in lieu of the proven "old" 30yo veteran. And like it was pointed out, we are only signing these guys for 1 - 2 yr contracts - plugging holes for the season.

Give me better alts to these guys, what young guys are available who are better than this crew of quote "geriatrics": Donovan McNabb, Josh Bidwell, Joey Galloway, Chris Draft, and Vonnie Holliday?

And the converse to this arguement is Patrick Ramsey, Heath Shuler, Jason Campbell and 50-50 Rod Gardner. Going young didn't help us there and in fact with regards to those sorry QBs, set us back. Busts, all of them. Thanks Vinny. Thanks Casserly.

This arguement is limp. Haters. :mad:

Here's a thought - value the draft. Build with youth. It worked for the Capitals and looks like it'll do alright for the Nationals too.

If given the choice, management should always side with youth. Add in a few smart free agent signings to round out the roster and you'll be able to compete for several seasons. Not just one before it's time to start over again.

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Here's a thought - value the draft. Build with youth. It worked for the Capitals and looks like it'll do alright for the Nationals too.

If given the choice, management should always side with youth. Add in a few smart free agent signings to round out the roster and you'll be able to compete for several seasons. Not just one before it's time to start over again.

Explain to me how Shanny and Allen were supposed to **** out draft picks that we could use this year? THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HERE THE LAST FEW YEARS.

They weren't the ones that **** away multiple picks for sub-par players. Please don't reference us wasting picks on McNabb, hes a proven STAR at the QB position for the last 10 years.

Who is to say that next year we won't keep all of our picks and re-energize our team into a youthful one? That wasn't happening this year, and no team is capable of doing that in one year.

We are making the right moves for THIS team for THIS year. As for youth, I don't see how you expected us to get draft picks for the players we had available to trade.

Horrible post.

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THANK YOU.

I thoroughly dislike the article.

Has no mention of the salaries and number of years on these new veterans that we brought in. All of these guys are "vet-min + incentives" type of deals (not saying they are all minimum salary guys, just making a generalization).

I do not give a flying **** if we bring in veterans if we are paying them peanuts. It's when we pay them $100MIL contracts and they are 30 years old is when it becomes a problem.

Thumbs down.

Explain to me how Shanny and Allen were supposed to **** out draft picks that we could use this year? THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HERE THE LAST FEW YEARS.

They weren't the ones that **** away multiple picks for sub-par players. Please don't reference us wasting picks on McNabb, hes a proven STAR at the QB position for the last 10 years.

Who is to say that next year we won't keep all of our picks and re-energize our team into a youthful one? That wasn't happening this year, and no team is capable of doing that in one year.

We are making the right moves for THIS team for THIS year. As for youth, I don't see how you expected us to get draft picks for the players we had available to trade.

Horrible post.

Wow, somebody left the door open and angry man wandered in.

Here's the thing: Who cares what they are being paid? It is an uncapped year so there is really no penalty for giving guys big money right now, and hence no point in backloading contracts with guaranteed money. Anyway, the point of the article is not to be critical of the approach, but to illuminate the extent to which the team has brought in more veteran guys, especially guys like Galloway, who is like 87 in football years.

Sorry if you took the article as negative in nature. It was not intended that way.

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Wow, somebody left the door open and angry man wandered in.

Here's the thing: Who cares what they are being paid? It is an uncapped year so there is really no penalty for giving guys big money right now, and hence no point in backloading contracts with guaranteed money. Anyway, the point of the article is not to be critical of the approach, but to illuminate the extent to which the team has brought in more veteran guys, especially guys like Galloway, who is like 87 in football years.

Sorry if you took the article as negative in nature. It was not intended that way.

I guess I sounded more harsh than I actually feel, wasn't bashing. Just saying my opinion conflicted, haha.

I actually don't mind a little negativity as you can tell from my posts. Realism is my thing. It is realistic that we are paying these over the hill guys peanuts, we can cut them at anytime.

I'd be surprised to see BOTH Mike Furrey and Joey Galloway on our 53-man roster.

Just sayin'.

Don't be offended, not everyone's gonna agree, especially around here. :)

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Explain to me how Shanny and Allen were supposed to **** out draft picks that we could use this year? THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HERE THE LAST FEW YEARS.

They weren't the ones that **** away multiple picks for sub-par players. Please don't reference us wasting picks on McNabb, hes a proven STAR at the QB position for the last 10 years.

Who is to say that next year we won't keep all of our picks and re-energize our team into a youthful one? That wasn't happening this year, and no team is capable of doing that in one year.

We are making the right moves for THIS team for THIS year. As for youth, I don't see how you expected us to get draft picks for the players we had available to trade.

Horrible post.

Sorry pal, I've been a fan of the Redskins since before Shanahan and Allen were here. So I don't completely wipe the slate clean the minute they walk in the door. If at any point in the last decade or so someone in the front office valued draft picks and building with youth, then life as a 'Skins fan would have been a lot more enjoyable.

As for your "We are making the right moves for THIS team for THIS year" statement, glad to see you remaining objective. Clearly you're in the tank for the Shanahan/Allen combo and they can do no wrong in your eyes. To each their own. I'm fine with that. And honestly, I'm good with how they've handled things thus far too. I just don't feel the need to slurp them like you do.

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Due to this year free agent class being so sparse, we were generally left with two options to add players outside of the draft. 1.) Young players who have been cut they weren't good enough to really contribute. 2.) Older players who were good contributers, but are nearing the end of their careers. I think they made the right decision by trying to find older players who can contribute and push the young guys currently on the roster for a year or two.

Going to youth for the sake of youth isn't always a good idea. Look at the Orioles right now, they have tons of young talent waiting to play, but there's no veteran presence to lead them. Putting the entire weight of the franchise on a bunch of 21-24 year olds can end up stunting their growth by getting whooped constantly.

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Wow, somebody left the door open and angry man wandered in.

Here's the thing: Who cares what they are being paid? It is an uncapped year so there is really no penalty for giving guys big money right now, and hence no point in backloading contracts with guaranteed money. Anyway, the point of the article is not to be critical of the approach, but to illuminate the extent to which the team has brought in more veteran guys, especially guys like Galloway, who is like 87 in football years.

Sorry if you took the article as negative in nature. It was not intended that way.

The article did come over as negative in the first few paragraphs, though was well written overall, I was a little confused with what the point was .

Should we have splashed the cash this off season . I am not sure what the Skins FO should have done this free agency .. hand over the massive bags of cash to Rolle and Peppers ? And if we had would we be the younger for it ?

Sure there is no cap in 2010 but then there may be no football in 2011 . Is it not better to cut away the dead wood with no penalty in an uncapped season rather than adding massive liabilities that may well be sitting at home on their sofa this time next season on strike or locked out ? .....I am not sure the CAP will be back as we knew it but I cannot imagine there will not be a successor to the CBA and by definition a CAP of some description .

And also how does a hot and cold 30 4-3 DE fit into the system ? OR a 28 year old failed CB help the team . We got one of those much cheaper in Phillip Buchanan (okay PB is 30.)

The other point is Galloway can still run and still play in June . That is where we are right now . Will he be a starter ? I doubt it . IF he makes the team will he be able to contribute more than Marko Mitchell ... defiantly ..if he can pass on some of the leasons he had learnt in the last 87 years to the young guys I am still not seeing an issue . The same goes for Bobby Wade and Willie Parker . I am not sure any of these guys will be on the team come september but if they push the young guys to be better then again I am not seeing an issue .

Point is while I am not sure the FO needs medals handing out for how they handled the offseason so far I am also not sure cheap jabs from the peanut gallery are justified either ...

As for the comment about loving the draft . That is a great idea if you have a mechanism to feed the draft picks into the team and allowing them to learn from an established core of veterans . Just getting young and inexperienced guys and throwing them to the wolves in the hope that they will some how figure it all out is just crazy .

To love and nurture the draft we need stability . And a full haul of draft picks . Still I don't think we did badly this season . We addressed OL with Capers and Williams and Cook, we potentially added youth at the FB position and picked up a thumper to play inside the new 3-4 defensive scheme .

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There is nothing in the extensive resumes of Mike Shanahan or Bruce Allen that suggests that they have what it takes to build a grade A team through the draft. Whether it's the unwillingness or the inability to do it is hard to say.

The roster-move evidence so far is about what we should have expected.

Joe Gibbs won 47% of his games in his second tour. I'd guess 55% for Allen-Shanahan.

That was a well-written piece, JJ.

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The article did come over as negative in the first few paragraphs, though was well written overall, I was a little confused with what the point was .

Should we have splashed the cash this off season . I am not sure what the Skins FO should have done this free agency .. hand over the massive bags of cash to Rolle and Peppers ? And if we had would we be the younger for it ?

Actually, JimmiJo is on the record as saying he wanted them to sign Peppers. And basically anyone else available.

On a Skinscast episode before free agency he said there is no salary cap and therefore the team should take advantage and "sign 'em all."

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Maybe Shanny & company got scared when they saw the, um, productivity, of the youth movement and figured that they better get some tutors...fast. And if the teacher is still better than the student (aw Grasshopper, can you grasp the stone?) at least there is someone on the fast track.

I think they are wagering more on the cagey vets inspiration versus their perspiration.

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