Which scheme will Shannahanagans use?

[HigSkin]

This is a great article with specifics of what to expect in Shanny's scheme.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010902175.html

Redskins Coach Mike Shanahan expected to make running game a priority

When Bruce Allen, the Washington Redskins' new general manager, introduced Mike Shanahan as the team's head coach on Wednesday, Allen went out of his way to describe Shanahan as a well-rounded coach, as much a leader as he is a great football mind.

"He's a true head coach," Allen said. "Not just one side of the ball."

Before taking the Redskins' job, Shanahan had served as a head coach in the NFL for parts of 16 seasons -- two with the Los Angeles Raiders, 14 with the Denver Broncos -- and he emphasized the need for an all-encompassing view.

"You know offense, you know defense, you know special teams," Shanahan said, "because you're in charge of the whole team."

For all Shanahan's success as a head coach, though -- the two Super Bowl titles and four division championships -- he is known, more than anything else, as an offensive innovator. Twice during his 14-year tenure in Denver, the Broncos led the league in total offense. Seven of those seasons his offenses ranked in the top three. And though the defining player from his career there is undoubtedly Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway, Shanahan's offense -- the offense he will ostensibly bring to Washington, where the Redskins have ranked in the top three in total offense just once in the past 15 years -- is based on the premise that running the ball, and sticking with the run, is paramount to opening up anything else.

"He's going to run the football," said former coach Herman Edwards, who regularly competed against Shanahan during his stints with the Kansas City Chiefs and New York Jets. "He's always had that ability. His style of football is that you pass to score, but you run to win. He lives by that philosophy."

Shanahan will have to apply that philosophy to the Redskins' personnel, deciding which pieces to keep and which to dispose of. But regardless of those decisions -- whether he keeps quarterback Jason Campbell, whether he decides to rebuild an aging and injury-riddled offensive line -- a look at Shanahan's tenure in Denver could provide clues as to what he will do here. Those who have coached against him or played for him agree: He will start by addressing the running game.

"We had John Elway and some great receivers," said Bubby Brister, who backed up Elway for three seasons under Shanahan. "But we had some of the best offensive linemen in the league, and it was all about running and playing good defense. The emphasis was all about: If we're going to win, you got to wear people out."

The record shows as much.

'Keep it simple, stupid'

Nine times in Shanahan's 14 seasons, the Broncos ranked in the top five in the NFL in rushing yards per game. In the early days, it was easy to see why. When Shanahan took over as the team's head coach in 1995, the Broncos selected running back Terrell Davis out of Georgia. Shanahan put him behind a line that included several players who would make multiple Pro Bowl appearances -- center Tom Nalen, guard Mark Schlereth, tackle Gary Zimmerman -- and went to work.

"He just kind of said, 'Keep it simple, stupid,' " said Schlereth, now an analyst with ESPN. "We were simple and we were consistent. I think one of the things that Mike was able to do was take essentially six or seven running plays and make it look like 36 or 37 running plays. He used different formations, different adjustments, motion.

"Ultimately, it's 11 guys understanding exactly what they're doing. If you change your formation or you change your shift or you change your personnel grouping, only one or two guys are lining up and giving a different look, but nine guys are doing the exact same things."

That, former players said, bred consistency, because the linemen and the running backs knew exactly what to expect. They had repeated the plays -- albeit with slightly different formations or men in motion -- in practice, then repeated them in games. The offensive linemen became experts in zone blocking, and because the groups were so cohesive and, for the most part, healthy, the Broncos, as Schlereth said, "just felt like going into a game we were going to out-execute you."

Alex Gibbs was the Broncos' offensive line coach at the time, and Shanahan, Gibbs and running backs coach Bobby Turner all preached the same things for their running backs: Don't dawdle. They talked about it in meetings and in practice. And they insisted on it in games.

"Mike always brought in guys -- and Terrell Davis was the first one and certainly the most prolific -- that were the powerful, slashing-type running backs," said Brian Habib, a Broncos guard under Shanahan for three seasons. "You make it simple for the running back. You don't mess around. Terrell was so in tune with what we were doing up front that he could find those cutback lanes. He wanted guys that just made one cut and exploded."

Davis's success in such a scheme -- he ran for 6,413 yards in his first four years in the league -- convinced Shanahan of a few principles that he carried forward. Running backs, for instance, don't have to be taken early in the draft in order to be successful. Davis was a sixth-round pick, and was the best back in the league before injuries cut short his career; he gained only 1,194 yards from 1999 to 2001, then retired.

What happened to the Broncos' ground game thereafter? From 2000 to '07, a span of eight straight seasons, Denver ranked in the top 10 in the league in rushing yards. And it seemed not to matter who was running the ball. Davis, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis -- the current Redskin -- Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns and Tatum Bell all had seasons of at least 1,100 yards under Shanahan. None were first-round picks.

Setting up defenses

The other aspect of Shanahan's running attack that remained consistent, regardless of who served as the back, was his ability to set teams up early in a game for something he wanted to do later. Because the Broncos were so committed to the run, play-action passes worked splendidly. But early in games, as Edwards said, "He's taking a look at you."

continue reading.....

[jtyler42]

The only problem here is that we don't really have an RB who is in the mold of a "one cut and go" guy. Portis was when he was there, but Gibbs got him and turned him into a power back. You need a guy with good cutting ability (duh) and a big burst of speed. Nobody on our roster is like that. Alridge certainly has the speed, but he is also probably too small to be much of a threat to do it between tackles reliably. Ganther sees holes well and has ok cuts but doesn't have much of a burst of speed to get to the next level. I'd think the ideal guy (as far as the draft) would be someone like Spiller or maybe Best. Not sure I would want to use a 1st rounder on Spiller (it would only be if we traded back: he is probably a mid to late 1st rounder). Best could be there in the 2nd. Both guys are about 5'10-5'11 and around 200 lbs.

I disagree with this...ALL of our backs are one cut and go guys, and would fit this scheme perfectly...Shanahan has had fast RB's in Portis, and Tatum Bell, and he's had bigger slasher type backs like we have in Mike Anderson, Terrell Davis, and Olandis Gary...Size or speed don't determine who fits a ZBS running attack...The key aspects for a RB in this scheme are patience, and vision...Not speed or burst...The problem with Portis isn't his cutting ability or lack of speed, it's the fact that his vision is horrible, to the point that it looks like he's running with his eyes closed b/c he misses a lot of cutback opportunities...

[wvtbred]

ran the WCO, which the Texans led the league in passing. I'm sure the offense will target Campbells strengths, which Zorn never did. The Texans threw the ball downfield, took advantage of Schaubs arm.

Zorn didn't throw the ball down the field, and the opposing defenses never respected the offense.

Uh excuse me but downfield passing is anything but one of Jason's strengths.

[Veretax]

I have a feeling there will be a lot of Running Backs in FA. Surely one of them could fit. Hey anyone want to take a Flyer on Ladanian Tomlinson?

[wvtbred]

I am also sure Ganther, Aldridge, Betts and Cartwright would love to run in a scheme like that.

[4skins23]

Well you've spent as much time if not more writing about JC then you have about the actual offense.

Just like in this post above.

Hail.

Wether or not you think Carson Palmer is a good QB has nothing to do with the offense the Shanahan's have run in the past.

Some people in this thread have actually been discussing typical elements of either Mike Shanahan's or Kyle Shanahan's offenses, when will you?

BTW-

Neither the Bears nor the Steelers were run heavy teams this year.

I'm not talking about the Shans because I don't know about it. Thats why I have been asking!

[wysknz1]

From what I have read, the game plan is different every week, depending on the opposing defense weakness.

.

Now there's a novel idea.....

[Operations]

Bubba posted this link to a great article about Mike's offense.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/09/AR2010010902175_2.html

"He's going to run the football," said former coach Herman Edwards, who regularly competed against Shanahan during his stints with the Kansas City Chiefs and New York Jets. "He's always had that ability. His style of football is that you pass to score, but you run to win. He lives by that philosophy."..........

The other aspect of Shanahan's running attack that remained consistent, regardless of who served as the back, was his ability to set teams up early in a game for something he wanted to do later. Because the Broncos were so committed to the run, play-action passes worked splendidly. But early in games, as Edwards said, "He's taking a look at you."

In terms of basic philosophy, he sounds a lot like Gibbs. Which is a good thing.

[4skins23]

I disagree with this...ALL of our backs are one cut and go guys, and would fit this scheme perfectly...Shanahan has had fast RB's in Portis, and Tatum Bell, and he's had bigger slasher type backs like we have in Mike Anderson, Terrell Davis, and Olandis Gary...Size or speed don't determine who fits a ZBS running attack...The key aspects for a RB in this scheme are patience, and vision...Not speed or burst...The problem with Portis isn't his cutting ability or lack of speed, it's the fact that his vision is horrible, to the point that it looks like he's running with his eyes closed b/c he misses a lot of cutback opportunities...

That and he can't stay healthy. 'Skins need a stud RB. Portis just can't hang anymore.He likes to talk more than he produces on the field. The othe 30 RB's on the roster just aren't capable for one reason or another, imo. Gimme a young just drafted LT or Shawn Alexander and we can rid the team of most of the extras. That would really free up some space on the roster. Maybe some cap room.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

This is a great article with specifics of what to expect in Shanny's scheme.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010902175.html

Redskins Coach Mike Shanahan expected to make running game a priority

continue reading.....

I actually feel a lot better about the Shanahan hire after reading this. It still concerns me that all the articles about Shanahan seem to exclude much talk about defense. Strong D is always the other side of the running game equation, or, like other commenters have pointed out, today's offenses will strike too quickly (like Dallas last night, disgustingly) and too often for it to work.

[Darth Tater]

If he runs a WCO, game plans will be based on the strengths of his team and the weaknesses of his opponents. Plays called will mostly be based on game situation and what's working though he will call plays only intended to probe his opponent.

[darrelgreenie]

I disagree with this...ALL of our backs are one cut and go guys, and would fit this scheme perfectly...Shanahan has had fast RB's in Portis, and Tatum Bell, and he's had bigger slasher type backs like we have in Mike Anderson, Terrell Davis, and Olandis Gary...Size or speed don't determine who fits a ZBS running attack...The key aspects for a RB in this scheme are patience, and vision...Not speed or burst...The problem with Portis isn't his cutting ability or lack of speed, it's the

+1

Uncanny

I was literally gonna post something excatly like this.

And also i think that Mike S. has proven that he can teach his 1-cut scheme and has proven that he find production from late round RBs.

And i think Rock mentioned that Denver tried to trade for Betts before.

fact that his vision is horrible, to the point that it looks like he's running with his eyes closed b/c he misses a lot of cutback opportunities

I think Portis problem is that he hasn't been in shape and he didn't appear to be running very hard for extra yards. It was like he figured the OL didn't open many holes and that he was gonna pick his spots to run 'hard' therefore he often missed the few holes that were their.

[mi6]

Uh excuse me but downfield passing is anything but one of Jason's strengths.

Jason is an inaccurate passer -- especially, when it comes to the deep ball. He has the worst record for making 40 plus yard completions. :mad:

[darrelgreenie]

Here's a link to Brian Billick giving a quick breakdown of the bootleg/waggle aspect of the Mike Shanahan's offense in Denver:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80bb03f6/WK-7-Playbook-Denver-s-bootlegs-and-waggles

[darrelgreenie]

Here's a link to Brian Billick giving a quick breakdown of the bootleg/waggle aspect of the Mike Shanahan's offense in Denver:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80bb03f6/WK-7-Playbook-Denver-s-bootlegs-and-waggles

I guess no one was interested in that video or talking about the bootleg/wagle.

I think its a part of their offense that has excellent carry over, its been part of our offense under Zorn although not as big a part as in the Shanahans.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Slant route, a classic WCO route, is a staple of both Mike and Kyle's offenses.

Here is Kyle's WR Johnson at the board explaining how he gets open when he runs a slant:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80be2eab/WK-8-Playbook-Solomon-Wilcots-with-Andre-Johnson

I've never felt that Moss was good at slant because he doesn't easily get off jams and isn't the best 'hands' catcher i.e. adjusting to the ball and extending to make the catch away from the body.

I think Malcolm has the hands and the body type to become much more effective using this route, provided he improves his route running.

I think Devin also has the body to run the slant but i think he's in the same boat as Moss when it comes to hands.

[CapitalDefense]

One that works, hopefully

[Milkbone Jackson]

[Mad Mike]

Zorn didn't throw the ball down the field, and the opposing defenses never respected the offense.

Maybe that's because Zorn wasn't the QB. :hysterical:

[darrelgreenie]

Classic extremeskins.

When given the chance to discuss football concepts schemes and Xs and Os.

You get posts that either try to bash the QB or drop one liners.

Another good thread down the drains.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I actually feel a lot better about the Shanahan hire after reading this. It still concerns me that all the articles about Shanahan seem to exclude much talk about defense. Strong D is always the other side of the running game equation, or, like other commenters have pointed out, today's offenses will strike too quickly (like Dallas last night, disgustingly) and too often for it to work.

They exclude talk about defense simply because Shanahan is an offensive mind. He has had a variety of guys at defensive coordinator that have produced a wide variety of results while his offense has always been very good. Shanahan definitely understands the value of good defense, the formula for it just isn't something he's mastered.

Classic extremeskins.

When given the chance to discuss football concepts schemes and Xs and Os.

You get posts that either try to bash the QB or drop one liners.

Another good thread down the drains.

The links you posted were quite interesting... but hard to base a lot of discussion off of. That's one of the inherent problems of discussing X's and O's when you aren't trying to apply those X's and O's to a very specific situation.

[skins island connection]

I mentioned earlier about hoping he will run a 3 rec. set most of the time w/ single rb & t.e, and at times a 2 t.e. 2 rec. set.

Not trying to start another JC bashing thread, but once we get an accurate passing QB and a healthier o-line, mixing up pass and run will keep defenses guessing.

It would help alot to get a bruising rb that can catch and block, which Shanny seemed to find and develop with ease, but the only thing I am concerned with is the style of running game he brings; The NFCE made a name for itself by having a power running game, but adapting to more of a scat-back type of rb would be a mistake IMO; naturally all of this is moot until the line gets better.

Getting a Jacobs-type back with Betts and Carty would be great, and I know Shanny will find a QB he thinks will be a good long-term choice.

I like the pass setting up the run scheme more than a power running team, because shutting down a 1 dimensional team is alot easier...

[darrelgreenie]

The links you posted were quite interesting... but hard to base a lot of discussion off of. That's one of the inherent problems of discussing X's and O's when you aren't trying to apply those X's and O's to a very specific situation.

No one is saying the discussion should be based of the links, there are plenty scheme specific elements to discuss. I posted the links to give some visual support for some of the concepts.

And the X's and O's were discussing aren't play specific as you implied there more global or scheme specific i.e. the main concepts linked to either Kyle's offense with the Texans or Mike's offenses in Denver.

Maybe you haven't read the entire thread but I gave my take on the X's and O's of Kyle's offense:

o its a pass 1st offense but i can't tell if its by design or because of Slaton's sophmore slump

o 5 step drop based passing attack with alot of intermediate routes lots of deep slants, deep ins, deep crossing routes and some out routes; they use far less 3 step drop then we do and they also sprinkle in some 7 step drop they go deep often

o they're very multiple and use more formations then we did

o motion is a key element in their offense, they have some motion/shifting on almost every play, they move Daniels and Johnson around alot

o they make good use of action passes- play action, rollouts/bootlegs; especially in the redzone

o they do a good job of attacking coverages and usually get receivers more open then what i typically see from Zorn's offense (one of my major knocks against Zorn was i thought his schemes were great against man-to-man when JC had time but i thought his schemes struggled against zones), Kyle seems to know how to get people open against zone schemes

o they do good job of using the TE downfield

o they of course use a ZBS scheme with a focus on 1 cut and go and zone reads

Those links i posted are video breakdowns of a specifics elements that are common to both Kyle's and Mike's offenses.

Matt Terl had this video on Denvers 1 cut Zone Blocking Scheme:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80aec9cf/Billick-on-Denver-s-zone-blocking-scheme

btw-

love the sig

[darrelgreenie]

It would help alot to get a bruising rb that can catch and block, which Shanny seemed to find and develop with ease, but the only thing I am concerned with is the style of running game he brings; The NFCE made a name for itself by having a power running game, but adapting to more of a scat-back type of rb would be a mistake IMO; naturally all of this is moot until the line gets better.

Getting a Jacobs-type back with Betts and Carty would be great, and I know Shanny will find a QB he thinks will be a good long-term choice.

I like the pass setting up the run scheme more than a power running team, because shutting down a 1 dimensional team is alot easier...

Mike/Kyle Shanahan don't really use a 'bruising rb' nor do their RBs catch alot of passes.

And the backs in the ZBS are 1 cut running backs so their is probably much less 'scat back(ing)' then you think.

The backs in the ZBS run downhill and make 1 cut around the LOS they taught not to dance.

Passing to set up the run isn't how i think of Mike Shanahan's offenses, dude loves to run the ball then uses bootleg/waggles and play-action based of the successful run formations.

If any of the 2 passes to set up the run it would probably be Kyle who seems like the more pass happy of the 2, but again its hard to see wether his passy fancy was by force or by design because Slaton was having a bad year.

[Atlass]

Will it be run heavy or pass-happy? Is it west coast?

If Zorn couldn't change him into a good QB, I know Shanahanagans can't.

:40oz::40oz::40oz::pint::koolaid:

So you think Zorn is better able to tap the talent of a young QB than Mike Shanahan???

Let me buy you another beer:chair:

[Darth Tater]

So, the threat of the boot keeps the backside speed guys stay home making it less likely they'd have the angle on a cutback meaning even a back with less speed might pop a pretty long run. In other words, instead of the back having to set up the secondary, if he gets the cutback, there is a good chance that their already set up.

By the way, any reference to Shanny in goal situations?