alexey Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I know what your saying, but I disagree again with your definition of control... Palestinians have no control in Gaza at all. Gaza is walled off from the rest of the world and the borders are patrolled by the Israeli Defense Force who do not allow anyone in or anyone out. This includes any aid in the form of food, medicine, and construction materials. Mind you that the Gaza Strip is not a large place by any means and it is home to 1.5 million people who are mostly unemployed. There is no such thing as "my" definition of control. In some ways Israel is in control. In some ways Palestinians are in control. In some ways Radical Islamists are in control. Different groups are in control in different ways. It is my experience that the muslims that harbor desire to kill jews do so because their lives have been made so horrific that they literally have no other option since surrounding Islamic countries do not consider them citizens. It's like being in a room with a balloon expanding killing whoever it touches and there's no where for you to go. When it comes to violence, there is always an option of NOT doing it. I am do not see how blowing up a pizzeria could be the only option in any situation, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 The responses you are seeing are based on the presumption that you came in with an agenda and to make a point. The start of your discussion rings of intellectual dishonesty. This is a conversation we have had both civilly and aggressively a thousand times on this board alone. Burgold- If I came here with any agenda at all it was to gain knowledge about how people perceive the conflict vs. how it is in reality. How am I being intellectually dishonest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 There is no such thing as "my" definition of control. In some ways Israel is in control. In some ways Palestinians are in control. In some ways Radical Islamists are in control. Different groups are in control in different ways.When it comes to violence, there is always an option of NOT doing it. Okay now we are getting somewhere... I ask that you provide examples to back up your statements to add to the discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Alexey-There are no Palestinian controlled lands and there never really were any after Israel declared statehood in 1948. The areas such as the West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli controlled. Why do you think the Palestinians harbor a desire to kill Jews? The reason I ask what I do is because a lot of the views you are stating are not grounded in the reality of what is happened/is happening there. Well the Palestinians might not be in the situation they're in today if they hadn't let themselves be used as a pawn by the neighboring (and fellow Muslim) nations. Israel had been a state for a few hours in 1948 before all of its neighbors launched a war on them to "drive them into the sea." The Palestinians got screwed when their neighbors told them "get out of the way, we're coming" and then refused to settle them inside their own borders. There are still Palestinian "refugee" camps, which have existed for decades, in places like Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. Hell, even today there have been stories of Egypt trying to seal the border with Gaza to prevent a flood of refugees into their country. But, unfortunately, history shows that to the winner go the spoils. Israel won every war its neighbors threw at it, and each time they took more and more buffer land to prevent foreign armies from amassing at the borders just a few miles from all the major cities. Syria and Israel are both still contentious over the (Isreali controlled) Golan Heights because of how stragecially important that area is. The West Bank was a buffer with Jordan, and the Gaza strip was kept after Isreal gave the Saini Peninsula back to Egypt for their historic peace accords. The Palis are essentially getting screwed by both sides. Isreal acts selfishly, but they're doing so out of self-preservation being surrouned by enemies. The people who should logically by the Palis' allies use them as pawns whenever they see fit. However, since it seems that the Palis act out all their aggression toward one side, and in some quite barbaric ways at times, it's hard to hold them blameless in all this (especially in the last decade or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I know what your saying, but I disagree again with your definition of control... Palestinians have no control in Gaza at all. Gaza is walled off from the rest of the world and the borders are patrolled by the Israeli Defense Force who do not allow anyone in or anyone out. Why did this happen? In the 70's my family in Haifa worked side by side in a nuclear power plant with Palestinians. Palestinians came and went and had a pretty equal life inside Israel. According to my family, the groups went out together ate, drank, sang, danced and did everything that people do. So, what changed? Did the Israelis suddenly decide that Palestinians were unclean and evil and as you suggest that a process of slow extermination was the way to go? Did the Jews get jealous of Palestinian wealth and decide that they needed to marginalize them and shove them into ghettos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well the Palestinians might not be in the situation they're in today if they hadn't let themselves be used as a pawn by the neighboring (and fellow Muslim) nations. Israel had been a state for a few hours in 1948 before all of its neighbors launched a war on them to "drive them into the sea." The Palestinians got screwed when their neighbors told them "get out of the way, we're coming" and then refused to settle them inside their own borders. There are still Palestinian "refugee" camps, which have existed for decades, in places like Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. Hell, even today there have been stories of Egypt trying to seal the border with Gaza to prevent a flood of refugees into their country.But, unfortunately, history shows that to the winner go the spoils. Israel won every war its neighbors threw at it, and each time they took more and more buffer land to prevent foreign armies from amassing at the borders just a few miles from all the major cities. Syria and Israel are both still contentious over the (Isreali controlled) Golan Heights because of how stragecially important that area is. The West Bank was a buffer with Jordan, and the Gaza strip was kept after Isreal gave the Saini Peninsula back to Egypt for their historic peace accords. The Palis are essentially getting screwed by both sides. Isreal acts selfishly, but they're doing so out of self-preservation being surrouned by enemies. The people who should logically by the Palis' allies use them as pawns whenever they see fit. However, since it seems that the Palis act out all their aggression toward one side, and in some quite barbaric ways at times, it's hard to hold them blameless in all this (especially in the last decade or so). That's my opinion of this also. Regardless of how or why Israel was created....that isn't the argument here. If you attack the other guys.....and you lose. You're going to lose something. Things just don't go back to before the attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Burgold-If I came here with any agenda at all it was to gain knowledge about how people perceive the conflict vs. how it is in reality. How am I being intellectually dishonest? Jrew, It's not just my perception, but obviously many on the board who responded to your opening post with hostility, but I'll try to answer the question as to why your post seemed intellectually dishonest. I'm an International Relations student who has been studying this conflict for the better part of two decades. In my studies and experiences, the things I have read in America seem to be the total polar opposite of what I have seen first hand in the region so I wanted to start this open discussion to see what everyone knows about his conflict. What this opening 'graph basically is saying is: I am an expert on this who has been studying and witnessing this issue for twenty years. What I see being said in America is garbage. I want to know why you accept and believe this garbage. BTW, I'm open to all thoughts and opinions, so I can understand why you allow yourself to be deluded by this garbage. That is not an intellectually honest search for knowledge. It's also pretty presumptive to assume no one else has first hand knowledge or that your knowledge, perspective, or experience is superior to everyone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well the Palestinians might not be in the situation they're in today if they hadn't let themselves be used as a pawn by the neighboring (and fellow Muslim) nations. Israel had been a state for a few hours in 1948 before all of its neighbors launched a war on them to "drive them into the sea." The Palestinians got screwed when their neighbors told them "get out of the way, we're coming" and then refused to settle them inside their own borders. There are still Palestinian "refugee" camps, which have existed for decades, in places like Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. Hell, even today there have been stories of Egypt trying to seal the border with Gaza to prevent a flood of refugees into their country.But, unfortunately, history shows that to the winner go the spoils. Israel won every war its neighbors threw at it, and each time they took more and more buffer land to prevent foreign armies from amassing at the borders just a few miles from all the major cities. Syria and Israel are both still contentious over the (Isreali controlled) Golan Heights because of how stragecially important that area is. The West Bank was a buffer with Jordan, and the Gaza strip was kept after Isreal gave the Saini Peninsula back to Egypt for their historic peace accords. The Palis are essentially getting screwed by both sides. Isreal acts selfishly, but they're doing so out of self-preservation being surrouned by enemies. The people who should logically by the Palis' allies use them as pawns whenever they see fit. However, since it seems that the Palis act out all their aggression toward one side, and in some quite barbaric ways at times, it's hard to hold them blameless in all this (especially in the last decade or so). Okay like I said now we are getting somewhere... *None of my comments are being made with the intention of insulting the poster.* In History, it was declared that there would be a state for the Jews and one for the Palestinians side by side before 1948. In that year when Israel declared statehood it began forcing Palestinians into the West Bank and Gaza Strip pushing out the indigenous population before a single Arab soldier stepped foot in the region. When the Arab nations declared war on Israel don't you think it might have been out of fear the new Jewish nation would expand to their nations if not held in check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The root cause is the Romans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Most Palestinians do not harbor a desire to kill Jews, and those that do, do so for different reasons. I agree completely, having just spent time there and having watched the Jews, Muslims and Christians, not to mention the Israelis, Palestinians, and Americans (not to mention other nationalities) exist very well together. Our guide is Palestinian and he kept saying how well the people work with each other, granted that might have been fluff but every day I watched Jew work beside Palestinian. We also had the privilege of attending a lecture on the current political climate while we were there given by a Palestinian professor and an expert in Israeli policy. What was amazing to me other than the fact that they both calmly sat at the table together was the fact that they both acknowledged that they both agreed on 90% of the issues that face the region. What it comes down to at this point is really two-fold: 1) The Israeli settlements that violate the UN agreement number 242 which calls for a halt to the spread of Israeli settlements 2) The control of Jerusalem They both agreed that the first one violated the UN agreement but you could tell that neither side is going to give up Jerusalem to the other, which is why it was really surprising to hear the Israeli offer up the idea of International control over Jerusalem. What really messes things up is that right now the Palestinians really have two voices speaking for them: 1) The PLO (Yasar Arafat's group) who is now the voice of reason which acknowledges the right of state of Israel to exist something that Hamas does not recognize. Which is made even more ironic knowing that the West spent 30 years trying to weaken the PLO only to find that in their success they created a vacuum which Hamas was only to pleased to fill. 2) Hamas a terrorist group that does not recognize the right of Israel to exist. Israel's side is further complicated by the fact that they have several voices as well: 1) Zionists Jews: who believe that the current state of Israel is God's preordained nation and as such it is their right to claim any and all land that they can. 2) the Ultra Orthodox Jews: who do not believe that the state of Israel that exists today is the legitimate nation of God because it is a man made institution and not God made. Add to that the majority of people over there who just want to live and work in peace and the whole thing becomes very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Jrew,It's not just my perception, but obviously many on the board who responded to your opening post with hostility, but I'll try to answer the question as to why your post seemed intellectually dishonest. What this opening 'graph basically is saying is: I am an expert on this who has been studying and witnessing this issue for twenty years. What I see being said in America is garbage. I want to know why you accept and believe this garbage. BTW, I'm open to all thoughts and opinions, so I can understand why you allow yourself to be deluded by this garbage. Burgold- Actually your 100% right... haha I'm not joking at all... It baffles me why people here in America believe what they do so what better way to find out then to actually ask people... The only way I think America will get anywhere on this issue is if people can state their opinions and challenge them with facts on the ground so that the greater reality of the problem can come to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter44 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The creation of the Jewish state makes zero sense to me, I know everyone felt sorry for the Jews after WW2 but that's like kicking everyone out of NYC and giving it back to the Native Americans, then have some foreign power arm them to the teeth to control and kill all who oppose the new state and forcing all of New Yorkers into ghettos... and CT and NJ doesn't want them...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 The root cause is the Romans. When I first glanced at your reply I thought you said the root cause was Romo sits to pee... hahahahaha... For a second I wanted to just blame Tony Romo sits to pee for the crisis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The West Bank was a buffer with Jordan, and the Gaza strip was kept after Isreal gave the Saini Peninsula back to Egypt for their historic peace accords. From what I understand the West Bank was pretty much given up by Jordan so that Jordan didn't have to deal with the Palestinian "problem" there in the West Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Burgold-Actually your 100% right... haha I'm not joking at all... It baffles me why people here in America believe what they do so what better way to find out then to actually ask people... The only way I think America will get anywhere on this issue is if people can state their opinions and challenge them with facts on the ground so that the greater reality of the problem can come to light. The problem is that there are multiple facts that have validity. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a big chicken and the egg war. Depending on your starting point you find different villains. See, your goal here is not to have a discussion but to enlighten the blinded and yet you seem like someone who is completely unaware of his own blindness. More, it's very hard to have an open discussion when your opening premice is "I'm right and you're a bunch of idiots" Ironically, that's a part of the difficulty within the Israeli/Palestinian dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Oh, and the part where you say... I'm an International Relations student who has been studying this conflict for the better part of two decades. but list your age as 27 doesn't quite jibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Okay like I said now we are getting somewhere...*None of my comments are being made with the intention of insulting the poster.* In History, it was declared that there would be a state for the Jews and one for the Palestinians side by side before 1948. In that year when Israel declared statehood it began forcing Palestinians into the West Bank and Gaza Strip pushing out the indigenous population before a single Arab soldier stepped foot in the region. When the Arab nations declared war on Israel don't you think it might have been out of fear the new Jewish nation would expand to their nations if not held in check? Israel declared statehood on May 4, 1948. The very next day it was attacked by all its neighbors. Before that the entire area was under British control. So while you can blame the Jews/Zionists for the civil war in the area that erupted in 1947, when the declaration of a 2 state region was decided but not enforced, that falls on the British for not keeping control of its colony. But it goes back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which decided there should be 2 states, Jewish and Arab, made out of Palestine. So it's not like there was no warning. This does not excuse any atrocities commited by the Jewish forces during that civil war, but are you saying you'd "understand" if you lived in MD in 1915 and Confederate die-hards were launching raids into your state? After all, it's been 60+ years since 1948. If they're still sore about what happened then, before most of them were born, that's hard to justify. If they're justifying it by more recent actions, then the civil war of 1947 and by extent anything that happened before the first war on Isreal is out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 See, your goal here is not to have a discussion but to enlighten the blinded and yet you seem like someone who is completely unaware of his own blindness. The problem here is that I have done more research and seen more first hand then most people in this country. I have read from all sources both pro Israel and pro Palestine. The evidence leads me into the same direction everytime. The problem I see is that the average joe isn't aware of the evidence that I am aware of. Are you stating that if I don't come to a Pro Israeli conclusion then I must be blind and missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrew1223 Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Oh, and the part where you say... I'm an International Relations student who has been studying this conflict for the better part of two decades. but list your age as 27 doesn't quite jibe. I am a returning student finishing up my masters program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 From what I understand the West Bank was pretty much given up by Jordan so that Jordan didn't have to deal with the Palestinian "problem" there in the West Bank. I'd heard that before, and completely forgotten that. I just chalked it up with all the other "contested lands" as spoils-of-war, but I could easily be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The problem here is that I have done more research and seen more first hand then most people in this country. I have read from all sources both pro Israel and pro Palestine. The evidence leads me into the same direction everytime. The problem I see is that the average joe isn't aware of the evidence that I am aware of. Are you stating that if I don't come to a Pro Israeli conclusion then I must be blind and missing something? Nope. Just that you have a degree of intellectual arrogance that makes your ability to have an "open" discussion limited. More, people have spent their entire lives delving into this. Thinking that you have mastered it, understand it, and know all the answers, and come to the definitive conclusion smacks of more than just a little hubris. Additionally, you have just called every "Joe" out there blind if they have come to a different conclusion than you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Nope. Just that you have a degree of intellectual arrogance that makes your ability to have an "open" discussion limited. More, people have spent their entire lives delving into this. Thinking that you have mastered it, understand it, and know all the answers, and come to the definitive conclusion smacks of more than just a little hubris. Especially since I sat in front of a 60 year old Palestinian and a 60 year old Israeli who have lived in the region their whole lives and who are both very well educated and versed in the dialogue and neither one of them acted like they had all of the answers. One of the best things I saw out of them both was the fact that they were fully able to recognize the failings on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The creation of the Jewish state makes zero sense to me, I know everyone felt sorry for the Jews after WW2 but that's like kicking everyone out of NYC and giving it back to the Native Americans, then have some foreign power arm them to the teeth to control and kill all who oppose the new state and forcing all of New Yorkers into ghettos... and CT and NJ doesn't want them...lol This is probably because you do not know history.... Here is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stadium-Armory Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The problem here is that I have done more research and seen more first hand then most people in this country. I have read from all sources both pro Israel and pro Palestine. The evidence leads me into the same direction everytime. The problem I see is that the average joe isn't aware of the evidence that I am aware of. Are you stating that if I don't come to a Pro Israeli conclusion then I must be blind and missing something? No, he's saying that you're not honestly trying to have an open discussion. And its obvious by the way you're framing your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 BTW, sounds like a really cool trip, Asbury. Love to hear more details and anecdotes at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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