Cosell's Coaching Tape

[bobzmuda]

His analysis sounds spot on.

Not really. He says he doesn't avoid and re-set. How many times have you seen Campbell do that avoid and re-set move from Zorn's bag drill. A ton.

He probably didn't do it much this game because there was really good protection.

Leads me to think he hasn't watched much of the Skins.

But with their record, it's not that he really has a reason to. lol

[Oldfan]

No, we don't. When we have great quarterbacks, we perform like a great team. Campbell is not a great quarterback.

I don't see what you're missing here.

I'm missing your evidence for this statement, NC. I thought Jurgy was a great QB, but our team wasn't great. I thought Theisman, Rypien and Wliiams were average QBs, but the teams they played on were great.

IMO, Campbell is a great C quarterback, who gave an A minus performance against the Saints. Cosell's breakdown is a raft of crap. He could not possibly have seen those negative intangibles on film, especially not in a single football game where Campbell played so well.

[MustangSteve]

I thought Theisman, Rypien and Wliiams were average QBs, but the teams they played on were great.

I think Joe Theisman was one of the most complete QB in the league for those few years he played. His passes were perfect, the bombs and short passes, he could run out of the pocket, and the man could read a defense as good as anyone. If you blitzed him, you better get him or he would make your defense pay severely. He brought us home our 1st Super Bowl trophy, and won the game on a defensive play, batting the ball out of Kim Bocampers hands for what would have been a Miami TD. He led the Redskins offense to the highest scoring in NFL history the following year in 1983, and took us back to another Super Bowl. I call that far better then an average QB.

Rypien was great for one year, although he wasn't a scrambler, he had excellent pocket presence, and mixed with a great O-line was only sacked 9 times the entire season, including the Super Bowl. He had the best long ball in the NFL in 91, this offense had 40 plays that went 40 yards or more that season. If we just have 2 plays over 40 yards today, we think our offense has done something :doh:

This man got us to the playoffs 2 years in a row, and won it all the 2nd time. Had the perfect football mind, what Joe Gibbs called it, and made very few mistakes. Average QB's don't do that, they fold in big time pressure, "look at Campbell for example", Rypien excelled in it. As far as being on a great team, no doubt about that. This was the most complete football team to ever step onto the field, no team has ever entered the Super Bowl with the #1 ranked offense, defense and special teams. Although Buffalo cried we wasn't that good, it only took them a half to find out how good we really were. If Joe Gibbs didn't call off the dogs in the 2nd half, this would have been another Denver beat down for sure.

As far as Williams, an average QB could not bring his team from 14 points behind against the Bears in Chicago, in 20 below zero weather, when that Bears defense was the most feared in the league. No average QB throws 4 TD's in a quarter on the biggest stage in the NFL. These things just don't happen to average QB's or average people Oldfan.

[Oldfan]

I think Joe Theisman was one of the most complete QB in the league for those few years he played. His passes were perfect, the bombs and short passes, he could run out of the pocket, and the man could read a defense as good as anyone. If you blitzed him, you better get him or he would make your defense pay severely. He led the Redskins offense to the highest scoring in NFL history in 1983, I call that far better then an average QB.

Rypien was great for one year, although he wasn't a scrambler, he had excellent pocket presence, and mixed with a great O-line was only sacked 9 times the entire season, including the Super Bowl. He had the best long ball in the NFL in 91, this offense had 40 plays that went 40 yards or more that season. If we just have 2 plays over 40 yards today, we think our offense has done something :doh:

This man got us to the playoffs 2 years in a row, and won it all the 2nd time. Had the perfect football mind, what Joe Gibbs called it, and made very few mistakes. Average QB's don't do that, they fold in big time pressure, "look at Campbell for example", Rypien excelled in it.

As far as Williams, an average QB could not bring his team from 14 points behind against the Bears in Chicago, in 20 below zero weather, when that Bears defense was the most feared in the league. No average QB throws 4 TD's in a quarter on the biggest stage in the NFL. These things just don't happen to average QB's Oldfan.

Theisman: You have no idea how well Theisman read defenses and neither do I. Besides, defenses were much simpler in the 80s.

Rypien: You can't see pocket presence and neither can I. Mark was a statue protected by the most dominant O-line of it's time.

Williams: Even average QBs have outstanding days. Campbell, an average QB, was outstanding against the Saints. I gave him an A minus.

[DieselPwr44]

Newsflash:

You must now be a world famous chef before knowing if a steak is overcooked.

Seriously, where do some of you people come from?

Amazing, isn't it??

[Oldfan]

Newsflash:

You must now be a world famous chef before knowing if a steak is overcooked.

Seriously, where do some of you people come from?

Cosell is pointing out the same things that everyone else here, after a ton of games, already knows.

Amazing, isn't it??

If McD's overcooked steak analogy was a good one, we would not be interested in the opinion of a BS artist pretending to be a world famous chef, would we?

[DieselPwr44]

If McD's overcooked steak analogy was a good one, we would not be interested in the opinion of a BS artist pretending to be a world famous chef, would we?

When guys like Jaws,Hoge and Cosell...along with Casserley and others point out things on the coaching tape that alot of folks have seen here,I'll take their word over :

A guy who tells everyone you don't know what your talking about and that we can't see QB performance,who pulls random percentages out of his rectum,based on nothing.

A guy who posts articles 24 hrs a day and has the thickest homer glasses available to man.(the man wanted Spurrier for a 3rd year for Heaven's sake)

So if the old saw you and bubba use: No one knows,except the coaches,cause they have access to the tape(the same tape Cosell,Jaws and Hoge look at)......

Then don't ever comment on how awesome Carson Palmer and your boy,Jay Cutler are.

'Cause you don't know.

[NewCliche21]

Bubba, Longshot, and Oldfan:

Don't wanna quote you all since it'll take up a page or two, but I do want to address you:

We won three Super Bowls under Gibbs. Joe Gibbs. He's the reason that we won those, and, unfortunately, that was nearly twenty years ago.

It really is a quarterbacks league now, and while Campbell has been doing well the past three games, ESPECIALLY a week ago, he's just not one of the quarterbacks who will win us a championship.

My dream at the quarterback position? Something goes on in Campbell's head and the Saints game turns into the status quo and we don't have to worry about the position for another seven or so years. I just don't see that happening.

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong, but my gut's telling me that I'm right.

[mexaskin]

yeah. apperantly the only reason campbell threw for 350 plus was because the saints let him. I know its the holidays but i dont think so

[darrelgreenie]

It really is a quarterbacks league now, and while Campbell has been doing well the past three games, ESPECIALLY a week ago, he's just not one of the quarterbacks who will win us a championship.

My dream at the quarterback position? Something goes on in Campbell's head and the Saints game turns into the status quo and we don't have to worry about the position for another seven or so years. I just don't see that happening.

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong, but my gut's telling me that I'm right.

Equal and lesser QBs then JC have won championships, although at JC current level they're more the exception then the rule. (But, imo JC hasn't reached his full potential yet)

I think what you are looking for from the QB position is mastery.

Very few acheive it and very few maintain it.

But mastery in most cases takes time and the right combination of circumstances.

Talent, coaching, scheme, continuity, protection i.e. OL, support of the FO all work in concert create an environment where a QB can achieve mastery.

I think there are so few QBs on the track towards or have already achieved mastery. These "franchise" QBs are rare because they're aren't many top level franchises that have those elements in place.

Its much easier for a franchise to blame its failures on a QB then to admit that they've failed as a franchise.

As a fan of the team this off-season is going to be interesting to say the least.

[mexaskin]

Bubba, Longshot, and Oldfan:

Don't wanna quote you all since it'll take up a page or two, but I do want to address you:

We won three Super Bowls under Gibbs. Joe Gibbs. He's the reason that we won those, and, unfortunately, that was nearly twenty years ago.

It really is a quarterbacks league now, and while Campbell has been doing well the past three games, ESPECIALLY a week ago, he's just not one of the quarterbacks who will win us a championship.

My dream at the quarterback position? Something goes on in Campbell's head and the Saints game turns into the status quo and we don't have to worry about the position for another seven or so years. I just don't see that happening.

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong, but my gut's telling me that I'm right.

i hope so too. But sometimes u have to make s**t into sugar. we won three super bowls with qbs that will never be in the hall of fame. I dont think they even hold any major records. they were just decent. Good team play won those superbowls.

[mexaskin]

darrelgreenie . u hit the nail on the head

[skinsfan66]

I would not say defenses were simplier then, when referring to Joey T, Just the start of things to come. Buddy Ryans kids still use his and with great success, Giants D would dominate any of these Offenses. We had a D that was as good as any of these. So would the niners some of the greatest D-players came out of that era in my opinion. Also how many times did we see Sonny come in with 2mins left of the game to win it thats why he is in the hall and he did play on a few good teams. Cambell had time all day long the O-line played great and he just blew it again in crunch time. The d-fense blew it in crunch time again also. Kind of what he was saying. We have been playing good enough to win games but Jason cannot come through and neither can the D.

[Oldfan]

Bubba, Longshot, and Oldfan:

Don't wanna quote you all since it'll take up a page or two, but I do want to address you:

We won three Super Bowls under Gibbs. Joe Gibbs. He's the reason that we won those, and, unfortunately, that was nearly twenty years ago.

It really is a quarterbacks league now, and while Campbell has been doing well the past three games, ESPECIALLY a week ago, he's just not one of the quarterbacks who will win us a championship.

My dream at the quarterback position? Something goes on in Campbell's head and the Saints game turns into the status quo and we don't have to worry about the position for another seven or so years. I just don't see that happening.

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong, but my gut's telling me that I'm right.

Cliche, I think you are over-simplifying here.

Joe Gibbs won with a talent-rich team. The NFL wasn't a coach's league then and its not a QB's league now. Yes, the passing game carries more weight now than then. But, the passing scheme created by coaches is a major factor in a QB's success. Some schemes make it more likely that any QB running it would play better.

I can't see Jason Campbell ever becoming more than an average QB, but there's always the possibility that the coaching and 52 players on the roster surrounding him will improve enough that most fans and the media will think he's vastly improved.

[herb mul-key]

His analysis sounds spot on.

yep especially the int

[NewCliche21]

i hope so too. But sometimes u have to make s**t into sugar. we won three super bowls with qbs that will never be in the hall of fame. I dont think they even hold any major records. they were just decent. Good team play won those superbowls.

Cliche, I think you are over-simplifying here.

Joe Gibbs won with a talent-rich team. The NFL wasn't a coach's league then and its not a QB's league now. Yes, the passing game carries more weight now than then. But, the passing scheme created by coaches is a major factor in a QB's success. Some schemes make it more likely that any QB running it would play better.

I can't see Jason Campbell ever becoming more than an average QB, but there's always the possibility that the coaching and 52 players on the roster surrounding him will improve enough that most fans and the media will think he's vastly improved.

But why not get a better quarterback? At this point, I don't care about improvement unless he improves, in the next four games, to be a Brady or Manning or Brees. That's the type of quarterback that I want, not one that I can really feel for or acknowledge improvement of.

And while yes, serviceable quarterbacks have won before, that is very much the exception.

As for Gibbs, I really wouldn't invalidate his coaching ability. Gibbs is a god among men, especially in his first go-round. He won with three quarterbacks and three running backs; nobody's done anything close to that.

[Oldfan]

But why not get a better quarterback?

We should not be satisfied with a grade C player at any position. If the opportunity to upgrade the QB position presents itself, we should seize it.

I was in favor of trading for Jay Cutler if the price was reasonable. I'd still do it. Cutler is a grade A talent caught in a bad situation.

[TheLongshot]

I can't see Jason Campbell ever becoming more than an average QB, but there's always the possibility that the coaching and 52 players on the roster surrounding him will improve enough that most fans and the media will think he's vastly improved.

There is nothing wrong with a QB being average, or any other position for that matter. As I said, you don't have great players everywhere on your team. What is important is that you play great as a team. Roethlesburger, for example, hasn't played great in his Super Bowl appearances, but they've won because they have a team around him that plays great. Meanwhile, there is no doubt that John Elway was a great QB, yet he only won one SB because it was the only time he had a great team around him. Dan Marino is considered one of the best pure passers ever, but he barely could sniff a SB.

And yes, when you don't have a great player at a position, you probably should always look to see if you can upgrade the position. Zorn is a believer in bringing in new guys at the QB position every year to push whoever is there. Course the problem with bringing guys in at the QB position is that it isn't a very interchangeable position. Bringing in a new guy can change everything about an offense.

[NewCliche21]

We should not be satisfied with a grade C player at any position. If the opportunity to upgrade the QB position presents itself, we should seize it.

I was in favor of trading for Jay Cutler if the price was reasonable. I'd still do it. Cutler is a grade A talent caught in a bad situation.

Don't wanna hijack, but no. No no no. Never. No.

There is nothing wrong with a QB being average, or any other position for that matter. As I said, you don't have great players everywhere on your team. What is important is that you play great as a team. Roethlesburger, for example, hasn't played great in his Super Bowl appearances, but they've won because they have a team around him that plays great. Meanwhile, there is no doubt that John Elway was a great QB, yet he only won one SB because it was the only time he had a great team around him. Dan Marino is considered one of the best pure passers ever, but he barely could sniff a SB.

And yes, when you don't have a great player at a position, you probably should always look to see if you can upgrade the position. Zorn is a believer in bringing in new guys at the QB position every year to push whoever is there. Course the problem with bringing guys in at the QB position is that it isn't a very interchangeable position. Bringing in a new guy can change everything about an offense.

Ben won the last Super Bowl. He won it. Perfect pass, great catch, but perfect pass.

You don't win a Super Bowl with an average quarterback. Average tight end? Sure. Average receiver? Sure. Average punter? Sure. However, you don't win with an average quarterback. None of the teams you mentioned would've won without elite quarterbacks. Marino couldn't make it because his team was bad.

You go on to say that the quarterback position isn't very interchangeable because bringing in a new guy can change everything about an offense, but you had said that an average quarterback is fine just like any other position. You can't have it both ways.

[DieselPwr44]

Cutler is a grade A talent caught in a bad situation.

How do you know? Are you his coach? Do you have access to game tape?

[TheLongshot]

Ben won the last Super Bowl. He won it. Perfect pass, great catch, but perfect pass.

Sure. Course, Ben wouldn't have been in that position of Harrison doesn't pick off Warner. Warner by far had the better game, but yet Pittsburgh won the game.

You don't win a Super Bowl with an average quarterback. Average tight end? Sure. Average receiver? Sure. Average punter? Sure. However, you don't win with an average quarterback. None of the teams you mentioned would've won without elite quarterbacks. Marino couldn't make it because his team was bad.

I don't think anyone would consider Thiesmann, Williams and Rypien any more than average. Great performances, sure, but overall none of those guys are great QBs.

You go on to say that the quarterback position isn't very interchangeable because bringing in a new guy can change everything about an offense, but you had said that an average quarterback is fine just like any other position. You can't have it both ways.

I'm talking more about the impact of replacing a QB, which is pretty huge. In the short term, an average QB who is very familiar with the offense is probably going to perform better than a more talented QB who isn't as familiar with the offense. We saw that with Campbell and Collins in 2007.

How do you know? Are you his coach? Do you have access to game tape?

I think the key word is "talent". Personally, I think Campbell is a grade A talent as well. The question for both is if their heads are going to end up holding them back in their career.

[NewCliche21]

Sure. Course, Ben wouldn't have been in that position of Harrison doesn't pick off Warner. Warner by far had the better game, but yet Pittsburgh won the game.

Let's not split hairs here.

I don't think anyone would consider Thiesmann, Williams and Rypien any more than average. Great performances, sure, but overall none of those guys are great QBs.

I don't think that I was clear. The NFL *IS* a quarterback's league now. Those guys you mentioned were 20, 25 years ago. Different league at this point.

I'm talking more about the impact of replacing a QB, which is pretty huge. In the short term, an average QB who is very familiar with the offense is probably going to perform better than a more talented QB who isn't as familiar with the offense. We saw that with Campbell and Collins in 2007.

Well, clearly. We're not winning the Super Bowl anytime soon, so we should have a clear, grade-A quarterback waiting to take over. Hell, even if we pulled a Green Bay and had the next Rodgers waiting in the wings, then I'd be happy.

I think the key word is "talent". Personally, I think Campbell is a grade A talent as well. The question for both is if their heads are going to end up holding them back in their career.

Campbell's deep ball isn't grade-A by a longshot (see what I did there? ). And there is no point having all of the physical tools without having the head to utilize them.

[darrelgreenie]

We should not be satisfied with a grade C player at any position. If the opportunity to upgrade the QB position presents itself, we should seize it.

I was in favor of trading for Jay Cutler if the price was reasonable. I'd still do it. Cutler is a grade A talent caught in a bad situation.

Just out of curiosity who do you think was in a worse situation: Campbell last year or Cutler this year?

-I think Cutler is a talented QB but i wouldn't rate him significantly higher then JC. Cutler has a quicker release but i would put them even in most other categories.

[Oldfan]

How do you know? Are you his coach? Do you have access to game tape?

I've seen him play. I saw grade A talent long before I heard Bobby Beathard, Ernie Zampese, and those NFL scouts quoted by ESPN, agree with me.

[Oldfan]

Just out of curiosity who do you think was in a worse situation: Campbell last year or Cutler this year?

Who knows?

-I think Cutler is a talented QB but i wouldn't rate him significantly higher then JC. Cutler has a quicker release but i would put them even in most other categories.

I can understand you thinking you know more than me about QB evaluation, but do you really think you know more than all those NFL scouts, ex-GMs, ex-coaches and the GM of Chicago who weighed in on Cutler's value when he was traded?