WP DCSportsBog - Merril Hoge Breaks Down the Skins

[Oldfan]

When you got only one pass catcher who consistently gets open, granted this was just one game, isn't that a problem?

If the defense wanted to shut down Cooley, they could shut down Cooley. They have chosen to shut down Moss, so Cooley is the prime beneficiary. However, it's obvious that the offense needs to find ways to get more weapons into the mix. What we don't know is how the blame should get distributed for the slow progress of the young receivers.

[DieselPwr44]

non-analytical = non-answer;)

Walsh's WCO was designed for ball control with the short-to-medium pass as the primary weapon. So, it is not designed to be a dynamic scoring machine like the Coryell. So, don't use the number of points scored as a measure of its success. Our red zone problems are another matter.

But, according to you, Walsh's offense was designed to work with inferior talent that he had in Cincinnati. He created it out of necessity.

If you don't have players more physically talented than the opponent, Walsh's scheme design was to level the field to give his guys a chance.

You have insinuated on this board that Montana wasn't much of an athlete or quarterback(you're wrong ) and that he was successful only due to scheme.

Now you're advocating that everyone in this offense needs to beat their guy one and one and that scheme doesn't matter as much?

So which is it Oldfan?

[Oldfan]

....So which is it Oldfan?

Quote me. Where did I insinuate the following?

You have insinuated on this board that Montana wasn't much of an athlete or quarterback(you're wrong ) and that he was successful only due to scheme.

Quote me. Where did I advocate the following?

Now you're advocating that everyone in this offense needs to beat their guy one and one and that scheme doesn't matter as much?

[rubynj]

I think we need more toss plays to the running backs.That will enable our young recievers a chance to bully the smaller corners they face week in and week out,and get away from the aggressive linebackers in the middle. How about a fake toss to one side and then a screen pass to the other...if that can't fool the lions,rams and bucs...I don't know what will.

[MrJL]

Just make your point. Don't give me crap.

The success rate on any play depends on how well it is executed. There is nothing about the curl route itself that argues for its use in specific schemes.

What scheme will work against man coverage if the receivers can't win their matchups? The Wishbone?

What scheme would you suggest for the Redskins base offense?

I'm not the most analytically knowledgeable fan, but I think the thing with curl routes is someone would be tackled almost immediately in man coverage. So even if the WR wins the matchup it doesn't matter much, especially on short ones.

[Oldfan]

I'm not the most analytically knowledgeable fan, but I think the thing with curl routes is someone would be tackled almost immediately in man coverage. So even if the WR wins the matchup it doesn't matter much, especially on short ones.

There are advantages and disadvantage to every pass route. The advantage to the curl is that its tough to cover when timed right. Jurgensen and Charley Taylor, Peyton Manning to Marvin and Reggie -- could beat single coverage almost every time.

[Reaganaut]

I think most fans had figured this out already. It's nice to see that someone in the know agrees. Zorn is a moron for trying to force his system on a team that isn't built that way. Cerrato is a moron for hiring a coach (again) that is so radically different from the last. We've gone from Norv Turner's offense to Martyball to a college offense to an outdated 1980's offense, to a clone of Mike Holmgren. This has happened on average every two years. Players aren't being maximized because this isn't Philly or New York where they keep the same system year in year out. Gregg Williams and Al Saunders would have had us in the playoffs last year. This year, we'd be 4-0 already. All of this is due to Cerrato "not being able to work with" Gregg Williams. Heck, Snyder wasn't able to work with Marty so why not go wtih precedent. Another genius football mind Fred Drasner said Marty was a maniac on the sideline from day one and in proved as much in his book "I'm a Rich **** Who Owns Part of a Football Team, And Who Are You?"

Drasner and Snyder couldn't be more out of place in the ownership of an NFL team than a couple of nerds at a crack rapper party. The NFL executives who approved Snyder and Drasner must HATE the Redskins is what I take away from this. These guys are the true Dumber and Dumberers of this whole debacle. Cerrato is along for the ride just like half the players on the team and all the coaches still on the payroll. We are being taken for granted as fans and taken to the cleaner by these greedy people. It's truly sad.

[Skinsinparadise]

If the defense wanted to shut down Cooley, they could shut down Cooley. They have chosen to shut down Moss, so Cooley is the prime beneficiary. However, it's obvious that the offense needs to find ways to get more weapons into the mix. What we don't know is how the blame should get distributed for the slow progress of the young receivers.

Granted it was just one sample, but watching the receivers closely I'd put it on them, they weren't getting open. There was a WP article this week which sort of backs up what I saw about them not getting separation.

Joe Theisman has said that really every QB in a game will not spot at times an open receiver so he doesn't make a big deal if it happens occasionally to JC or anybody else.

But yeah personally I paid special attention to this specific issue becuase some JC detractors like to say go to a game and you'll see WRs open on a ton of plays and JC simply doesn't spot them. It didn't seem to be even remotely that to me in that Tampa game.

[tiger187126]

hodge: bad blocking, scheme, routes, receivers, coaching

ES: you're right hodge it is campbell, wow you're smart

oh and for all you guys arguing about coverage and systems. they were playing man, but that doesn't mean that the safeties weren't still playing 2 deep. if that's the case and there is no receiver to take the safety deep on the play he can get over top for the curl and the corner can release high and cover low while still in man. if that happens or even appears to happen than the curl is out.

as for air coryell vs. walsh's WCO. no one runs either so drop that argument. no offense is run in the same way that they were run even a year (unless you would enjoy being unemployed.)

good offenses run whatever it is that their opponent can't defend. if it's pass first, dink/dunk, power run, etc.

that is zorn's main problem, he believes so much in scripting and his own system that he refuses to change it and continues to run the same thing every week. you never hear belicheck talking about a "system" because they do whatever it takes to win. McDaniel gone? who cares he didn't hold the key to some exotic type of system that guarantees victories.

in this league your system better be adaptation. you better figure out what you do well and the other team does not do well and you better exploit it. that goes for both sides of the ball.

oh and campbell can't run our offense? then why does he look so good in the no huddle? or throwing on first down and second down?

campbell doesn't look good in 3rd and long with limited receivers running routes, but who does? unless you're playing our defense that is.

[TheDiplomat]

I think we need more toss plays to the running backs.That will enable our young recievers a chance to bully the smaller corners they face week in and week out,and get away from the aggressive linebackers in the middle. How about a fake toss to one side and then a screen pass to the other...if that can't fool the lions,rams and bucs...I don't know what will.

Yeah this has always pissed me off. We run sweeps about once or twice a season. 99% of our run plays are stretch.........smdh

[MrJL]

We've gone from Norv Turner's offense to Martyball to a college offense to an outdated 1980's offense, to a clone of Mike Holmgren. This has happened on average every two years.

Of course that average only exists because we only had one year of Norv under Snyder and one year of Marty.

[21forlyfe]

Granted it was just one sample, but watching the receivers closely I'd put it on them, they weren't getting open. There was a WP article this week which sort of backs up what I saw about them not getting separation.

Joe Theisman has said that really every QB in a game will not spot at times an open receiver so he doesn't make a big deal if it happens occasionally to JC or anybody else.

But yeah personally I paid special attention to this specific issue becuase some JC detractors like to say go to a game and you'll see WRs open on a ton of plays and JC simply doesn't spot them. It didn't seem to be even remotely that to me in that Tampa game.

So everysingle one of our young WR's never get open? Sounds like another excuse for JC and Corn:doh:

[SkinsFTW]

Of course that average only exists because we only had one year of Norv under Snyder and one year of Marty.

2 of norv, 2 of spurrier, 2 of Zorn, 4 gibbs, and they switched the offense after 2 years of that too. So they have literally changed it every 2 or less years.

[Oldfan]

as for air coryell vs. walsh's WCO. no one runs either so drop that argument.

Norv's scheme is Coryell based. Several are WCO based.

that is zorn's main problem, he believes so much in scripting and his own system that he refuses to change it and continues to run the same thing every week.

He had to teach a base offense last season. Now, he's expanding on it.

you never hear belicheck talking about a "system" because they do whatever it takes to win.

Belichick describes his base offense as Fairbanks/Perkins, but in 2007 ran 52% of his offensive plays from the shotgun spread which Matt Bowen has described as a WCO out of the shotgun.

[ThomasRoane]

There are advantages and disadvantage to every pass route. The advantage to the curl is that its tough to cover when timed right. Jurgensen and Charley Taylor, Peyton Manning to Marvin and Reggie -- could beat single coverage almost every time.

Not to mention that most curl and stop routes are option routes. The receivers and the QB must be on the same page. Which is why sometimes QB's throw what appears to be a terrible pick then you find out later the receiver was the bone head who read the defense wrong.

Contrary to what others here are saying evidence has been posted that Campbell is missing open receivers. Where is your evidence? Don't give me 'I saw this on that one play.' What do you do for a living? Why would I take your word?

It's funny that anyone would put stock in an ESPN analyst. Used to be a good program but now they're too busy trying to scoop someone or bringing in pretty boys to get ladies to watch sports center. Or some has-been ex superstar, fired coach or a failure as a GM (Vinnny for one). Jaws could break a passing game down but Hodge? A fullback who took one too many shots to the head?!?!?

We have a qb that has a quick release and can read a defense. I wouldn't be surprised if danny is pissed at the Z man cause he won't bench JC. I'll give Zorn credit for sticking by his guy. But I'm afraid JC will be his albatros.

Many players have insinuated that there are some young players hanging out around town acting like they're all that. I think we can cross out Orakpo, Tryon and Mason. But there are three second round picks who are:

a. Not tough enough to get off bump and run consistently

b. Not smart enough to read a defense

And both go back to the root of the problem. Our owner's failure to appoint a real football guy who knows WTF he's looking at when he evaluates talent! Instead of someone who makes their picks based on the video highlights they see on youtube!

Exhibit A: Keith Eloi (aka Pool Jumper)

B: Barnes the guy who makes people puke but has yet to hit a real nfl player like that (or make it into a regular game)

c: Fat Albert stomping on a cowboy's head (although I don't hold that against vinny. A guy that hates the cowboys that much is a must have)

[ScreamingAmish]

All this talk of Zorn needing to adjust the scheme to his talent made me wonder aloud: What if Dan and Vinny mandated that he play WCO or bust? Doesn't this sound like the kind of boneheaded decision they would make? I mean, everyone else is winning with it, why not us? I could easily see them telling Zorn during the hiring process that they want him to turn the Redskins into a WCO no matter what. Since Zorn is a newbie HC and wants to please his new boss, why wouldn't he go along with it?

Not that I have any direct evidence of course, but it's a possibility I thought we should consider.

HTTR

[Oldfan]

All this talk of Zorn needing to adjust the scheme to his talent made me wonder aloud: What if Dan and Vinny mandated that he play WCO or bust? Doesn't this sound like the kind of boneheaded decision they would make? I mean, everyone else is winning with it, why not us? I could easily see them telling Zorn during the hiring process that they want him to turn the Redskins into a WCO no matter what. Since Zorn is a newbie HC and wants to please his new boss, why wouldn't he go along with it?

Not that I have any direct evidence of course, but it's a possibility I thought we should consider.

HTTR

From the coaches they interviewed, and the hiring of Zorn as OC initially, I think it's safe to assume that Dan and Vinny had decided to go WCO for our base offense. I think it was a good decision that will bear fruit in time if they stick with it.

Most Redskins fans would disagree with me, but, in the past, most Redskins fans have approved of previous Snyder decisions and they've been wrong. So, the odds are with me.

[ThePreciating]

From the coaches they interviewed, and the hiring of Zorn as OC initially, I think it's safe to assume that Dan and Vinny had decided to go WCO for our base offense. I think it was a good decision that will bear fruit in time if they stick with it.

Most Redskins fans would disagree with me, but, in the past, most Redskins fans have approved of previous Snyder decisions and they've been wrong. So, the odds are with me.

I agree with you. A pass-oriented attack is how the NFL is won these days. In the 80's, it was won on the ground.

Look at the LT chargers - loaded with talent, should have had a super bowl. They just can't keep up with high powered aerial attacks.

It's time to transition. The receivers we drafted are prototypical WCO receivers. Big, fast. Right now, we've got Moss who is too dangerous not to use, despite his small size. It's been to difficult to get the ball to him in space, but when we do, he's gone. You can't take a player like that off the field, but you also can't give up on your system just because he and Randle El don't fit it. So, we're left with this weird sort of transition offense.

However, it is on the coaches to figure out how to design an offense that uses our young WCO guys and still our speedsters like Moss. Somehow, people on this board want to blame Snyder and Cerrato instead.

[Oldfan]

I agree with you. A pass-oriented attack is how the NFL is won these days. In the 80's, it was won on the ground.

Look at the LT chargers - loaded with talent, should have had a super bowl. They just can't keep up with high powered aerial attacks.

It's time to transition. The receivers we drafted are prototypical WCO receivers. Big, fast. Right now, we've got Moss who is too dangerous not to use, despite his small size. It's been to difficult to get the ball to him in space, but when we do, he's gone. You can't take a player like that off the field, but you also can't give up on your system just because he and Randle El don't fit it. So, we're left with this weird sort of transition offense.

However, it is on the coaches to figure out how to design an offense that uses our young WCO guys and still our speedsters like Moss. Somehow, people on this board want to blame Snyder and Cerrato instead.

We're seeing things exactly the same way.

Unless Dan and Vinny are indeed the clowns that the media and fans think they are, they know they gave Jim Zorn the tough assignment that you described well, and they will cut him plenty of slack.

[maskedsuperstar]

I totally agree with Hodge, and I know a lot of us here at ES have been saying this. The Skins don't have the players for WCO. That is the problem with Danny being in charge of things. A good owner would hire a good GM to hire a coach who would play to the strengths of the team. The Skins were playoff caliber with these same players the past couple of years, yeah they are older now but I mean come on. You have to build your scheme around your players. Players make the plays that win the games, the X and O's just give them direction.

well, the Skins have 2 players that played in the WCO before, Moss and Portis. The Skins have struggled on offense the last 10 years. The defense has carried this team long enough.

[maskedsuperstar]

This just tells me Zorn will not be around next year. Not taking advantage of the skills of your players and not calling plays to not only maximize their talent, but not counter what the defense is trying to do will get you canned.

How about execution? Dropped balls, missed blocks etc. See, the young WR's although talented, don't know the offense. The WCO takes time too learn. Will not happen in 2 years.

Everyone is bracing for Synder to fire Zorn. Not going to happen, IMO. Going through some adversity is part of building a team. Fans and media preach about patience. And then turnaround and want Zorn fired?

[AU Burgundy & Gold]

Braxford, Reaganut, and others are spot on and I've felt this way for quite awhile as well. Hoge predicted on draft day that Mike Williams (USC) would be out of the league in 2 yrs, and made other bold predictions on players based on thorough film room analysis. The Redskins are a classic example of why we need a GM who'd have a thorough evaluation of the team's strengths and weaknesses, talent level, correlating system effectiveness, on an ANNUAL BASIS without trying to reboot every year. The players have said similar things about "Continuity" and this being the biggest dilemma versus the team's talent level. Jansen, Cooley, Campbell, Samuels, and the majority always talk of the need for continuity without constant change every year.

Snyder has too much ego and denial to hire a GM and wants to see his FO philosophy pan out no matter what. Another classc example, albeit of beating a dead horse. This is why I've felt a team will acquire Campbell via FA for a low level contract, utilized him in a system that parallels his talents, have an actual strong FO in place, yet prosper from his untapped capabilities. You can also tell Zorn's playcalling stubborness and philosophy by some of his comments. The scheme is never wrong, it's always the players. Yet, it's obvious to us that the shotgun and no huddle are effective, but he's hesitant to utilize them because it restricts his scripted playcalling and he doesn't like the shotgun. A lot of teams use the shotgun such as NO, Pats, Colts, and you should adjust to what is actually moving the the chains.

It seems like the coaching staff doesn't watch prior year game tapes to thoroughly evaluate our existing talent. In 2007, Gibbs 2.0 finally let Campbell run shotgun and no huddle during the later portion of the season and he had some good outings including the home loss in DC vs Philly (3 TDs with Keenan McCardell/Thrash as your tiop WRs), 350yrds and multiple TDs in Dallas, etc. Sellers was also implemented more than just a blocker during that period. We currently blend a Gibbs run game, but with a WCO system?

[Oldfan]

AU Burgundy & Gold -- ....You can also tell Zorn's playcalling stubborness and philosophy by some of his comments. The scheme is never wrong, it's always the players. Yet, it's obvious to us that the shotgun and no huddle are effective, but he's hesitant to utilize them because it restricts his scripted playcalling and he doesn't like the shotgun. A lot of teams use the shotgun such as NO, Pats, Colts, and you should adjust to what is actually moving the the chains....

The passing game is just 20 games into learning the WCO, a difficult scheme to learn because of the precision it requires. Why do you doubt that execution is the problem?

The players agree that execution is the problem. Do you know better than both the coaches and the players?

No team in the NFL uses more shotgun than the Patriots. In 2007, they were the first to use the gun on more than half (52%) of their snaps. But, they have been in their base offense under center since 2000. We need to learn a base offense.

[ScreamingAmish]

From the coaches they interviewed, and the hiring of Zorn as OC initially, I think it's safe to assume that Dan and Vinny had decided to go WCO for our base offense. I think it was a good decision that will bear fruit in time if they stick with it.

Most Redskins fans would disagree with me, but, in the past, most Redskins fans have approved of previous Snyder decisions and they've been wrong. So, the odds are with me.

I agree that it is a good long term solution. And if we're not worried about short term production then it's fine now. I guess my post was really in reply to this quote in the article:

"The great demise for any coach is when he's unwilling to adapt his philosophy to the strengths of his personnel," Hoge said. "I don't care what level you're at, eventually you have to evaluate the strength of your personnel and adjust your philosophy to those strengths."

If we're concerned at all about doing well this season, shouldn't we modify the scheme to fit our talent, and gradually work our way to a pure WCO as the talent progresses? Or are we as a team saying "WCO or Bust"?

Not that I can tell you what the right scheme for our current talent is, just thinking out loud.

[Skinsinparadise]

So everysingle one of our young WR's never get open? Sounds like another excuse for JC and Corn:doh:

What a shock, a JC basher joining the debate. It seems to happen whenever JC's supporting cast is criticized. Yeah sorry JC has the best supporting cast in the league, everyone says so, right? He has the best O line, best receivers, best everything. We who don't see that are just out of touch, right?

And that all goes double for our young wide receivers, who doesn't say they are the best, where don't you read the rest of the league gushing about these guys, they make all the top ten lists of hot young players to watch.

Look dude, I didn't say they were NEVER open. I just said it struck me how they rarely got open, and for that matter got separation on the line of scrimmage -- in that game.

Why does everything need to be extreme relating to JC? I didn't watch the game with an agenda. I have personally said in other posts that am mixed on JC. But yeah with some posters, it seems like they want to hear that JC is the bane of everything bad about this team.

If JC really was that horrible, Zorn would have to be the dumbest coach in America by a mile. If JC was really blind as a bat and WRs were running wildly open on route after route wouldn't Zorn bench him?

And sorry to report what I did but yeah I didn't see WR's running wildly open in the Tampa game for the most part. And if you read my post again, you'd see I said he had a horrible first half.

As for the young receivers, am not counting those guys out. I was just saying during that game I was unimpressed. But that's me. If you think they are fantastic -- good for you. I still think they can be good, but they didn't strike me that they played well in THAT game.