Baculus Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 You mean the proposed system that no one can actually tell you how we're going to pay for?Sure slap on another several million people. Couldn't hurt, right? I think the people that are left of center on this board still don't comprehend that Universal Heathcare is impossible in this country without everyone paying 50% or more of their gross income in taxes vis-a-vis what the Euro do. Sorry, I don't believe it. Unless the U.S. is the only nation in the world that is seemingly unable to achieve what every other first world nation has done so: create some sort of universal coverage system. We can put a man on he Moon but we cannot resolve health care? Wow -- not exactly inspiring words from you, my friend. The Right seemingly didn't balk at the unknown factor of invading two countries and adding a trillion dollars to our debt. But now, suddenly, health care reform to provide the medical needs of our citizens just cannot be done. It's just befuddling. I don't think we are unable to fix this -- I think we are unwilling to fix it. We have folks such as twa saying that "low income workers are a tax burden," and others complaining about having to pay for someone else's problems. In short, many of us, specifically on the Right, do not have much solidarity with their fellow citizens. At least with those citizens that they consider undesirables or a "burden." Give money for corporations and war profiteers: That's great! It's capitalism, baby! Provide for the poor: I don't my tax going to help out those lazy good for nothings or those sneaking across the border Mexicans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 So are they are tax burden or not? Casting aspirations on those you do not know only makes you look like a idiot. Pass the POS if you got the votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 So are they are tax burden or not?Casting aspirations on those you do not know only makes you look like a idiot. Pass the POS if you got the votes. As to the first question, you are assuming that the poor don't work. You are making assumptions about a whole class of people. You are equating an entire class of people to a "burden." And before we talk about your ultimate conclusion to relive this "burden" keep in mind that Red states have some of the greatest ranks of the poor in this nation. So, what do you want to do about it? Obviously, the poor and illegals are, to you, a larger issue then any such notion as providing assistance to those in need. To the rest of your post -- come again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 As to the first question, you are assuming that the poor don't work. You are making assumptions about a whole class of people. You are equating an entire class of people to a "burden."And before we talk about your ultimate conclusion to relive this "burden" keep in mind that Red states have some of the greatest ranks of the poor in this nation. So, what do you want to do about it? Obviously, the poor and illegals are, to you, a larger issue then any such notion as providing assistance to those in need. To the rest of your post -- come again? We are not gonna have other people carrying your burden for you (Guess who?:hysterical:) I know that even WORKING low income earners are a burden to other taxpayers...that is life and a fact. Wtf does where they live in the US matter? Just what do you consider need?? We provide emergency car and free clinics ,is assistance giving everyone the same level of health benefits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 I don't think many of you have looked at the economic studies of it.Low income workers are a tax burden and now you wish to subsidize 12 million+ more than we already do? The notion of preventative care saving money is rather faulty as well by most studies...but I AM curious how far they are gonna go with that REQUIRE Goaldeje. More fines?...Deny coverage?...Give them financial incentives? The sad part is people want to say hey just add them to the fold. What they don't think about is we are basically adding 20% of the population of France! Fact is, pretty much every illegal is either non working or low income, which means they would be getting income tax refunds and not even paying into the system. Talk about a kick in the nuts for the American tax payer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 The sad part is people want to say hey just add them to the fold. What they don't think about is we are basically adding 20% of the population of France! Fact is, pretty much every illegal is either non working or low income, which means they would be getting income tax refunds and not even paying into the system. Talk about a kick in the nuts for the American tax payer. this is true, any sort of amnesty program is going to have some sort of caveat, like, if you accept amnesty you give up your right to get money back from the government, or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 http://www.journal-news.com/news/hamilton-news/krispy-kreme-fined-for-hiring-illegal-immigrants-locally-195473.html?imw=Y Krispy Kreme agreed to pay a $40,000 fine settlement for violating immigration laws by hiring illegal immigrants at its Lawton Avenue plant, U.S. immigration police said. ICE officials said an audit revealed the company had employed 25 unauthorized workers locally and did not have required paperwork for all workers at the plant. 40k for 25illegals seems like its worth it to hire them. should have been 100,000+ that goes to the whistleblower and ICE for future funding. http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/mar/22/state-illegal-immigrant-hiring-law-wont-work/ State illegal immigrant hiring law won’t work Nevada is told federal role preempts effort to fine employers You have to communicate fed to state.. fix the laws that undo each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I don't want my tax going to help out those lazy good for nothings or those sneaking across the border Mexicans! Pretty well summed up thanks I guess the bottom line is, do you believe that healthcare is a right. I for one do not. Should the govt provide for those who cannot on their own. Yes. But not for everyone. Only about 14 million people are uninsured who truely need to be. If the govt could reform healthcare in way that doesn't cost the nation a red cent and doesn't raise taxes, to where those who want health insuance can afford it on their own, than I am all for it! That's not what Obama and his govt want to do though. They want a govt paid for helathcare hand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 If the govt could reform healthcare in way that doesn't cost the nation a red cent and doesn't raise taxes, to where those who want health insuance can afford it on their own, than I am all for it! Why do you hate capitalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Amnesty is a tricky situation. On the surface it sounds bad, and it sounds as if it rewards illegal entry into the US. I don't know if offering amnesty is a good idea,, it's ripe for abuse, but at the same time, throwing them all back over the border would only make it worse. I don't have health insurance. It's too expensive. And I sure don't like the idea of paying for someone else's who isn't even a citizen, or only becomes a citizen because they refuse to abide the law. But, this is the process of negotiation. Obama proposes his side, and the right should propose theirs, and then both work to the middle for a reasonable bill most everyone can get behind. But that doesn't happen. The right's SOP these days is to try to kill everything, no matter what it is. Party politics are more important then the actual issues. There is no negotiation. And that sucks. ~Bang agree completely. what is more, by basically taking themselves out of the discussion it makes the task of keeping the far left in line (by the centrists) almost impossible... so as a result reasonable legislation is doubly screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrong Direction Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 If they are taxpaying citizens, then they wouldn't. Some of us are acting as if all illegals are lazy, non-working, and sucking up national resources. This isn't always true. Latinos, regardless of their legal status, tend to be a hard working bunch. You're missing the point. This isn't about stereotypes, it's about actuaries, like it or not. There is no actuary on this planet that would say the bill won't cost substantially more by providing coverage to the people here illegally. The fact is, many of our forefathers were lucky enough to come here when immigration didn't have limits.Really, many illegal immigrants are practicing the "rugged individualism" and "self-interested motivation" that conservatives always preach as positive attributes. They go through trial and tribulations to come to this country, even if their status isn't legal (nor respecting the system). They also came here when they didn't have legal rights to healthcare, social security, welfare and any number of other entitlements. It's not exactly the same, but I don't care to expand here, especially since I'm not against legal immigration. Part of the issue is that illegals are treated as things. Not people, but undesirable things that need to be removed from the country. It is dehumanizing. If you want to debate immigration policy, I'm all for it. However, while stereotyping your political adversaries, please remove me from the stereotypical racist crowd. This thread was about healthcare, and Obama's misleading rhetoric in his address to the nation. The reason he misled is because he needs to keep costs down, and he understands that it's a political hot potato to include illegals. Right or wrong, that's the political calculus right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I think I'm about where I am with this which is completely unsure. For me it's going to come down to the almighty bottom line and I want to start seeing real numbers with real figures. Where are we now? If this passes, where are we then. That's really what it comes down to right? Fixing Medicare/caid, fixing health care in general, the illegal immigrant strain on our infrastructure. Now, if I can see some numbers that indicate Medicare/caid's cost is significantly reduced (most importantly being the futures), the average citizen's health care costs reduced, the strain on the hospitals reduced and an attempt to finally enforce immigration laws (if amnesty is passed) then I'll sit back and play ball. Problem is, I am not seeing anything that tells me this is a solution. And I'm not really seeing a solution from anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Why do you hate capitalism? Am I missing something?? I don't get your point...please enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Nobody can bend a headline like the WT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrong Direction Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Nobody can bend a headline like the WT. Yeah, it's much better to report the political spin than the operational facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yeah, it's much better to report the political spin than the operational facts.Perhaps I missed it. Where is the quote where the President says, "Legalize illegals to get them health care." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Why? Is his aunt sick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Am I missing something?? I don't get your point...please enlighten me You asked for a system where the government regulates (or caps) the costs (and/or profits) that private businesses (insurance companies) can accrue. Capisce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Why? Is his aunt sick? :hysterical: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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