hockeysc23 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 That's only $120B... It won't even cover health care. Yes, agreed but I am hoping also with the fact that they are legal now we can get tax revenue to pay for the healthcare etc. I figured healthcare is going to be a given (I am against it) and so is legalization of illegals so might as well get some $$ off of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrong Direction Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Reality is what it is and the article's title is accurate. Fixed that for ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I am confused about why we don't want to include illegals in health insurance reform. Forcing Illegals into our health care system would help drive down costs since they are typically younger and healthier than our aging legal population. We get them paying into the system and that helps us, instead of the current system where we give them the most expensive care for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeysc23 Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I am confused about why we don't want to include illegals in health insurance reform. Forcing Illegals into our health care system would help drive down costs since they are typically younger and healthier than our aging legal population. We get them paying into the system and that helps us, instead of the current system where we give them the most expensive care for free. How do they pay into the system? They don't pay taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 The problem with obama is that instead of addressing this issues of illegal immigration in a seperate conference, he tied it to healthcare. This isn't a debate about whether to legalize these folks, it's a healthcare debate where costs are a major factor. Wasn't the whole rationalization for the 'you lie!' outburst that the healthcare bill didn't address illegal immigrants who would use emergency rooms and such? Now Obama says, ok the illegal immigration problem needs to be resolved too, and that's ... bad? That's Obama wanting to legalize illegal immigrants? That's Obama spontaneously tying the issues together? 'You lie!' tied the issues together. Why is it wrong for Obama to respond to that accusation? Please, find anywhere in that article where Obama says "lets legalize everyone and cover them!" He doesn't say that. Plain and simple. He doesn't say it. He says the illegal immigration situation needs to be 'resolved.' I could take that to mean he wants to line them all up and shoot them, and then write an article about how wrong that is, and be just as accurate as this Times article. Save the ire for when he actually says something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 He's a lying retard. :hysterical: Rainman brought down a whole casino, and he was a reTARD Obama brought down a whole country, and he was a reTARD They are interchangable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 "pretty much implies"Even you aren't confident the Mooney Times isn't headline is accurate and your choice of language shows it. Wait! what? If you are going to spew your leftist BS, please at least post something that makes some sort of sense. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljs Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I am confused about why we don't want to include illegals in health insurance reform. Forcing Illegals into our health care system would help drive down costs since they are typically younger and healthier than our aging legal population. We get them paying into the system and that helps us, instead of the current system where we give them the most expensive care for free. Have you ever been to the emergency room in an area with a lot of illegal immigrants? Have you visited the schools? our resources are absolutely drained. We have citizens who wait endless hours for assistance, not enough personell to help everyone. We have kids who have classes in temp mobile facilities, terrible over crowding -while resources are poured into ESL (english as second language) classes, all the while our edcuation system is ****ting down the toilet. I'm all for legal immigration- there is a reason for the process. A drop in the bucket each day is one thing- but to dump a lake into that same bucket all at once, and you flood. maybe not the best analogy, but I'm tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrong Direction Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I am confused about why we don't want to include illegals in health insurance reform. Forcing Illegals into our health care system would help drive down costs since they are typically younger and healthier than our aging legal population. We get them paying into the system and that helps us, instead of the current system where we give them the most expensive care for free. The two political reasons (at least) are: 1. They aren't younger or healthier and, as such, even if legalized they'd cause costs to increase. 2. People don't want their tax money going to non-citizens, and they don't want to give citizenship to a bunch of people who broke the law to get here. I'm not making value judgements here, but those are two of the primary reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrong Direction Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Wasn't the whole rationalization for the 'you lie!' outburst that the healthcare bill didn't address illegal immigrants who would use emergency rooms and such? No. It was about more stricht eligibility language that, prior to that outburst, Democrats had refused to add to any of their bills. The right acknowledged that the bill didn't explicitly allow illegal immigrants to join the new system, but they complained that the original language didn't actually do anything to keep them out. The Senate committee caved shortly after Wilson's outburst. Now Obama says, ok the illegal immigration problem needs to be resolved too, and that's ... bad? That's Obama wanting to legalize illegal immigrants? That's Obama spontaneously tying the issues together? 'You lie!' tied the issues together. Why is it wrong for Obama to respond to that accusation? It may be bad, but that's another debate. It's clearly misleading though to say that people here illegally won't be covered under his bill and then to go to a smaller group and say that he wants to provide legal rights to people who are currently here illegally, while also saying that people who are here legally should have access to the system. Please, find anywhere in that article where Obama says "lets legalize everyone and cover them!"He doesn't say that. Plain and simple. He doesn't say it. He says the illegal immigration situation needs to be 'resolved.' I could take that to mean he wants to line them all up and shoot them, and then write an article about how wrong that is, and be just as accurate as this Times article. Save the ire for when he actually says something. You could take it to mean that, but you'd be stupid. Obama supported the Kennedy bill. It was the same one McCain and/or Graham supported, IIRC. Either way, it was a bill that provided a pathway for citizenship and/or legal status for those currently here illegally. He's on the record on this issue. He clearly wants to give them legal rights and that clearly would give them access to our healthcare system. If you fail to acknowledge that, I don't know what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Amnesty is a tricky situation. On the surface it sounds bad, and it sounds as if it rewards illegal entry into the US. I don't know if offering amnesty is a good idea,, it's ripe for abuse, but at the same time, throwing them all back over the border would only make it worse. I don't have health insurance. It's too expensive. And I sure don't like the idea of paying for someone else's who isn't even a citizen, or only becomes a citizen because they frefuse to abide the law. But, this is the process of negotiation. Obama proposes his side, and the right should propose theirs, and then both work to the middle for a reasonable bill most everyone can get behind. But that doesn't happen. The right's SOP these days is to try to kill everything, no matter what it is. Party politics are more important then the actual issues. There is no negotiation. And that sucks. ~Bang Great response, Bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 The two political reasons (at least) are:1. They aren't younger or healthier and, as such, even if legalized they'd cause costs to increase. If they are taxpaying citizens, then they wouldn't. Some of us are acting as if all illegals are lazy, non-working, and sucking up national resources. This isn't always true. Latinos, regardless of their legal status, tend to be a hard working bunch. 2. People don't want their tax money going to non-citizens, and they don't want to give citizenship to a bunch of people who broke the law to get here.I'm not making value judgements here, but those are two of the primary reasons. The fact is, many of our forefathers were lucky enough to come here when immigration didn't have limits. Really, many illegal immigrants are practicing the "rugged individualism" and "self-interested motivation" that conservatives always preach as positive attributes. They go through trial and tribulations to come to this country, even if their status isn't legal (nor respecting the system). Part of the issue is that illegals are treated as things. Not people, but undesirable things that need to be removed from the country. It is dehumanizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I am confused about why we don't want to include illegals in health insurance reform. Forcing Illegals into our health care system would help drive down costs since they are typically younger and healthier than our aging legal population. We get them paying into the system and that helps us, instead of the current system where we give them the most expensive care for free. Exactly. We don't want people unnecessarily using hospital resources -- that is part of the reason for a universal health care system. We want people to be insured, healthy, and energetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wysknz1 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 those are his votes for the next election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 So I guess Wilson was right when he yelled "liar" at the president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostyj Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 those are his votes for the next election Suprised this wasn't brought up earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Have you ever been to the emergency room in an area with a lot of illegal immigrants? Have you visited the schools? our resources are absolutely drained. We have citizens who wait endless hours for assistance, not enough personell to help everyone. We have kids who have classes in temp mobile facilities, terrible over crowding -while resources are poured into ESL (english as second language) classes, all the while our edcuation system is ****ting down the toilet. I'm all for legal immigration- there is a reason for the process. A drop in the bucket each day is one thing- but to dump a lake into that same bucket all at once, and you flood. maybe not the best analogy, but I'm tired. I think you are missing the point. They are getting services right now. You admit this. I admit this. We agree. Illegals are getting free services and this is a bad thing. Total agreement. I propose that we include the illegal immigrants in the mandate and force them to pay into the system, thereby helping to cover their costs. Why are you against people paying for their own health care? (ok, that last point was a little over dramatic, but seriously, this is the question here, we both agree they already get free health care, the only question that remains is whether we want to ask them to pay for it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 National ID cardStrict enforcement against business' that hire ILLegals then, Amnesty for all those here without any felony convictions. Open up immigration by a million or so. It shouldnt be this hard.. You can't piss off your (illegal) immigrant constituents with anything so sensible and above board like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Exactly. We don't want people unnecessarily using hospital resources -- that is part of the reason for a universal health care system. We want people to be insured, healthy, and energetic. You mean the proposed system that no one can actually tell you how we're going to pay for? Sure slap on another several million people. Couldn't hurt, right? I think the people that are left of center on this board still don't comprehend that Universal Heathcare is impossible in this country without everyone paying 50% or more of their gross income in taxes vis-a-vis what the Euro do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goaldeje Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Have you ever been to the emergency room in an area with a lot of illegal immigrants? Have you visited the schools? our resources are absolutely drained. We have citizens who wait endless hours for assistance, not enough personell to help everyone. We have kids who have classes in temp mobile facilities, terrible over crowding -while resources are poured into ESL (english as second language) classes, all the while our edcuation system is ****ting down the toilet. I'm all for legal immigration- there is a reason for the process. A drop in the bucket each day is one thing- but to dump a lake into that same bucket all at once, and you flood. maybe not the best analogy, but I'm tired. As has been said, they are already receiving educational and health benefits. In fact, their health care costs more, because generally they will wait until there is an emergency before they visit a doctor/hospital because they have no insurance. If we legalize them, they pay taxes into the system, and with healthcare reform, we can require them (and others) to practice more preventative medicine, which will save us more money in the long run. I admit that I have qualms about amnesty, though as Henry has pointed out, nowhere has Obama promised that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 I don't think many of you have looked at the economic studies of it. Low income workers are a tax burden and now you wish to subsidize 12 million+ more than we already do? The notion of preventative care saving money is rather faulty as well by most studies...but I AM curious how far they are gonna go with that REQUIRE Goaldeje. More fines?...Deny coverage?...Give them financial incentives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 If illegals are given amnesty, American citizens should be allowed to defend our border in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goaldeje Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I don't think many of you have looked at the economic studies of it.Low income workers are a tax burden and now you wish to subsidize 12 million+ more than we already do? The notion of preventative care saving money is rather faulty as well by most studies...but I AM curious how far they are gonna go with that REQUIRE Goaldeje. More fines?...Deny coverage?...Give them financial incentives? I am not an economist by any stretch, and admittedly, have not looked at the economic studies you mention. However, to my simple mind it seems that if we were receiving SOME tax money from the illegals, that would be more than the ZERO money we currently receive from them, and would help offset the care we are already giving them through emergency care and so on. I may be thinking about it the wrong way, and would be more than happy to have it explained to me. I have to say that as someone who has voted conservative ever since voting age, I get very tired of hearing the right bash Obama over health care without offering any substantive alternative. Get tiring, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Sorry,I'm grouchy today They will use the health system more if insured(thus more costs) as well as qualify for subsidies since many are low income. There are no easy answers...either some do w/o,or we pay for it and cut options to control costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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