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Is The Shotgun Overrated With Zorn and His WCO???


zCommander

Which TWO tv catchphrases are the best? (only pick two)  

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  1. 1. Which TWO tv catchphrases are the best? (only pick two)

    • “Yabba dabba do!!” - The Flinstones
    • “You hear that, Elizabeth?...I'm comin' to join you, honey!” - Sanford And Son
    • “Space...the final frontier.” - Star Trek
    • “Oh my God! They Killed Kenny!” - South Park
    • “Up your nose with a rubber hose!” - Welcome Back, Kotter


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I ended up catching the last drive of the Pats game last night and I started counting how many times Brady threw from the shotgun. It was 7 times to get the TD and then another for the 2 point conversion. And not a single snap was taken from the center in this series.

JC last year after the Giants game said he is more comfortable in the shotgun as it allows him to see defenders over the linemen heads.

My question is why is Zorn not playing to his QB's strength???

We keep on saying how good Brady is but maybe because the coaches there know how to play him correctly.

If you recorded the game on Sunday can someone please go back and see how many times did JC played from the shotgun position up to the hurry up mode and how many times in the hurry up offense. Thanks!

Thoughts?

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Preaching to the choir...I think we should at least consider going to a spread offense for a while to get Campbell and the WRs into a rhythm. I don't think we have to abandon a traditional set...but a couple drives per game it would be nice to go up-tempo and give the defense something to think about with 4-WRs and a shotgun formation.

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I think we should run it often, and not just for the pass. Once we run a few plays in a row of a spread formation the D should be putting some xtra Dbs on the field, thats when you run out of the formation as well

well, apparently someone else gets it.

no one is saying abandon the run, but when it isn't working do something else that is working (shotgun) and that will in turn open up the run.

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Plus NE looked like Florida, Hawaii or Tex Tec when they lined up. They spread the field. Plus they go empty set a lot. There is a reason why Belicheck is talking to Meyers a lot HMMM, wonder what there talking about? Your points about the shotgun have been posted a lot this year and last year. But know one responders to it.:doh: JC does look better in the shotgun, I hope JZ gets a clue and makes this change, The WCO is JZ Dogma he must let it go. JZ needs to make some type of adjustments to help our O. This would be a first step, Put JC in the shotgun and let her rip.

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I agree that we need more plays from Shotgun. We need to spread the opposing defense out so they can't just crowd around the LOS and but 8 and 9 in the box. If Campbell feels comfortable back there, why not use it more?

While I agree, I think in practice this is hard to do until our oline proves to be capable of sustaining blocks in pass pro. So far this year they have done a decent job if they continue I would not be surprised to see some more spread formations.

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our idiot coach says that you can't run out of the shotgun; which is bogus..plenty of teams do it.....I'm not saying the shotgun should be our base, but there's no reason why we can't mix it in on first and/or 2nd down from time to time.....we do it well at the end of half/game...do it more often.

what we're doing now is not working...17 games should teach you that.

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We should run out of the shotgun. And although this may not be popular, I think Betts should be next to him on most of those snaps. That way we can run draws or we can dump it off to him in the flat. That's his strength, it's Campbell's strength and it's the best way in my estimation to get this offense rolling. I know people aren't going to like the Betts thing but Portis isn't a receiving back and he doesn't go out to catch balls anyways, he stays in to block. Portis is the back that should be used on third downs. We should be passing it and at least getting manageable 3rd downs.

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While I agree, I think in practice this is hard to do until our oline proves to be capable of sustaining blocks in pass pro. So far this year they have done a decent job if they continue I would not be surprised to see some more spread formations.

It would give the OL a little more time because JC would be farther back and be able to read defenses easier.

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Here is the article from last year but still applies to JC this year as well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/06/AR2008090602574.html

Some interesting quotes:

Campbell said: "The shotgun gives me the chance to do some different things than when you're under center. Right now, we're all still learning this new offense and adjusting to it, so anything that can help us get to where we want to be, I'm all for it."

"I just felt more confident. The receivers can see me better and I can see them better. Sometimes, trying to see the receivers while you're looking through the linemen, you just can't see 'em."

When a tall QB makes the comment above one has to wonder why Zorn likes to play mostly from center.

If you are down 14 points with 8 minutes left in the game it is time to abandon the run somewhat and go shotgun.

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our idiot coach says that you can't run out of the shotgun; which is bogus..plenty of teams do it.....I'm not saying the shotgun should be our base, but there's no reason why we can't mix it in on first and/or 2nd down from time to time.....we do it well at the end of half/game...do it more often.

what we're doing now is not working...17 games should teach you that.

There is a reason you cant mix the shotgun with our base...

West coast offense is a system not a play. Its a system for the whole organization. we know that. in this "system" you try not to run plays you do not practice. Al Saunders didnt care, but Jim Zorn does. He stays away from things we didnt practice.

So to implement the shotgun, we need to practice it more, but that isnt going to happen because there are only sooo many snaps you can practice with the first team offense. He is not about to practice the shotgun on the OFFCHANCE his real offense doesnt work.

call it confidence, call it gameplanning for success and not failure, call it bad contingency planning. whatever. I dont disagree or agree that the shotgun is a good or bad idea. just pointing out a reason they dont run it in games.

PS JC isnt tom brady, and santana isnt randy moss. If they were, then they would say, screw it, im throwing all damn day. or maybe im wrong.

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The game has evolved so much, with faster players, bigger players, and intense scouting of other teams.

It makes almost NO sense to spend more than 30% of the time under center. Having the quarterback receive the ball already in throwing position is INHERENTLY better than having him waste 3-7 steps where CANNOT throw(because he is dropping) thus forcing linemen to work HARDER. Thats wasted time, and in the NFL EVERY split second counts.

Watching Brady I was reminded of something Oldfan said in another thread, that the Pats employ WCO principles from a shotgun spread set. You know what its TRUE. They have basically moved the quarterback into a ready to throw position, given him 4-5 options per play, made his reads quick, and have STRETCHED the field both HORIZONTAL & VERTICAL. They pass with the intent of YAC (see Wes Welker), and use their TE's in place of the big reciever on slanting, incut routes.

Moss & Galloway(stallworth before him) are used to stretch the field vertically, thus removing the safety from favoring anything other than deep coverage. This enhancement ALLOWS the Pats to then mate their Passing game with the Erhardt/Perkins 3 yards and a cloud of dust running game.

Now this brings it full circle to the Redskins. ALL of Zorn's west coast principles can be employed and actually employed to GREATER effectiveness IF the QB was placed in a ready to throw position. This eliminates an extra 1-2 seconds of Jason dropping back, to which he can now use to see the field and throw ON-TIME & in Rhythm.

One of the big knocks people throw out at Jason is his slow decision making. Well a coach can help that by a) Brain surgery and connecting synapses B) reducing the number of decisions he has to make c) positioning him to have the MAXIMUM time to decide.

I think a) is out of the question, Zorn has gone with B) which is why you'll see Jason only "allowed" to make 1-2 reads, hence the same 3 people receive the ball. When Zorn has chosen c) what do you know Jason looks more than competent at QB.

Someone will say what about the running game? I say look at how the Pats run, they wheel out 2TEs sometimes, 6 linemen sometimes, and run draws from the shotgun sometime. Thats why its still useful to run under center about 30% of the time, because that now forces the D to say "hey, they're running", and THERE is where we can get Moss isolated in playaction deep.

So after this LONG winded rambling thesis, bottom line if Zorn allows himself to adapt to what it takes to win in this league (shotgun) you will see BETTER results.

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Great post Silky!

Also we might have a problem with Portis needing his touches so the 30% now becomes close to 50%.

I got this from wiki: Five step and even 7 step dropbacks are now implemented in modern day WCO's because defensive speed has increased since the 80's. Some modern WCO's have even used shotgun formations (e.g. Green Bay)

Sounds like to me Zorn hasn't learned the speed of the current NFL players. He might still be stuck back in the 80's :doh:

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