Existential Question: Why do we run the west coast offense?

[SoCalSkins]

I think Dan and Vinny wanted to be sure to see what they had in Campbell. If it didn't work out, they wanted a system in place where a new QB acquired from another team would have a small learning curve given the popularity of the WCO.

[PeterMP]

They assumed nothing. They had nothing to lose by trying to remodel Jason. Furthermore, the work Zorn has done has been successful. Physically, he can now succeed. His limitations appear to be mental.

Physically, he's better, but with the fumble the other day beyond not stepping up he is holding the ball WAY to low and away from his body.

I'm not sure he can REALLY be successful still.

To answer the question, realistically Zorn should have been allowed to blow the team up and start over when he was hired. You essentially see a new coach being brought in from the outside being forced to keep the same personal.

A lot of people have issues w/ Zorn. I actually am not sure if we have enough to say anything about him as a HC or OC. He's clearly coaching w/ one hand behind his back in terms of players that can execute his scheme as he'd ideally run it.

I will say as a QB coach, I think what he has done in terms of fixing Campbell have been remarkable. You look at the difference between Campbell now and when he was drafted, and compare him to let's say a Leftwich who never improved his mechanics, and it is remarkable.

[WorldBFree76]

I think Dan and Vinny wanted to be sure to see what they had in Campbell. If it didn't work out, they wanted a system in place where a new QB acquired from another team would have a small learning curve given the popularity of the WCO.

This is assuming, of course, that they keep Zorn. But looking at the current regime's trend, Zorn may be gone with Campbell.

[Justsomeguy]

While I initially did not want to change to a WCO, I am content on it right now. It provides a mismatch against a few of the teams in our division such as the giants and cowboys who like to bring a lot of pressure. 3 step drops are a great response to blitzes.

[SoCalSkins]

This is assuming, of course, that they keep Zorn. But looking at the current regime's trend, Zorn may be gone with Campbell.

I doubt they keep Zorn. Replacing Zorn would permit less changes by bringing in another WCO head coach or coordinator. It gives you more options for the same reason as replacing the QB given the number of teams that run the WCO.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If we had gotten Cutler, I would say that the stars would have aligned perfectly for us to bring in Shanahan next year with the title of Coach/GM/Consul/Princeps/Living God.

If Campbell goes after this year, the cupboard will be completely bare at QB. I can't believe that Shanahan or Cowher or any big name would come here with a QB depth chart of 1. Todd Collins 2. Injured Colt Brennan 3. Vinny Cerrato.

[eljeasel]

The Redskins run a WCO?

[Going Commando]

Why do you think Campbell isn't suited for it? And Portis? I actually think he is an excellent fit in the scheme because of his pass-protection and ability to cut to the edges. He's not the best route runner but he is adequate. The only weakness is that he lacks concentration at times and drops passes but nearly every back in the league struggles in some area of the position so we aren't likely to find better. I can think of two, maybe three backs (Thomlinson, Forte, and Moreno) who have a better all around skill set than Portis and Thomlinson isn't nearly as good at protection as Portis. Maybe Jones-Drew is on that list too but I don't like his size. Also, Cooley is a good fit for the scheme too.

Yes Davis and Kelly are good fits for the offense and that's why we drafted them but so are Randle El and Thomas (who is supposed to be our money-maker in this scheme). The fact that we drafted them and have them on board shows that we are committing to the new and very different scheme with personnel changes.

Our offensive line is barely suited to play in any offense at this point and it's going to need a complete overhaul from LT to right here in the next few years. Heyer is the only promising young guy on the entire roster for god's sake and he still struggles a lot. The whole positional group is broken. Even if we were running a power running scheme like old Gibbs offenses, do you think they'd be able to protect for any sort of vertical passing game?

The trouble isn't the scheme, any drastically different scheme takes time to install. The trouble is our personnel and the fact that guys like Thomas and Kelly havent been able to do crap and our offensive line is well below the league average in terms of its ability to protect even a short-rhythm based passing offense. You have to wait for the guys from the old regime to either adjust or get phased out for younger pieces that fit better.

[PeterMP]

Why do you think Campbell isn't suited for it? And Portis? I actually think he is an excellent fit in the scheme because of his pass-protection and ability to cut to the edges. He's not the best route runner but he is adequate. The only weakness is that he lacks concentration at times and drops passes but nearly every back in the league struggles in some area of the position so we aren't likely to find better. I can think of two, maybe three backs (Thomlinson, Forte, and Moreno) who have a better all around skill set than Portis and Thomlinson isn't nearly as good at protection as Portis. Maybe Jones-Drew is on that list too but I don't like his size. Also, Cooley is a good fit for the scheme too.

Realistically, it is Portis' pass blocking that makes him a bad WCO back. He's actually TOO good at it.

I think this is one of the issues that he had with Zorn last year. Portis doesn't/can't/won't execute a simple chip block, and then leak out for a pass.

Not questioning his TOTAL skill set, but for example, Westbrook is a much better WCO back than Portis.

[Oldfan]

Physically, he's better, but with the fumble the other day beyond not stepping up he is holding the ball WAY to low and away from his body.

I didn't notice that it was too low. It appeared to be just below the shoulder and pretty much where most QBs have it when its ****ed. But, I only saw one shot in slow mo.

I will say as a QB coach, I think what he has done in terms of fixing Campbell have been remarkable. You look at the difference between Campbell now and when he was drafted, and compare him to let's say a Leftwich who never improved his mechanics, and it is remarkable.

Agreed. I'm sure most fans don't realize how remarkable the Campbell remodeling project was.

I'm not nearly as impressed with Z as a game day coach as I am with his expertise with QBs

[Oldfan]

The trouble isn't the scheme, any drastically different scheme takes time to install. The trouble is our personnel and the fact that guys like Thomas and Kelly havent been able to do crap and our offensive line is well below the league average in terms of its ability to protect even a short-rhythm based passing offense. You have to wait for the guys from the old regime to either adjust or get phased out for younger pieces that fit better.

I agree the problem is not with the scheme, but I disagree that the major problem is with the players. We have the personnel to be a dominant defense and a proficient offense. I think Blache and Zorn were out-coached by Tom Coughlin's staff.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Realistically, it is Portis' pass blocking that makes him a bad WCO back. He's actually TOO good at it.

I think this is one of the issues that he had with Zorn last year. Portis doesn't/can't/won't execute a simple chip block, and then leak out for a pass.

You know, I never thought of it that way, but it's an interesting point. And I think the same is true for Sellers. Both of them, by instinct, become offensive guards when blocking. But by doing that, it cuts down the number of receiving options we have.

What's funny to me is how little ball distribution we get out of our offense.

ARE and Cooley each had 7 catches yesterday. Moss had 2 for 6 yards. Betts, Portis, and Kelly had one each (and Betts was on a completely broken play).

The great WCO teams always have a pretty even distribution of receptions among a number of pass catchers. And the backs always catch the ball.

[Dirk Diggler]

The trouble isn't the scheme, any drastically different scheme takes time to install. The trouble is our personnel and the fact that guys like Thomas and Kelly havent been able to do crap and our offensive line is well below the league average in terms of its ability to protect even a short-rhythm based passing offense. You have to wait for the guys from the old regime to either adjust or get phased out for younger pieces that fit better.

Considering the place (away), and opponent (Giants pass rush) I think the offensive line drew about the toughest assignment you could possibly draw. And I think they played pretty well. That play against Tampa at home would garner a C-, but on the road against the Giants I give us a B+.

[addicted]

So...why are we still trying to pound this square peg of a team into this round hole of an offense - which appears to have become the schedme after being picked out of a hat by Daniel Snyder.

Why are we doing what we do?

The problem facing this team start at the very top and work itself on down and it all comes down to politics.

Question: Why is Jason our starting QB?

Answer: 2 part answer. First part is the investment the team put into him. The team wants to make sure that the guy who they paid a ton for is given a million opportunities. Playing the best player is not in the teams interest. Second part, because all attempts to trade this average player failed.

Question: Why is Clinton Portis our starting RB?

Answer: First we paid too much for him and are forcing the game on him to either do one of two things, injure him so we can dump him or see him produce. Can't produce if your on the bench. Second reason is Clinton actually believes he is the leader on offense. He isn't taking a back seat to anyone.

Question: Why haven't we tried to use any of the rookie WR's and get them more involved?

Politics. We are paying a ton of money for other players on the roster. Since Danny doesn't want to admit he made a stupid investment guys like Randle El will always get more looks then Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly.

Our problem is politics. Other teams value performance over what someone's currently getting paid and play the players who are performing. We care more about the dollars and that dictates what we do. We went to the West Coast Offense because after that vanilla crappy offense Gibbs displayed it drew interest and sounded exciting, and exciting to Snyder means more money. He doesn't care about winning, he cares about politics. Politics rule the day in Washington and until we get back to having an owner like Jack Kent Cooke who put winning above everything else we will never be a Superbowl winning franchise again. Winning doesn't rule the day in Redskins nation.

[PeterMP]

You know' date=' I never thought of it that way, but it's an interesting point. And I think the same is true for Sellers. Both of them, by instinct, become offensive guards when blocking. But by doing that, it cuts down the number of receiving options we have.

What's funny to me is how little ball distribution we get out of our offense.

ARE and Cooley each had 7 catches yesterday. Moss had 2 for 6 yards. Betts, Portis, and Kelly had one each (and Betts was on a completely broken play).

The great WCO teams always have a pretty even distribution of receptions among a number of pass catchers. And the backs always catch the ball.[/quote']

You look at the play to Betts on the fumble. I pretty much guarantee that Portis doesn't make that play. He's already either fully engaged w/ a blocker or looking for somebody to hit.

This isn't meant as a knock on Portis, but he was perfect for Gibbs' max protect schemes. He isn't ideal of a case where you want your RB to sort of block and then turn around and catch a pass.

One of Portis' complaints last year was that Zorn gave confusing instructions. Some times it was go out and others it was block. I bet Zorn expected the backs to show some decision making based on the play and circumstances and in many cases it was do BOTH (block and then leak out) vs. w/ Gibbs it was pretty much block or go out based solely on the play called.

[PeterMP]

I didn't notice that it was too low. It appeared to be just below the shoulder and pretty much where most QBs have it when its ****ed. But, I only saw one shot in slow mo.

Agreed. I'm sure most fans don't realize how remarkable the Campbell remodeling project was.

I'm not nearly as impressed with Z as a game day coach as I am with his expertise with QBs

I had to go back and look. He still has a little bit of a hitch where he brings the ball back and down to about hip level on a lot of throws, including that one.

[McD5]

In short, the reason we have a WCO is Jason Garrett.

I agree with this.

[SkinsFTW]

It was a good decision.

The Walsh-WCO philosophy, to try to achieve ball control with the pass as the primary weapon makes sense in today's NFL. Matt Bowen called the Patriots scheme a "WCO out of a shotgun."

What scheme do you think makes more sense?

It makes sense if they are willing to rebuild a WCO team. They aren't, it's win now, always. You saw it with trading the pick for Taylor and signing Haynesworth and Hall to dumb contracts.

Then after spending 2-3 drafts on WCO players we will go back to smash mouth with somebody like Cowher.

It's a Fantasy Football team for Snyder and Vinny is his puppet.

[SkinsFTW]

lol, youre probably right, but think of all the 4th quarter comebacks? that was gibbs' biggest problem was 4th quarter chokes. ben solved that problem, we'd have won double digit games every year! whether gibbs survived is another story.

He would have never saw the field.

He wouldn't even let Ramsey play after he obviously outplayed Brunell. Why? He made more questionable decisions with the football, regardless of the fact that they led to success more often than not.

Ramsey wasn't 10% the risk taker Roethlisberger is and a guy like Brunell took 0 risks. Old Noodle Arm hit more Cameramen with balls than Wide Receivers, lol.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I think Portis will lobby Vinny and Danny to overpay for Shanny at the end of the season.

[Evilskinzfan47]

im sorry.is this really the west coast offense????I ask because ive seen "west coast offense" teams STRETCH the D and the field.Do ya think Jerry Rice would be the player we was in OUR offense?What we play is called,dink,dunk,punt.The personnel is not here.Dont have the players or the coaches.We are a lost team without an identity.And the sad thing is is that we're getting ready to rebuild yet again.New qb and a new head coach next year.New schemes....We are ALWAYS 5 years away from being competitive.

Life of a skins fan i guess.:doh:

[greenmile]

I thought the reason was that it was the system that Campbell showed some success in during college.

Brown and Williams didn't help at all.

Wow, intense sig pic.

[prufRock]

We hired a coach whose only experience is in that offense. So, the bigger question should be "Why did we hire Jim Zorn?"

It goes with my thoughts from last night and today...why don't we figure out what we want to be as an organization (at a level higher than head coach) and hire coaches and players who fit that mold. Then, even if you have to replace coaches and players periodically, you aren't constantly fitting square pegs into round holes.

Great point, and while most teams probably change philosophies when the change coaches, I think what you see with the Redskins is a dysfunctional organization without an over-arching, congruent plan for building the team. Even if you allow for the fact that the new head coach should be able to bring his system in, then why is the bulk of the roster still built for running the football?

Zorn should have made a judgment about Campbell when he first got to D.C. and at the very least, after the end of last season, and if he didn't like him, gotten rid of hi and found the QB he wanted. Evidently, he likes Campbell, but that doesn't matter because Snyder clearly doesn't, so they go into the season with a lame-duck QB situation and virtually no margin for error for either Campbell or Zorn.

[Wyvern]

To answer the question -- I think the Skins FO wanted a more "explosive" offense rather than the slow-grinding, power-running game that Gibbs was developing.

That's why you saw Al Saunders brought in, and that's why we looked for a OC who could run a WCO.

High-scoring offenses make it easier to market the team, and bring in more of the fans into the stadium. It also is good for getting more toppings on your pizza!

[cphil006]

Good points.

Our QB has a slow release.