Existential Question: Why do we run the west coast offense?

[ttr77]

Danny is obsessed with Jerry Jones.

When Danny builds his new stadium, I hear the Jumbotron is actually going to be ON the field.

[ntotoro]

Because we made a huge mistake and hired a guy who wasn't ready for prime time to be our head coach: Zorn, when what we should have done was keep some continuity and hire Williams. The reason we didn't hire Williams is because his first order of business would probably have been to fire Cerrato on the spot.

Could have ended the thread right after this post.

Gregg wouldn't have been able to fire Bugeyes, however he probably would have put the kibosh on Campbell. If Pretzel Boy was really worried about continuity, he wouldn't have fired Saunders and Williams in the first place.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It's front office 101 isn't it? Frustrating to see a team with so much history and personality shifting styles with the wind. Chicago hasn't ripped off a bunch of superbowl wins but they at least a team that's reflective of their city and history.

I'm starting to see that...yes!

Pittsburgh, Chicago, New York, etc. always gravitate back to their roots. They play a physical brand of football. Dallas always seems to gravitate back to a glitzier, finesse brand (successfully...that's actually not a knock on them).

Like you described, we twist in the wind and seem to be chasing an identity.

[skins4eva]

In short, the reason we have a WCO is Jason Garrett.

I completely buy this, by the way.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Could have ended the thread right after this post.

Gregg wouldn't have been able to fire Bugeyes, however he probably would have put the kibosh on Campbell. If Pretzel Boy was really worried about continuity, he wouldn't have fired Saunders and Williams in the first place.

Actually, if all we were going to do is try to keep part of Joe's offense, I'm thinking we'd have been better off going into 2008 with:

Williams as head coach

Olivadotti as defensive coordinator (Williams would obviously have been involved here)

Saunders as offensive coordinator

Collins as QB

I was hoping we'd have distanced ourselves from Joe's philosophies by year 2 of Zorn, but we still run a lot of those same running plays.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

big ben would have been perfect for gibbs offense.

crazy that we passed on him to get taylor (obviously im not saying we should have, just saying imagine how that would have been).

Oh, I think Ben would have aged Joe 50 years.

Can you imagine Joe Gibbs watching that 19-yard sack Ben took on Monday? Granted, there are the 18 fourth quarter comebacks that he has led, but Gibbs would have had a stroke the first time Ben took a big sack or made a dumb interception while trying to keep a play alive.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In short, the reason we have a WCO is Jason Garrett.

That theory is completely speculative, possibly libelous, and utterly unfounded.

I also give it a 38 percent chance of being true.

[Oldfan]

It was a good decision.

The Walsh-WCO philosophy, to try to achieve ball control with the pass as the primary weapon makes sense in today's NFL. Matt Bowen called the Patriots scheme a "WCO out of a shotgun."

What scheme do you think makes more sense?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Oh' date=' I think Ben would have aged Joe 50 years.

Can you imagine Joe Gibbs watching that 19-yard sack Ben took on Monday? Granted, there are the 18 fourth quarter comebacks that he has led, but Gibbs would have had a stroke the first time Ben took a big sack or made a dumb interception while trying to keep a play alive.[/quote']

lol, youre probably right, but think of all the 4th quarter comebacks? that was gibbs' biggest problem was 4th quarter chokes. ben solved that problem, we'd have won double digit games every year! whether gibbs survived is another story.

[bubba9497]

Existential Question: Why wouldn't we run the west coast offense?

our coach learned his craft under Holgrehm, a WCO master who learned it from the creator Bill Walsh

[MattFancy]

Zorn's play calling reminds me of a bad Madden player. He just does the same 4 or 5 plays over and over again hoping that they have to work sooner or later.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It was a good decision.

The Walsh-WCO philosophy, to try to achieve ball control with the pass as the primary weapon makes sense in today's NFL. Matt Bowen called the Patriots scheme a "WCO out of a shotgun."

What scheme do you think makes more sense?

Oldfan,

Every time this comes up, you justify the WCO by defining it. I know what the WCO is. It's won a lot of Super Bowls. In the right hands, it's a great offense. Joe Montana and Steve Young are in the Hall of Fame because of it. Brett Favre is Brett Favre because of it. Mike Holmgren and Andy Reid can eat the never-ending pasta bowl at Olive Garden every night because of it.

We don't have the personnel to run it properly.

What should we run? I dunno. Maybe the Steelers' offense from 1974.

Actually, do you know who would be an awesome OC for the personnell that we have?

Wait for it.

Wait for it.

Still waiting?

You are dying aren't you?

Norv Turner.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Existential Question: Why wouldn't we run the west coast offense?

our coach learned his craft under Holgrehm, a WCO master who learned it from the creator Bill Walsh

And our QB is Jason Campbell, who is not Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre or Matt Hasslebeck.

And Clinton Portis ain't Roger Craig or Ricky Watters.

And Santana Moss ain't Jerry Rice.

Here is a question, Bubba.....

Why are we the only WCO team in history that NEVER throws to a RB?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Existential Question: Why wouldn't we run the west coast offense?

our coach learned his craft under Holgrehm, a WCO master who learned it from the creator Bill Walsh

By the way, this is exactly why the Old Republic fell. Anakin Skywalker was taught by Obi-Wan who was taught by Liam Neeson who was taught by Yoda. Somehwere along the way, you lose something in translation.

/I'll show myself out.

[Mordac]

The answer is so blindingly obvious to anyone who knows Danny Snyder.

Jerry Jones was getting pub for picking up boy genius Jason Garrett from QB coach to OC. Garrett then set out an offense that broke every Cowboys single season record. Garrett was a hot coaching prospect, but Jones locked him in to be the coach-in-waiting.

Danny is obsessed with Jerry Jones. So Danny wanted to find some former QB, current QB coach to be his OC. So he looked around, and he had to fall on Zorn. So he promoted to OC even when Seattle did not want to do so.

Danny then botched the coaching search, and he thought to himself, "I'll one up Jerry and go ahead and make mine the coach right now!"

Of course, Danny is a moron. And he didn't realize the difference between a YOUNG, fresh, and hot coaching prospect like Garrett and an OLD, stale, lifetime position coach.

So he bought in Zorn as OC, not because he liked the WCO particularly, but because he was trying to copycat Jones. The WCO if anything just represented marketing point secondary to Zorn. And then he made him the head coach when any respectable person laughed at him.

That's why we have a WCO.

All around, just further proof of the moronic way Danny runs this team.

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

and "ouch."

[Oldfan]

Oldfan' date=' Every time this comes up, you justify the WCO by defining it. I know what the WCO is.[/quote']

Then you need to be more specific when you ask the question. Like this -- "We don't have the personnel to run it properly."

When the decision was made to go WCO, we didn't have the personnel to run anyone's scheme effectively. We drafted three receivers in 2008 who fit. It was a better fit for an O line that couldn't pass protect on a lot of seven-step drops.

Actually, do you know who would be an awesome OC for the personnell that we have? ...Norv Turner.

Norv is probably going to be the last man standing. When he's done, you won't see the Coryell again. It requires outstanding personnel to be consistently effective.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Then you need to be more specific when you ask the question. Like this -- "We don't have the personnel to run it properly."

Correct me if I am wrong, but that is not a question.

Anyway, if we were going to keep Clinton at RB and Jason at QB, it was pretty obvious that the WCO was not the direction to go in.

[Dirk Diggler]

Ultimately, this cluster**** of an offense falls on 3 people: Zorn, Cerrato, and Snyder. These clowns all share in the blame to varying degrees.

Ever since the 1980s, the 2 most important people in any football organization are the QB and head coach. They are married like no other coach and player in any sport. You can debate who is more important until you are blue in the face but you can't debate that the key to enduring NFL success is to have a nice pair of "these."

Now the blunder that a lot of coaches make is taking a HC job predicated on the promise that you will work with the current QB. For every Tony Dungy who lucks into taking a job with a no brainer-HOF QB under center like Peyton Manning, there are 50 jobs where you are inheriting Chris Weinke. One of the first things you see any new HC do is draft/sign a free agent/trade for what his vision of a QB should be. Different systems require different players and no potential head coach candidate who has any options would commit to a QB he isn't 100% sure about.

Cerrato/Snyder felt that they had a franchise QB and basically told Zorn that you can have the job but Campbell is your QB. Now either Zorn had so much hubris that he believed his system could make the QB or he believed that this was his only chance at a HC position and he had to jump at the opportunity. If it was the latter, beef up everything else around a mediocre QB who is ill fit for your offense and hope for the best. Not the stuff that inspires a fan base but the truth rarely is that inspiring.

You know it's ugly when the only guys who would take your job are Jim Zorn and Jim Fassel (he of the UFL). Why do you think Spagnolu said no? Why do you think Gregg Williams was passed over? GW (intelligently) wouldn't take a job where he had one hand tied behind his back because he knew Campbell didn't have it. Only a fool would commit to Campbell site unseen. That fool is now our HC.

[Dirk Diggler]

Anyway' date=' if we were going to keep Clinton at RB and Jason at QB, it was pretty obvious that the WCO was not the direction to go in.[/quote']

Clinton can be a productive RB in any offense, I think he's proven that over his 8 year career. He's an average receiver and isn't going to catch a pass 20 yards down the field like Marshall Faulk or LT but he can do everything else well.

Campbell's skill set is completely ill-suited for the WCO which is why I almost passed out when I heard Zorn say JC was his guy site unseen. It makes me wonder if we employ any scouts at Redskin Park.

I SCREAMED to hire Floyd Reese (as our GM) when Gibbs walked. But that would have made too much sense and now he's a consultant for Bill Belicheck. But what does Belicheck know about football...

[Oldfan]

Correct me if I am wrong' date=' but that is not a question.[/quote']

You're right. Making it a more specific question would have challenged you to put two thoughts together. E.g. " Why do we run the west coast offense when we didn't have the personnel for it?

Anyway, if we were going to keep Clinton at RB and Jason at QB, it was pretty obvious that the WCO was not the direction to go in.

How was it obvious? Portis and Campbell were selected for the Gibbs/Coryell which didn't work -- and we had a degrading offensive line which couldn't pass protect for seven-step drops.

The Walsh-WCO philosophy is sound in today's game. I have a hunch that the Shotgun Spread will continue to gain ground, but right now, a combination of the two seems like the best approach.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You're right. Making it a more specific question would have challenged you to put two thoughts together. E.g. " Why do we run the west coast offense when we didn't have the personnel for it?

How was it obvious? Portis and Campbell were selected for the Gibbs/Coryell which didn't work -- and we had a degrading offensive line which couldn't pass protect for seven-step drops.

The Walsh-WCO philosophy is sound in today's game. I have a hunch that the Shotgun Spread will continue to gain ground, but right now, a combination of the two seems like the best approach.

Why was it obvious?

Because the only ground game that Portis wants to run is the Denver, zone-blocking, one-cut game.

In fact, we still use a variation of that ground game and have stuck it on the WCO like some sort ugly bumper sticked on a Mercedes.

And the WCO requires a quick thinking QB with a quick release.

JC is neither quick thinking nor in posession of a quick release - see the fumble return for a TD yesterday.

[Oldfan]

Campbell's skill set is completely ill-suited for the WCO which is why I almost passed out when I heard Zorn say JC was his guy site unseen. It makes me wonder if we employ any scouts at Redskin Park.

Dan and Vinny made a good decision when they brought Zorn in to remodel Jason's mechanics for the WCO. They had no choice. Gibbs selected him for his Coryell which is now pretty much obsolete in the NFL.

Zorn has given Campbell a chance to succeed by making him much quicker in every phase of the physical game, but he couldn't remodel Jason's brain. He made some really bad decisions in the Giants game.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Dan and Vinny made a good decision when they brought Zorn in to remodel Jason's mechanics for the WCO. They had no choice. Gibbs selected him for his Coryell which is now pretty much obsolete in the NFL.

Zorn has given Campbell a chance to succeed by making him much quiaker in every phase of the physical game, but he couldn't remodel Jason's brain. He made some really bad decisions in the Giants game.

Why did they assume that Jason could be remodeled into Matt Hasslebeck?

Everytime a coach starts to rebuild the mechanics of someone who has been a starter for a few years, it's always risky.

[Oldfan]

Because the only ground game that Portis wants to run is the Denver' date=' zone-blocking, one-cut game.[/quote']

Zone-blocking is compatible with the Walsh WCO.

And the WCO requires a quick thinking QB with a quick release.

In today's NFL, with defenses pressuring, quickness physically and mentally is an asset for a QB regardless of the scheme.

[Oldfan]

Why did they assume that Jason could be remodeled into Matt Hasslebeck?

Everytime a coach starts to rebuild the mechanics of someone who has been a starter for a few years' date=' it's always risky.[/quote']

They assumed nothing. They had nothing to lose by trying to remodel Jason since he was destined to fail if let alone. Furthermore, the work Zorn has done has been successful. Physically, he can now succeed. His limitations appear to be mental.