Is our Front Office too Deferential?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Contrary to what Snyder usually is criticized for, I'm wondering if he and Cerrato give the coaches they hire TOO much say in things. Hear me out...

A good organization has an identity and a philosophy. The GM or head of player personnel typically will embody that identity and philosophy. Under Snyder, we've gone back and forth from offensive-minded to defensive-minded head coaches. We've had wide open and conservative head coaches. With every one of those hires, Snyder and Cerrato have given the coaches any player or assistant coach they've wanted. As an avid Snyder supporter, I've always applauded this...but now I'm second-guessing this "generous" behavior.

Turner, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs, and Zorn. On the average, every 2 years we are wiping the slate clean and starting over. Would we be better off if we had an organizational identity and we hired head coaches to fit that mold? That way, holdover players wouldn't always be square pegs needing to fit into round holes and we might be able to have continuity even when we have to change coaches. Instead, every new coach is searching for his QB, defensive leader, etc.

Look at the Steelers...they replaced Cowher with Tomlin and didn't have to make many personnel changes...he just fit in and hit the ground running.

Thoughts?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Bump...I'd like to hear other opinions on this.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I totally agree. There is no organizational identity

The Steelers have had it for almost 40 years.

The 49ers had it for almost 20 years until their new owner messed it up. (that whole WCO thing)

The Ravens have had it this decade.

This organization doesn't have it at all. Once Gibbs retired, a coach in the same mold should have been hired, as opposed to going to a completely different direction with the WCO and a new head coach

You take what Gibbs was trying to do and build off that and set a Redskins identity, regardless of who the coach is

[skins4eva]

This is the fundamental problem with the Skins, and it has been since the moment Snyder bought the team. All organizations function in a top-down manner. Snyder's lack of ability as a manager, coupled with his inability to put his ego aside and hire competent football people has lead us to what we have today: yet another disjointed failure of a Skins team with no future prospects or potential.

[bobs4]

Can somebody start an ATTENTION: Dan Snyder thread?

then if he happens by here he can read my question for him.

Hey Dan. Why did you draft a D.E. just to ruin his career and turn him into a cover corner because I saw him downfield in coverage a lot today?

Could it have something to do with the same reason Walt Harris couldn;t cover here in D.C. but when he went to Seattle he led the NFL in intereceptions and made the pro bowl?

You rush the QB you get sacks and turnovers. You play people at the positions they were drafted at! Orakpo is A DEFENSIVE END for crying out loud.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This is the fundamental problem with the Skins, and it has been since the moment Snyder bought the team. All organizations function in a top-down manner. Snyder's lack of ability as a manager, coupled with his inability to put his ego aside and hire competent football people has lead us to what we have today: yet another disjointed failure of a Skins team with no future prospects or potential.

I appreciate your input, but I don't see it as such a huge, sweeping indictment of Snyder as a manager and someone with a huge ego.

As SHF mentioned, we just need to keep with some positive momentum. Look at the two coaches we've had that ended relatively well (Schottenheimer and Gibbs). Both are conservative coaches who stress discipline and solid D. So, maybe that should be what the Redskins strive to find in coaches and players. That way, like NE, Pittsburgh, Indy, Baltimore, etc....we'll always know what types of players to look for in FA and the draft.

[MattFancy]

We juss need to have someone stay more than 3 years under Snyder.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We juss need to have someone stay more than 3 years under Snyder.

Gibbs stayed 4 and we were no better in year 4 than we were in year 2.

[chipwhich]

I have been saying this all along.

Not sure about Zorn's "say". But the reason we sucked under spurrier and gibbs is they both had too much say.

Gibbs squandered picks and wasted money. Spurrier was given all of his gators.

Please can someone step up and run this team.

[skins4eva]

I appreciate your input, but I don't see it as such a huge, sweeping indictment of Snyder as a manager and someone with a huge ego.

As SHF mentioned, we just need to keep with some positive momentum. Look at the two coaches we've had that ended relatively well (Schottenheimer and Gibbs). Both are conservative coaches who stress discipline and solid D. So, maybe that should be what the Redskins strive to find in coaches and players. That way, like NE, Pittsburgh, Indy, Baltimore, etc....we'll always know what types of players to look for in FA and the draft.

Zorn was the wrong choice. That much is clear. My biggest problem with Snyder is that he doesn't have the patience or vision to implement a strategy and see it through. His goal is to "win now" every year. That's the wrong strategy. Winning franchises are built over time, step by step. I don't think he's learned a single thing after all these years, and that's really the scariest thing.

[MattFancy]

Gibbs stayed 4 and we were no better in year 4 than we were in year 2.

Damn you're right it was 4. But still, that's sad that we haven't had a coach stay longer than 4 years since Snyder has been here. We'll never be consistent contenders if we can't keep a coach around.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I have been saying this all along.

Not sure about Zorn's "say". But the reason we sucked under spurrier and gibbs is they both had too much say.

Gibbs squandered picks and wasted money. Spurrier was given all of his gators.

Please can someone step up and run this team.

Even though I think Vinny's done fine picking players over the past 2 years, I have to say that we might need a bigger personality at GM here. Someone who can come in and run all the football operations, clean house, and come up with a vision and plan.

[Destino]

I think you have it exactly backwards. I think this front office tries to reinvent the wheel too much. Instead of a traditional football team we always have power struggles at the top of our coaching staff.

Marty. Wanted power didn't get it got tossed. And then we began the era of the two headed monster. Spurrier couldn't name his defensive players. He was the "head coach" but in truth he was the offensive head coach, there was another head coach in charge of the defense. Then Gibbs came to town and it was the same damn thing, only it got worse. He initially only ran the offense but then Saunders was brought in and no one knew who the hell ran the offense. The head coach was what exactly? Gibbs leaves and we get Zorn... who is now a offensive coordinator and QB coach but Blache is the sole controller of the defense (and his attitude shows it).

Why the hell can't we just have a team like the Steelers, like the Ravens, or anyone else. A GM, Coach, and coordinators on both sides that aren't giant egos that answer to the damn head coach. A head coach that actually plays the part and doesn't try to fill some shoes here while ignoring half the team.

This team is completely mismanaged from the top down. It has a terrible organizational structure where no one really knows who does what. What input does Zorn have in regards to the roster? What input do Dan and Vinnie have to the offense defense? What input does Zorn have on special teams and defense?

[21forlyfe]

UHH we cut Jackson and lost Dixon to our rivials for Wynn..SMFH we a the dumbest ORG in the nfl

[HailGreen28]

Contrary to what Snyder usually is criticized for, I'm wondering if he and Cerrato give the coaches they hire TOO much say in things. Hear me out...

A good organization has an identity and a philosophy. The GM or head of player personnel typically will embody that identity and philosophy. Under Snyder, we've gone back and forth from offensive-minded to defensive-minded head coaches. We've had wide open and conservative head coaches. With every one of those hires, Snyder and Cerrato have given the coaches any player or assistant coach they've wanted. As an avid Snyder supporter, I've always applauded this...but now I'm second-guessing this "generous" behavior.

Turner, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs, and Zorn. On the average, every 2 years we are wiping the slate clean and starting over. Would we be better off if we had an organizational identity and we hired head coaches to fit that mold? That way, holdover players wouldn't always be square pegs needing to fit into round holes and we might be able to have continuity even when we have to change coaches. Instead, every new coach is searching for his QB, defensive leader, etc.

Look at the Steelers...they replaced Cowher with Tomlin and didn't have to make many personnel changes...he just fit in and hit the ground running.

Thoughts?

You've got things reversed.

Snyder's been too impatient, and TOO MEDDLING, for any head coach other than Gibbs to establish a "team identity".

Aside from Saint Gibbs, whom even Snyder wasn't dumb enough to run out of town, no head coach has had long enough to establish a "team identity" under Snyder.

But Snyder's established his own "team identity" for the Skins. We over-pay for free agents.

That's it. And that is Snyder's legacy to this franchise so far.

[SkinsFTW]

You've got things reversed.

Snyder's been too impatient, and TOO MEDDLING, for any head coach other than Gibbs to establish a "team identity".

Aside from Saint Gibbs, whom even Snyder wasn't dumb enough to run out of town, no head coach has had long enough to establish a "team identity" under Snyder.

But Snyder's established his own "team identity" for the Skins. We over-pay for free agents.

That's it. And that is Snyder's legacy to this franchise so far.

And not only do we overpay for FA's we end up stuck with the wrong systems FA's and draft picks.

I brought this up before. Just look at a position or two.

Like WR's.

Since Marty drafted Gardner in the 1st in 2001 we've traded or used more picks that the Lions did on this position but nobody thinks about it. Schott also drafted McCants.

Coles cost us a 1st because Gardner wasn't ideal for Spurrier's system and Spurrier also used a 2nd on Jacobs and a 3rd on Russel. Gibbs wanted Moss so we traded Coles(a 1st) for Moss, we could have drafted Moss instead of Gardner in 01 and Gardner got cut because he wasn't wanted or good for the system. The Moss trade cost us either Pierce or Smoot, or both because of the cap.

Between 04 and 07, all of Gibbs years, we didn't draft any WR's. We signed a bunch of them though and Lloyd cost us 2 picks, Thrash cost us 1. Patten did little for us and signed a modest contract. Between Lloyd, Moss, and Randel El though we gave out basically 3 1st rounder level WR contracts. McCardell and Caldwell cost next to nothing.

Then in 08 we used a our 1st to trade down and get 2 WR's and 1 TE. This year we drafted Mitchell in the 7th.

Isn't that a lot for a position that's been completely unreliable over this entire decade? It's partially due to systems but thats a lot of picks for such little production. Moss replaced the first we gave up for Coles but also cost us 2 players salaries since we still paid for Coles 10M hit and Moss hasn't been elite other than 2005 possibly due to all the changes elsewhere.

2001's 1st, 5th. 2002's 3rd, 2003's 1st and 2nd, 2008's 1st and 2nd and a 3rd and 4th for Lloyd and a 5th for Thrash between 2004-2006. This is just off the top of my head.

[Spitfire71]

ACK. Completely disagree with this. Give Snyder more power and I guarantee you he turns into Al Davis, Jr.

[paintrain]

Contrary to what Snyder usually is criticized for, I'm wondering if he and Cerrato give the coaches they hire TOO much say in things. Hear me out...

A good organization has an identity and a philosophy. The GM or head of player personnel typically will embody that identity and philosophy. Under Snyder, we've gone back and forth from offensive-minded to defensive-minded head coaches. We've had wide open and conservative head coaches. With every one of those hires, Snyder and Cerrato have given the coaches any player or assistant coach they've wanted. As an avid Snyder supporter, I've always applauded this...but now I'm second-guessing this "generous" behavior.

Turner, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, Gibbs, and Zorn. On the average, every 2 years we are wiping the slate clean and starting over. Would we be better off if we had an organizational identity and we hired head coaches to fit that mold? That way, holdover players wouldn't always be square pegs needing to fit into round holes and we might be able to have continuity even when we have to change coaches. Instead, every new coach is searching for his QB, defensive leader, etc.

Look at the Steelers...they replaced Cowher with Tomlin and didn't have to make many personnel changes...he just fit in and hit the ground running.

Thoughts?

That's why we are going to bring in Shanahan. He's going to bring an identity to our organization and become the 'face' but he's also going to bring an overall system and philosophy to what we do. I don't think he's going to want full control as some have speculated because he spent some time with Pittsburgh and New England studying their organizations and neither one of them has a 'one voice' system in place. He may be president of football operations but he's going to want a GM/Personnel man in place so he can focus on coaching the team.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That's why we are going to bring in Shanahan. He's going to bring an identity to our organization and become the 'face' but he's also going to bring an overall system and philosophy to what we do. I don't think he's going to want full control as some have speculated because he spent some time with Pittsburgh and New England studying their organizations and neither one of them has a 'one voice' system in place. He may be president of football operations but he's going to want a GM/Personnel man in place so he can focus on coaching the team.

But maybe we need that identity ABOVE the head coach.

To me, the way this should always work is that your GM or VP of football operations has a philosophy and identity. He then bases his head coaching choices, player acquisitions, etc. on that philosophy.

If we bring in Shanahan, sure he might do fine here. But what do we do in 5 years when he retires again? We had that with Gibbs. On the surface, he did just fine all things considered. Two playoff appearances, an organization with a true identity, but it was so short-lived. I don't want another 4-year plan...I want to begin defining this franchise.

My dream scenario would be that Snyder hire a true general manager (preferably a rather young one) and decide that he's going to let that man run things for the next 10 years (minimum). Give the guy time to establish himself and make the necessary moves to fulfill HIS football vision.

Hypothetically...let say we fired Cerrato (or like the government does, promote him to a point where he's not involved) and we promoted Morocco Brown to GM. From all accounts, he's pretty well-regarded around the league as a personnel guy and has been here for a few years now. Then, let's say that he decided next year (uncapped) that he wanted to cut ties with some of the old regime (Portis, Griffin, Daniels, Samuels, Rabach, Thomas, Campbell, etc.) and start over. He goes out and hires a head coach that HE wants and works with that coach to fill out a staff. You can maybe retain some hidden gems (again, by all accounts Kirk Olivadotti might make a great DC some day) but essentially you clean house with this uncapped season and you don't cripple yourself when they start a new salary cap in 2011.

That would give this organization a new sense of excitement and make people around here feel that, even if 2-14 is now possible, maybe 13-3 is too. I feel we're in a place where we have enough talent to avoid EVER losing more than 10 or 11 games but not enough organization to ever win more than 10. I'd be perfectly OK with a couple rough years if we were building toward something with a young GM/coaching staff/team.

Hell, in the mid-1990s there was excitement with Turner here. We cleaned house, began to rebuild, and were showing great progress: 3-13 to 6-10 to 9-7 over the course of 3 seasons. Now, it didn't work out in the end. They don't always obviously...but that was our last true rebuild. I think we need another one if we don't improve considerably over the next 3 months.

If Snyder realized that the fans (most of us at least) wouldn't abandon ship if things got ugly for a couple years, maybe he'd be more likely to approach it like this?

[SkinsFTW]

If Snyder realized that the fans (most of us at least) wouldn't abandon ship if things got ugly for a couple years, maybe he'd be more likely to approach it like this?

He already knows this. He'd rather build excitement for every year than to build an actual team.

It's a fact. We all know this.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If Snyder realized that the fans (most of us at least) wouldn't abandon ship if things got ugly for a couple years, maybe he'd be more likely to approach it like this?

Snyder should have done something like that after Marty or after Spurrier or even after Gibbs.

It's the right move, but if he went to a true rebuilding mode right now...in this economy...after several subpar years...he is going to have a very very very hard time selling premium seating. He is already have a problem there.

I don't know if he can afford a 3-13 season.

[@DCGoldPants]

Coaches Change

QB's Change

RB's Change

WR's Change

DL's Change

DB's Change

What are the two constants in this Organization?

Anybody? Bueller?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Snyder should have done something like that after Marty or after Spurrier or even after Gibbs.

It's the right move' date=' but if he went to a true rebuilding mode right now...in this economy...after several subpar years...he is going to have a very very very hard time selling premium seating. He is already have a problem there.

I don't know if he can afford a 3-13 season.[/quote']

Well, I hope he eventually decides he can afford it. I'm not giving up on this year's team. However, if we do have to make a change, I'd love to see a complete shift in philosophy.

Give Morroco a shot to run things for a few years and begin an actual rebuild. Like I mentioned (I think...I've posted in a bunch of threads), an uncapped season next year gives owners like Snyder a rare "get out of jail free" card. He can hit reset by cutting the crazy contracts and give us a fresh start if he wants to.