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Redskins vs. Cowboys: WRs


Henry

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Originally posted by JoeSkins

5 TDs. Bryant isn't a burner able to make long-play touchdowns, and Bill won't let a young QB with dangerous decision-making capabilities (either one, really) blow his shot at touchdowns near the red zone. They'll run inside the 20.

Well,

Bryant had 6 last year, so your saying he will regress in a better offense and another year under his belt?

And did you miss his 78 yarder last year?

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Bryant is too much of a headcase to ever be truly great, Galloway is merely adequate and far too injury prone.

Glenn is a solid 3rd wideout, but he was brought into be the man (or something close to it) in GB and he was easily surpassed by a trio of youngsters.

I don't see how anybody can say Dallas has the edge at WR. The 'Skins have proven commodities in Coles and Gardner, with definite potential at the 3rd wideout.

Dallas has potential at 1 with Bryant and aging mediocrity in the next 2 slots.

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Part of having a good 2nd year for any player is being able to build on what you did in your rookie year. In order for that to happen you have to be coachable. Bryant is a lot of things, but coachable isn't one of them. I can see the Tuna blowing up on him now.

OK pukes fans....if you want a preview as to how Bryant's career will turn out, think Albert Connell. Similar players, similar attitudes, similar outcomes.

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Originally posted by Brave

As I said before ... I believe Bryant WILL be a fine WR. However, keep in mind one thing about his stats from last year:

He had one HUGE game against the Redskins. Take away those 170 yards and his total yards for the other 15 games is only 563, or less than an average of 38 yards per game.

This is, of course, routine for rookie WRs. Flashes amidst a lot of non-production.

Gardner had a 200+ yard game his rookie season, take those yards away and he too looks "less than Adverage".

(I think Gardner is better than Bryant)

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Originally posted by Ken

Well,

Bryant had 6 last year, so your saying he will regress in a better offense and another year under his belt?

And did you miss his 78 yarder last year?

Dan Wilkinson had an 80-yard return for a TD once on defense, does that mean he has breakaway speed? And how is the offense better? A bad QB is a bad QB is a bad QB, and Hutch and Carter are bad QBs. Emmitt is also gone to take pressure off of the QBs. Basically, the ground game is underestimated in Dallas, but since it is underestimated, Parcells will use that to his advantage. He'll run near the goal line when people are keying on Bryant (because he would be a great red zone target for any other team). He won't regress because he's bad, he'll just drop in numbers by chance.

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Originally posted by Ken

So I guess we can take away Gardner's big game his rookie year too.

10/21 Carolina W 17-14 6rec 208yds 34.7avg 85lng 1 TD

I mean, since were adjusting numbers and all.

Yes ... you can. Same thing with Gardner.

The two DID have remarkably similar rookie years. And if Bryant ups his production and consistancy and breaks 1000 yards this year they will have had similar sophmore years as well.

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Since when is Bryant a "headcase"? Randy Moss is a headcase. Terrell Owens is a headcase. Bryant is just emotional and a little immature.

I don't know about who has the best WRs in the division, but I do know I'd rather have the Cowboys or Redskins WR corps over the Giants and Eagles anyday. I also know that out of all the WRs on the 'Boys and 'Skins rosters, Antonio Bryant is the one i would want over all the rest. 44 receptions, 740 yards, 16.7 YPC, 6 TDs (1 TD per 7.33 receptions). That's a really good year for a rookie WR in one of the worst passing offenses in the league, not to mention that over the last 9 games Coslet kept benching him in favor of his illegitimate son, Darnay Scott ( who did NOTHING all year, btw). If If If Dallas gets merely adequate QBing this season, I think AB will challenge for the best WR in this division. If he is anywhere close to his averages from last season, with more receptions we'll see a 1200 yard, 8+ TD year.

80 receptions at 16.7 per catch = 1336 yards; 1 TD per 7.33 receptions (80 receptions) = 11 TDs

80-1300-11 TD season, VERY possible.

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Those would be lofty predictions for ABs 2nd year, ChrisFul. Possible perhaps, but I would probably be a little more conservative. He's still got an unproven QB, an O-line that is not as strong as it used to be and now a running game with a lot of question marks. All this could work against Bryant's considerable, but still raw, ability

It seems quite possible to me that teams will seek to stop the pass first vs. Dallas now that Emmitt has gone, at least until THam shows he can come close to filling his shoes.

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Originally posted by Brave

Those would be lofty predictions for ABs 2nd year, ChrisFul. Possible perhaps, but I would probably be a little more conservative. He's still got an unproven QB, an O-line that is not as strong as it used to be and now a running game with a lot of question marks. All this could work against Bryant's considerable, but still raw, ability

It seems quite possible to me that teams will seek to stop the pass first vs. Dallas now that Emmitt has gone, at least until THam shows he can come close to filling his shoes.

Well, the 1300 yards, 11 TDs prediction is a bit lofty, but thats merely a sampling of what he COULD do if his rookie averages hold and he gets more receptions. I doubt it would work out that way, but my "prediction" was in the sentence before that....1200 yards, 8 TDs. I don't think that is that lofty, consdering that AB wasn't on the field that much in his last 9 games and still managed to pull down 700+ yards and 6 TDs with question marks at QB, the WORST OL play in NFL history, and an aging RB. Can't get any worse than that.

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1. The Redskins have an edge at receiver because of Coles. He is not only just entering his prime but was the most productive of ANY of these receivers on both teams in 2002. Galloway has yet to repeat the production he had early on in his career in Seattle.

2. With Bryant for Dallas and Jacobs for Washington being very young and potentially very good players, the upside for both teams at WR is definitely there.

3. Because of the qb situation in Dallas the numbers of the wideouts in 2003 may not reflect their true talent. In Washington I think Ramsey is further along and will be consistent enough for Coles, Gardner and Jacobs to put up good numbers.

4. The Redskins offensive line shapes up currently as the better of the respective units and protection of the qb is another element in the productivity we are likely to see in the passing game. This is magnified by the fact the Cowboys don't have an experienced qb who can get outside, read the coverages and make plays.

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couple of points. At this point the redskins WR corp is better than the cowboys, though since Jacobs hasn't played you can't really rate him except for his potential (same type argument was used against bryant last year by many skins fans here).

Gardner's one weakness is his hands (and not the fastest player) and that was the knock on him when he was coming out. Bryant doesn't have blazing speed neither, but he does have great hands. now regarding the sophmore slumps some one refered to, I guess that didn't apply to the skins, wasn't Gardner in his second season? actually the sophmore slumps are normally directed towards QBs. (but then again that doesn't apply to skins neither).

one quick correction (Bryant was drafted in the 2nd round and talent wise was considered a first rounder, much like Jacobs).

Glenn had 56 catches last year. I take that for a 3rd WR in a heartbeat. Though I doubt if he will get that many this year since our QB situation is not quite the same.

given the cowboys QB situation the nod has to go to the skins. In addition the skns run a pass happy offense, and the cowboys are geared towards a power running game. you expect the skins WR to have much better stats this year.

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Shawn, good points, although Gardner actually showed excellent hands last year. In his rookie year he had far to many drops, but last year he proved to be very reliable at catching the ball over the middle as well as going up and taking the ball with defenders all over him. He's also not slow (4.45 I believe), but I'd probably give Bryant the nod in the speed category.

I still don't believe the two receivers are comparable, unless you're talking only in terms of potential. Gardner has proven that he can excel as a #1 receiver while beating double coverage, and Bryant has not been given that opportunity yet. I think we'll really start to see what Rod is capable of this year when facing #2 corners.

That said, I still think Bryant can excel as a #1 receiver, and he's really the only receiver on the Cowboy's roster that I see as dangerous.

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I'm pretty sure that if Bryant gets his head out of his a$$ on and off the field, he'll be a very good, if not great receiver, (I'm pretty sure that Parcells will have something to say about that). But the question is:

What if Bryant starts getting impatient with Parcells' run-first offense and starts making waves in the press? Parcells won't put up with that, and sit his a$$ on the bench.

Another question that should be addressed as well is what if Bryant starts believing all the press about him and gets all Terrell Owens on Parcells? Again, Parcells will tell Michael Irvin Jr. to have a seat.

I think that Bryant's success in the NFL will be predicated on his attitude, because he has the skill.

That being said, I'd take the Washington's WR corps over Dall-asses, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. :cheers:

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agreed that Bryant is an emotional player and needs to keep that in check and I am not sure if he is as talented as owens to have the coaches put up with and certainly parcells won't put up with any kind of bad attitude, since he is a teams only guy and has won with less.

though there is no mention of galloway and I understand that he is 30 years and on the downside of his career, to his defense he has never really had a good QB and been put in a good situation. the two years he had warren moon in seattle he responded with two probowl appearances. Given the QB situation in dallas galloway has performed as expected. Though some may argue that galloway should make the team better and help the qb, when you look at the rest of the team and see the same theme repeated no matter who is in there, then one has to concede that its not all galloways fault. I think he is till good for another couple of years, but he may not stay in dallas due to his large contract and given the WR corp that's coming out in the draft next year.

I also like dallas' situation with glenn being the 3rd WR. He may actually excel at that spot at this point in his career.

I know a lot of people here like Gardner and like Jacobs, but don't expect too much out of Jacobs his first year. He will be the 3rd wide out, he is a rookie and unless you were a randy moss you won't be able to find too much success your first year. If he catches in the 30's with around 500 yards he has done great.

I also think that after next year (2004) Gardner maybe gone depending on how jacobs and russell improve. Will the skins be able to afford gardner if he continues to improve and show as he has the past couple of years. I am also not sure if it will be a big loss for the skins if Gardner ends up leaving.

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Gardner will only be making close to 800K in 2004. I reeeaaally, really doubt if we'd release him.

He's not a free agent until 2006. Will we be able to afford him then? Who knows....

It probably won't even matter?

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For my money Amani Toomer is the best WR in the NFC east and probably the most underrated WR in football. However, if Coles can keep progressing like he was doing in NY, then I could see him stealing the crown from Toomer. Bryant is a very good WR and could be great if he can keep his head screwed on right.

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This is not a hard question at all. The Redskins have two receivers coming off 1,000-yard seasons leading the way. Galloway last saw a 1,000-yard season four full years ago. Glenn last saw one three full years ago. The point here is there's absolutely no comparison.

It's so far and away tilted in our advantage not only in terms of present day production, but also to our favor in terms of favorable offenses to play in and a superior prospect at quarterback to play with.

Those here who are attempting to lift Bryant over Gardner are simply confused souls. In no way does Bryant have any tangible advantage. He may evolve into a better player and a lot will be shown of him this year, as it was from Gardner, but, Gardner was a better NFL prospect coming into the league than was Bryant. Hell, for that matter, so was Jacobs.

The only advantage the Cowboys certainly have entering the season is I'd take whoever their third receiver is over Jacobs before the first snap of the season. Jacobs is a rookie and despite being a better receiving prospect than Bryant coming out, that doesn't mean he'll evolve into an NFL player worth having around.

We've had a similar discussion on Bryant in a thread I started a while back here:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26387&highlight=bryant

The fact remains that no one denies Bryant had an acceptable year. What's frightening is the number of people in this thread willing to give Bryant an advantage over Gardner despite having a lesser rookie year in a better passing offense. And Gardner then had a very solid second season.

Perhaps we love what we don't have too much for our own good sometimes.

In my view Bryant will wind up the third receiver for Dallas this year. I don't find him to have the skills of even Galloway or Glenn who are two very diminished players who lack the skill to be a true threat game in and game out. If not for the Eagles in our division the Cowboys would have the weakest unit in our division.

Perhaps stronger at No. 3 than other teams. Just too weak at the top end to give them any real hope. If Bryant catches 70 passes for 1,000 or so yards it will have been a highly successful season for him just as it was one for Gardner this past year. If Jacobs draft projection holds and he's a legitimate NFL receiver then we will have advantages in each key receiving slot that the Cowboys can't match either in terms of actual production or skills.

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RWA,

Gardner has the speed advantage too, at least according to their reported test times entering the draft. And size as well if you're looking to really boost things. And, ability to get open to me means one guy catches 71 balls while the other catches 44 that it's HARD to give the guy with 44 the advantage in getting open. But, hey, that's just me :).

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no way gardner has a speed advatage, but i'll give him the rest!

take him any day over AB...

i take that back (not prefering RG), in looking over their 40 yard dash times they both ran just sub 4.6... for some reason i thought that AB was quicker, maybe that was pre-injury...

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A.J.

Gardner has the speed advantage in terms of running faster according to workout times heading into the draft. That's not a guess. It's not a debate. It's simply factual. Likewise, Gardner times faster than Jerry Rice ever did, but, I think on the football field it didn't take much imagination to agree that Rice played the game at a faster tempo at his peak.

It does, however, take a great deal of imagination to say the same of Bryant at this point. He certainly doesn't appear to be faster in the games I've seen. Like Gardner, he did prove himself to be something of a deep threat as a rookie, as both averaged over 16 yards a catch. You may be right that Bryant ultimately IS a more speedy player. It's just certainly not the case if one takes what factual basis is out there and comes to a conclusion.

There's a reason Gardner was a better receiving prospect as an NFL receiver than was Bryant. Every measurable advantage was in his favor. Every one. That's a good baseline to begin measuring players in my view.

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Gardner's one weakness is his hands (and not the fastest player) and that was the knock on him when he was coming out. Bryant doesn't have blazing speed neither, but he does have great hands. now regarding the sophmore slumps some one refered to, I guess that didn't apply to the skins, wasn't Gardner in his second season? actually the sophmore slumps are normally directed towards QBs. (but then again that doesn't apply to skins neither).

--Shawn

Here are scouting reports for each player coming out courtesy of Joel Buschbaum - the preeminent independent scout. As you can see, they have pretty simililar attributes. However, Gardner's hands were hardly a problem coming out of school. In fact, they were an asset.

Also worth noting is that Gardner was rated considerably higher coming out: 6.10 - 5.75. There was even talk of Gardner going in the top 10 to Green Bay or Seattle in 2001. Dallas fans like to consider him a 1st rounder who "fell" out of the top stanza but his grade indicates otherwise. He went right about where this expert felt he should go - the end of the 2nd round.

Gardner

Positives: Big, powerful receiver who is very tough and durable. Bench-presses 400-plus pounds and uses his strength to outmuscle defenders for the ball. Excellent athlete with superb balance and body control. Has exceptional ball skills and pass-catching ability. Can make the difficult and even the circus catches. Knows how to push off without getting flagged. Is no burner but still gets deep.

Negatives: Lacks great speed and does not have a great burst to separate. May have trouble getting good separation on the next level.

Summary: Excellent power receiver with terrific ball skills and pass-catching ability.

Bryant

Positives: Tall, with a big wingspan and good jumping ability. Natural receiver with soft hands and great ball skills, body control and timing. Almost always comes down with jump-balls and is very effective in the red zone. Makes tough catches look easy and makes some superhuman catches. Has supreme confidence in his ability and will not be intimidated. Beats all types of coverages and makes big plays. Can return punts. Has good playing speed, knows how to use that speed and can get deep.

Negatives: Has a very high opinion of himself and may have some issues or baggage. Has a lot of growing up to do and does not seem to realize he can’t keep getting away with things because he is a football star. Has dropped some balls because he wanted to look cool and catch it in a nonchalant manner.

Summary: In many ways will remind you of Cris Carter when Carter was in college, but Bryant is not as big or acrobatic as Carter. And unless Bryant really grows up and matures, he may never realize his potential.

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