SkinInsite Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 WAUSAU, Wis. -- An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it - an Iraq war veteran - claims the officers trespassed and stole his property. A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest - over a liquor license The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said. "It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/10/AR2009071002576.html?referrer=reddit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I would think that it's perfectly reasonable for the police to investigate a flag flying upside down, given it's meaning, so the trespass is out. And they gave it back, so the stealing is out. The guy sounds looney, he should verify the liquor license before spending the 200K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wantarace17 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 He can protest in another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 4th Amendment - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. The removal of his property, displayed as a non-violent protest, seems excessive, especially considering this quote from the story - "Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July. "It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said." Obviously there are things that are not being said in the story. Did this man have a verbal agreement or a reasonable expectation of receiving a liquor license from the town council? Did he just piss someone off and that councilperson has made their pesonal thing become a problem for a citizen and taxpayer/potential source of business taxation? Is the restaraunt located next to a school or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I can't think of a bigger insult to the spirit of the 4th of July than for the cops to do what they did. Better to point and laugh at the loser cry-baby whos wittul feewings are hurt 'cause he can't get a liquor license Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Couldn't the cops have just asked the man why his flag was upside-down? :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Wait, flying a flag upside down is disrespectful? Crap. if it's turned 90 degrees, which side should have the stars, up or down? I occasssionaly have one in front of our house in the garden. On the story side, nothing was illegal and it was on his property, but the police thought it ok to remove it (even if they gave it back). Where does that authority come from? Are we now only allowed to protest in ways others find they can ignore even if we follow all laws? Wow. I sometimes wonder what people think that flag really stands for if not for the ability to disagree with everything the government it stands for does and says without legal reprocussions. I would view the taking of my property by an officer as a legal reprocussion. Unless the flying of the flag upside down is illegal, and the article says it's not, then the taking of it was unconstitutional invassion and theft. I would not think the return of an item means it was not stollen in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 :doh: 1st AND 4th amendments ignored, there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsBry Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The guy wants to start his own business and they are prohibitting him from doing so. Is this the correct mode of protest? Maybe not, but he's not hurting anyone, unlike the village is financially hurting him. How many of those people that got their panties in a bunch over his flag also make a stink about anyone who leaves their flag up at night time without a light on it? How many of those cops take those flags down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I would think that it's perfectly reasonable for the police to investigate a flag flying upside down, given it's meaning, so the trespass is out. And they gave it back, so the stealing is out. The guy sounds looney, he should verify the liquor license before spending the 200K. It's not stealing if someone gives it back after they seized it without due process or legal authority? Where exactly do you live? I promise I will bring your stuff back later (sometime):cool2:. He can protest in another way. People can choose to protest in any legal way they wish to. The government has no rights not granted to it in the Constitution, Laws, or City Charter. People retain all other rights not granted to Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Investigating the flag being upside down was the right call. their reasoning was wrong however. The flag being flown upside down is a symbol of immediate distress and it is a legitimate way of flying the flag in the event you need immediate attention from authorities etc. confiscating the flag is inappropriate. flying the flag that way without legitimate reason should be treated seriously but taking the flag is unreasonable seizure. this man has a case against the police. @ whoever mentioned the flag flying after dusk unlit: it's in the US code, but as I understand it it's not illegal to fly it at night unlit. that part of the US code concerning flag etiquette isn't enforceable law, it's just guidelines I believe. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsBry Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Better to point and laugh at the loser cry-baby whos wittul feewings are hurt 'cause he can't get a liquor license He put his ass on the line in Iraq for this country and invested $200,000 to pursue the American Dream. A group of people using their government positions are standing in his way. Calling him a loser cry-baby is out of line, but I expect nothing less from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 It's not stealing if someone gives it back after they seized it without due process or legal authority? According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljs Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Wait, flying a flag upside down is disrespectful? Crap. if it's turned 90 degrees, which side should have the stars, up or down? I occasssionaly have one in front of our house in the garden . FYI http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/flagetiq.html Flag Code-United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/flagcode.htm TO add on 08-21-59 Executive order 10834 http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/more/10834.htm WHEREAS the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (63 Stat. 377), as amended, authorizes the President to prescribe policies and directives governing the procurement and utilization of property by executive agencies; andWHEREAS the interests of the Government require that orderly and reasonable provision be made for various matters pertaining to the flag and that appropriate regulations governing the procurement and utilization of national flags and union jacks by executive agencies be prescribed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 He put his ass on the line in Iraq for this country and invested $200,000 to pursue the American Dream. A group of people using their government positions are standing in his way. Calling him a loser cry-baby is out of line, but I expect nothing less from you. Correct me if I'm wrong, Zoony, but taken in context with the rest of the post, I'd say Zoony was being sarcastic with that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized. Could they ask him to take it down and explain to him why they would like him to take it down for one day? Sure. Can they go on his property and take it down because it might cause problems. Nope. Its still theft, even if they returned it the next day. While I don't like the idea of him doing that...its within his rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MintHillSkinsFan Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dude should've caught the ass whupping of his life for disrespecting the flag like that. Either that or been deported to Berkely with the rest of the hippies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized. I don't see anything you are claiming (emotional calls, attempts to contact, concern over potential vandalization) in the story text. Where are you getting the information? If the police received some emotional calls, threatening vandalism (typically a crime) of the property of a citizen, the correct response is to let those callers know that their course of action is illegal and will not be tolerated. The police should also ensure that their presence in the vicinity of the property to protect it is duly noted by other citizens. This looks like small town politics run amok. I live in a small town and this type of crappy behavior occurs all the time. Your logic is understandable, but it actions taken by the police (as detailed in the OP link) are wrong and Unconstitutional. I don't claim any knowledge of the laws of Wisconsin or the town charter where this occurred, so I can't comment on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsBry Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 @ whoever mentioned the flag flying after dusk unlit: it's in the US code, but as I understand it it's not illegal to fly it at night unlit. that part of the US code concerning flag etiquette isn't enforceable law, it's just guidelines I believe. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. Yeah, I know I was just pointing out the hipocracy. A group of people get upset, so the police overstep their boundries. Other things that are just as disrespectful go overlooked. Police that get involved with flag issues are going against the First Amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Could they ask him to take it down and explain to him why they would like him to take it down for one day? Sure. Can they go on his property and take it down because it might cause problems. Nope. Its still theft, even if they returned it the next day. While I don't like the idea of him doing that...its within his rights.Once again, they claim they tried unsuccessfully to contact him. Then they took the flag without his knowledge just hours before the parade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dude should've caught the ass whupping of his life for disrespecting the flag like that. Either that or been deported to Berkely with the rest of the hippies. An ex-marine who served in Iraq, with a legitimate beef becomes a hippy? He didn't burn the flag or disrespect it in any way. He used it in an allowed manner to indicate his distress and to signal his opposition to repressive government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I don't see anything you are claiming (emotional calls, attempts to contact, concern over potential vandalization) in the story text. Where are you getting the information? I actually went and read several different articles on this story. The knee-jerk response seemed too easy in this one. Plus anyone reading the original story should have gotten the vibe that this guy was a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Once again, they claim they tried unsuccessfully to contact him. Then they took the flag without his knowledge just hours before the parade. TimmySmith, you have now stated this twice. The information on attempting to contact him is not in the article. Where is this information coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurrayH81 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I actually went and read several different articles on this story. The knee-jerk response seemed too easy in this one. Plus anyone reading the original story should have gotten the vibe that this guy was a jerk. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Once again, they claim they tried unsuccessfully to contact him. Then they took the flag without his knowledge just hours before the parade. So then you agree his flag was stolen by the police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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