Curious about oppinions on this third trimester abortion situation from a med student

[gbear]

Late abortions. would you support abortion as an option for the woman/couple in this story? I ask because so many on here, like my wife reflexively seem to say third trimester abortions are an evil act.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/05/AR2009060502006.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

...end of page 1 on to page2

As I continue my education, my views on abortion are still evolving. Take late-term abortions. When I first heard about them, I was horrified. I remember the flyer I saw at a pro-life event that described the procedure: It claimed that when the baby's head emerges, the doctor jabs a pair of scissors into the back of its neck, severing the spinal cord. Even after I became pro-choice, this crossed a line for me. But later, I learned that this description was misleading and graphically politicized.

It wasn't until I spent time in ultrasound rooms during a research job in graduate school that I began to see late-trimester abortions in a very different light. In one case, the patient's baby had just been diagnosed with a lethal congenital anomaly. The high likelihood was that it wouldn't survive after birth for more than a few minutes. As long as the baby remained in her mother's womb, however, she would live. I asked the physician what this woman's options were. The answer was, not many. She could choose to continue the pregnancy, but then she might be waiting for almost 20 more weeks to give birth to a baby that would never take more than a few breaths on its own. She was past the point where she could legally terminate the pregnancy in Alabama. If she could get an appointment in Atlanta within the next week, she might be able to have the procedure there. Beyond that, there were only a few physicians in the nation who would perform an abortion in such a case.

I could hardly wrap my mind around the agony that this woman and her husband must have been facing. They needed a caring and compassionate physician to help them through this dark moment, and if they chose not to continue the pregnancy, they also needed a physician who was both skilled enough and brave enough to provide them with the care they needed. They needed Dr. Tiller.

....

I tried to word this poll as neutrally as I could. Sorry if anyone feels this is a push poll.

[Mickalino]

I remember the flyer I saw at a pro-life event that described the procedure: It claimed that when the baby's head emerges, the doctor jabs a pair of scissors into the back of its neck, severing the spinal cord. Even after I became pro-choice, this crossed a line for me. But later, I learned that this description was misleading and graphically politicized.

Then how are late-term abortions typically done ?

According to this site, it sounds not much different than what you described, if not worse....the baby is dis-membered. (and this site is not even a "pro-life" site, so you can't claim it's distorted)

"Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These “pieces” of your baby will be removed one at a time"

http://www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/late-term-abortion.htm

[gbear]

I didn't write the article. I posted it because I think many see third trimester abortions as uniformly horrible. I honestly don't know what my wife and I would do. I know she does not believe in third trimester abortions. I just can't imagine knowing you have to carry a baby for 20 more weeks that will never take more than 2 or 3 breaths.

I wonder at the psycological impact on the family.

Some of us were not meant to be. It's sad. Unfortuantely, all of us live but to die. For that fetus/baby, the parents had to know their love would probably not be returned in this world. I cringed.

I really just posted to present another side that kind of contradicts the "truths" many of us accept because it's all we are ever exposed to.

[HailGreen28]

How convoluted do you have to make a scenario, to justify general cases of abortion? :doh:

[Mickalino]

I didn't write the article. I posted it because I think many see third trimester abortions as uniformly horrible. I honestly don't know what my wife and I would do. I know she does not believe in third trimester abortions. I just can't imagine knowing you have to carry a baby for 20 more weeks that will never take more than 2 or 3 breaths.

I wonder at the psycological impact on the family.

Some of us were not meant to be. It's sad. Unfortuantely, all of us live but to die. For that fetus/baby, the parents had to know their love would probably not be returned in this world. I cringed.

I really just posted to present another side that kind of contradicts the "truths" many of us accept because it's all we are ever exposed to.

But you raise the question on late-term abortions, then only give examples of where the baby might not survive the pregnancy.

So which is it ?

Are you asking whether they should be allowed at all, or only under certain circumstances ?

[GibbsFactor]

But you raise the question on late-term abortions, then only give examples of where the baby might not survive the pregnancy.

So which is it ?

Are you asking whether they should be allowed at all, or only under certain circumstances ?

I think it's clear he's asking under this specific circumstance, making the point that not ALL late term abortions should be shelved.

[gbear]

I only posted this because so many in the Dr. Tiller thread were so adamantly against all abortions, and even more were against late term abortions. I posted this just as an attempt to humanize some of the hard choices made every day. Am I saying every late abortion is this case? Of course not. I am saying there is a lot of gray and in my mind probably good work being done by those villanized.

I'm sorry some see this as convoluted. I didn't write the article. I'm not the med student who saw the situation. What makes me sad is that some can't see that real life, unlike the pretty Sunday school sermans or familly channel shows, really does have situations like this. I submit that if you disagree, I am happy your life never sees the greys, the hard choices. Ironically, I didn't see this as convoluted at all, but maybe that's because I already surround myself with the medical outliers. I'm just not convinced that our lives really that many standard deviations from the norm.

[twa]

In this specific case I have no objections,but do wish they would show the same consideration in ending the lives of terminal or vegetative patients early.

How do you feel about abortions simply for mental stress?..a supposed Tiller specialty

How about those that use it as birth control?

Why not give parents the option of ending the life of their child at any time?

I'm Pro-Choice:evilg:

[gbear]

TWA, the vegetative state euthanasia is a large part of why Washington state and Oregon are my 2 top choices for retirement locations.

You wouldn't call this an abortion for mental stress? Isn't that only reason to do it now rather than wait 20 weeks? I do get your point. If there is another outcome, stress would seem should take a back seat to a life.

Birth control? I wonder how many wait for the 3rd trimester for birth control? Yikes what a pian to change your life for 6 months for nothing.

As for the at end any time...well 2-4 years old as the terrible 2's really means the terrible 2 years...well, let's just say we'd have a population crater with a lot fewer 5 year olds....Yikes!

[CrabR]

I am for. Mediacl rasdons only

My sister inlaw had one at 7 months

The fetus was all mostly head w/tiny body with no viable brain and would die upon birth

[gbear]

CrabR,

would this case count as for medical reasons? The fetus would live until birth just not much beyond.

Obviously to my mind it would, but I'm probably an outlier as to my views on what should be legal on the abortion continuum.

[stevenaa]

I wouldn't use extreme cases such as this to determine the general law on abortion. Extreme cases such as this should be exceptions. My wife and I would likely decide to carry to term, but I believe the health of the baby or mother are viable concerns and should be a matter of choice where the outcome is known.

[Gracelander]

I'm very mixed about the whole issue, but I think that in the third trimester abortions shouldn't be performed unless there is an absolute thread to the mother's life. The part i'm torn about is, is it right to terminate a known to be deformed baby because of our thoughts of how the quality of his life would be. I'm very mixed on that part of it. Are we doing it our of total consideration of the baby, or is it partly selfish reasons by not wanting to care for a deformed baby.. I dunno, I try to stay out of these discussions only because i'm not really educated on this topic, even though I should be since a "girlfriend" of mine and I had to have an abortion (she was married).. ughh i'm just gonna read the topics from now on..

[Mickalino]

Here is one way to look at it -

there have been cases where babies born prematurely, as early as 21 weeks, have survived.....so if it is enough of a live being to survive outside the womb, after just after 20 weeks, how can anyone justify an abortion after 20 weeks ? (other than threat to the mother's life)

[Vicious]

If the mother is going to die, or there is a heavy risk of death. Abort. Save the mother, she can make more life.

[Larry]

How convoluted do you have to make a scenario, to justify general cases of abortion? :doh:

Yeah, you're right.

This is nothing at all like basing your position on late term abortions on what happened in one case, where things went horribly wrong, from 15 years ago, before the current procedure was even invented.

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But that was a snarky response to a complicated issue.

Gee, maybe the correct answer is that one size doesn't actually fit all.

[HailGreen28]

Yeah, you're right.

This is nothing at all like basing your position on late term abortions on what happened in one case, where things went horribly wrong, from 15 years ago, before the current procedure was even invented.

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But that was a snarky response to a complicated issue.

Gee, maybe the correct answer is that one size doesn't actually fit all.

So you agree with my point? Or was your snippyness based on your assumption: that I thought only one side of the abortion issue played this stupid game?

[Larry]

In this specific case I have no objections,but do wish they would show the same consideration in ending the lives of terminal or vegetative patients early.

Agreed. I really don't understand this whole thing about not allowing people to chose suicide, for example.

How do you feel about abortions simply for mental stress?..a supposed Tiller specialty

Observing that "simply" for mental stress can cover a whole lot of gray area. (But yeah, my initial reaction from out here in the cheap seats is that that sounds like a convenient lie.)

How about those that use it as birth control?

I'd assert that very few people use late-term abortion for birth control. However, if you can show me one, then I can certainly see arguments against it. (I can also see arguments for it. But I think I'd lean closer to "against".)

Why not give parents the option of ending the life of their child at any time?

Don't know why, but I'm thinking, now, about those 14 year old rapists in the other thread.

[robotfire]

How convoluted do you have to make a scenario, to justify general cases of abortion? :doh:

That was a GREAT post.

[Larry]

Here is one way to look at it -

there have been cases where babies born prematurely, as early as 21 weeks, have survived.....so if it is enough of a live being to survive outside the womb, after just after 20 weeks, how can anyone justify an abortion after 20 weeks ? (other than threat to the mother's life)

Did you read the OP?

The baby in question is guaranteed not to survive, even if carried to term.

(I seem to remember reading about a case, maybe like this one, maybe this very one. The fetus never developed lungs. As long as it stays in the womb, it will be perfectly OK. But it will never breathe.)

[stevenaa]

Here is one way to look at it -

there have been cases where babies born prematurely, as early as 21 weeks, have survived.....so if it is enough of a live being to survive outside the womb, after just after 20 weeks, how can anyone justify an abortion after 20 weeks ?

I don't think that's the point of the question by the OP. Are there viable reasons while late term abortions should be permitted? I'm staunch pro-life/Anti-Abortion, but I believe there are. Though a very tiny fraction of cases would fit IMO.

[Larry]

I wouldn't use extreme cases such as this to determine the general law on abortion. Extreme cases such as this should be exceptions. My wife and I would likely decide to carry to term, but I believe the health of the baby or mother are viable concerns and should be a matter of choice where the outcome is known.

What about the people who are trying as hard as they possibly can to see to it that in "extreme cases such as this" the law will mandate a decision, no exceptions?

Supposedly (I say that because I recognize that the pro-life people aren't the only "side" in this debate who would be willing to create an urban legend to further their argument) the woman in this case had no options in her home state. The best option her Doctor could suggest to her was to run to another state and hope that one Doctor in that state could fit her into his schedule, before it became illegal in that state, too.

[techboy]

I seem to remember reading about a case, maybe like this one, maybe this very one.

You mean like 3 days ago?? Good memory!

[Larry]

I don't think that's the point of the question by the OP. Are there viable reasons while late term abortions should be permitted? I'm staunch pro-life/Anti-Abortion, but I believe there are. Though a very tiny fraction of cases would fit IMO.

Just a gut feeling, but I suspect that "a very tiny fraction of cases" is what we have, right now.

I seem to remember in The Tiller Thread, reading that supposedly there are only three Doctors (now two) in the entire US who are willing to perform these procedures, right now.

Which implies to me that these procedures are already a tiny fraction, right now.

[Mickalino]

disregard...