A former SAM linebacker under Blache once posted 10 sacks twice....guess who?

[Snagletooth]

And they guys you have up there are either 4-3 DE's or 3-4 OLBs. 4-3 OLB usually dont get alot of sacks in comparison, because they are not alway rushing the passer, they have coverage responsibilties as well.

Yeah if Rak is playing a traditional role as a SAM in a classic 4-3 on the non-passing downs then he won't approach those sack numbers. If Blache changes up the defense with some sort of hybrid packages that we can run with some consistency with design to free up Rak to attack. Then my expectations are for Rak to approach those double digit sack numbers like some of the top sack guys, DE's or 3-4 Backers.

[seanyt]

I dunno, I think Blache is a better and smarter coordinator than anyone around here wants to give him credit for. He schemes his defenses towards his players abilities, rather than forcing them to do something they can't or don't want to do. The guy coached Reggie White, other good defenders and overall defenses, so I think he'll be using the new guys and the ones who are still here to the best of their abilities, just like he did last year that got us the 4th best defense.

You are absolutely right, and I couldn't agree more!!! The guys D Knowledge would blow me away 7 days a week!! He is a Paid professional!!! He probably even knows what his D had for breakfast before the game...

I guess when it comes down to it I prefer the way Richie Petitbon did it as D coordinator! When our D Line were sack machines, sure our Lb's would get a couple sacks (monte coleman a bit more than a couple in 1984), and a couple int's.too, and there was just so much pressure the qb's would nearly be crapping their pants to get rid of the ball, and with all those panic throws our secondary use to record some INT's.... Oh and we were making the playoffs nearly every year...

[MikeBass]

You are absolutely right, and I couldn't agree more!!! The guys D Knowledge would blow me away 7 days a week!! He is a Paid professional!!! He probably even knows what his D had for breakfast before the game...

I agree, the arguments that Blache knows better than members here is correct but what good is a discussion board without members opinions and participation?

And too, not saying that Blache will be one of them but coaches and coordinators are fired every year for making bad decisions so they can be wrong just like regular Joes.

[bulldog]

Blache has to work with the talent he is given. He is never going to go public and tell the fans that he would really prefer to have a proven outside linebacker to start against the Giants to allow the team to ease Orakpo in at DE as a rookie and ensure he is able to have an impact that first year in the NFL.

But I think that would be his preference.

You can't take what the coaches say at 100% face value. They are trying to motivate certain players to do more and be more, at the same time they are trying in some cases to do damage control and deflect criticism from decisions the club made that were not perhaps ones that look good in retrospect.

Zorn may very well be saying the same thing to himself in regards to the RT spot.

The Redskins brought in a young lineman from the Seahawks for a visit in free agency but only were willing to offer him (Willis?) a one year minimum contract. He was resigned by Seattle to a multi-year deal.

So, why the team was willing to trade 2 picks for Pete Kendall at age 34/35 and give him a new two year contract for additional monies while not being willing to do the same at RT in 2009 is anyone's guess.

Zorn and Bugel have been back and forth in their support of players on the OL. Other than Chris Samuels, it doesn't not appear as if ANY players come into camp without some questions about what they will contribute.

[illone]

Come on BLC, you've heard Blache mention he fits the Defense he runs to the personel.

[bulldog]

Gregg Williams was here for 4 years. His entire history as a defensive coach has been to be aggressive and have his front seven attack the ball. The only time that didn't obtain was in 2006 and 2007 with the Redskins when the talent on the DL seemed to be on the decline and the injuries mounted.

Washington never did acquire that dominant DL or rush linebacker that Williams could use in tandem to pressure the quarterback and so he relied on a deep cover system that was bend-but don't break.

I didn't see Williams use that in Tennessee and I doubt he will use it in NO this season.

When you are evaluating coordinators, sometimes looking at their histories and then seeing what they are NOT doing with a particular defense gives you a clue in that the club is lacking personnel at several key positions.

[seanyt]

I agree, the arguments that Blache knows better than members here is correct but what good is a discussion board without members opinions and participation?

And too, not saying that Blache will be one of them but coaches and coordinators are fired every year for making bad decisions so they can be wrong just like regular Joes.

Tottaly agree, I especially like the bad decisions can lead to termination...

I guess I'm hoping Blache will bring the pressure like Petitbon did with a nasty D line. I think we have it with Orakpo, Haynesworth, and Carter. Haynesworth is already a force to be reckoned with, Carter has been the only bright spot on our line capable of double digit sacks and now with a speedy and strong Orakpo playing next to Haynesworth, there should be no choice but to bring it from up front, and let our secondary pick off the hurried throws...

Or I suppose he could get cute with it and if it doesn't work out then I hope he gets fired...

[mistertim]

So, we blitz more than most teams and still managed to finish at the bottom of the league in sacks. That's sad. And a testament on how bad our D-line is at creating pressure.

:mad:

I think one of the biggest issues when it comes to us getting pressure and sacks, be it with 4 guys going or more on a blitz, was the fact that we had NOBODY getting any pressure in the middle. Monty and Golston are decent but they are mostly run stoppers. They don't get much of a push or collapse the pocket so the QB could just step up when the DEs were getting near them on the edge.

When Griff was younger and healthier he did get that penetration and we got much more pressure back then, especially with blitzes. Now we have a human shaped wrecking ball in Haynesworth who not only gets a huge push up the middle and absolutely must be at least double teamed, but but also clogs the middle and stuffs the run. I think and hope that with him there and with AC on one side and Rak coming from the other (whether on a blitz or with his hand in the dirt) we will see much more pressure this year.

[Metalhead]

Ok, pardon my ignorance, but what does SAM stand for?

[bulldog]

The Redskins were a poor blitzing team in 2008. Like a basketball team that gets fouled but can't make the free throws, the Redskins called blitzes but quarterbacks often were able to audible away from the blitz or blitzers simply missed the tackle and allowed quarterbacks to step up and complete passes down the field when they should have been on their backsides.

The Redskins haven't had a good blitzer from the front seven since Marcus Washington in 2004 when he made the pro bowl.

The loss of Sean Taylor took away another player who could have excelled in the role as a situational blitzer from the secondary.

I agree things should be better in 2009 because the Redskins have upgraded their talent on the DL and now have players in Haynesworth and Orakpo that are difficult matchups for their opposite numbers in a way that Demetric Evans and Kedric Golston were not.

[seanyt]

:QUOTE=mistertim;6471752]I think one of the biggest issues when it comes to us getting pressure and sacks, be it with 4 guys going or more on a blitz, was the fact that we had NOBODY getting any pressure in the middle. Monty and Golston are decent but they are mostly run stoppers. They don't get much of a push or collapse the pocket so the QB could just step up when the DEs were getting near them on the edge.

When Griff was younger and healthier he did get that penetration and we got much more pressure back then, especially with blitzes. Now we have a human shaped wrecking ball in Haynesworth who not only gets a huge push up the middle and absolutely must be at least double teamed, but but also clogs the middle and stuffs the run. I think and hope that with him there and with AC on one side and Rak coming from the other (whether on a blitz or with his hand in the dirt) we will see much more pressure this year.

Amen brother!!! It's nice being on the same page...

I look back at the #'s when Mann and Manley had double digit sacks, and just remember how Awesome our D line was as a kid just destroying other teams. Just seems like the right formula to help get this team back to the playoffs year after year...

[MikeBass]

I think one of the biggest issues when it comes to us getting pressure and sacks, be it with 4 guys going or more on a blitz, was the fact that we had NOBODY getting any pressure in the middle. Monty and Golston are decent but they are mostly run stoppers. They don't get much of a push or collapse the pocket so the QB could just step up when the DEs were getting near them on the edge.

When Griff was younger and healthier he did get that penetration and we got much more pressure back then, especially with blitzes. Now we have a human shaped wrecking ball in Haynesworth who not only gets a huge push up the middle and absolutely must be at least double teamed, but but also clogs the middle and stuffs the run. I think and hope that with him there and with AC on one side and Rak coming from the other (whether on a blitz or with his hand in the dirt) we will see much more pressure this year.

With the addition of the "human wrecking ball" (Haynesworth) and the "sack machine" (Orakpo) wouldn't it be better to let the front four (I'm including Rak at DE) produce the pressure and let the back seven personel be suited with better pass defenders?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't blitz because we are definitely going to on occasions but more often than not, having 4 who can get to and/or pressure the QB without blitzing will allow for more turnovers by different players....Not to mention give the front four even more time to get to the QB by having good coverage.

[mistertim]

With the addition of the "human wrecking ball" (Haynesworth) and the "sack machine" (Orakpo) wouldn't it be better to let the front four (I'm including Rak at DE) produce the pressure and let the back seven personel be suited with better pass defenders?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't blitz because we are definitely going to on occasions but more often than not, having 4 who can get to and/or pressure the QB without blitzing will allow for more turnovers by different players.

Good points, but the thing about just getting pressure from your front 4 is that there really generally aren't any surprises. The offense knows who is where and what the defense is doing. Now, that works well when you have an elite front 4 who just plain beat their guys no matter what. The Giants were completely ridiculous on passing downs when they had Osi on one side, Tuck in the middle to put pressure there, and Strahan on the other side. Carter is good, but he is no Strahan. Rak has tons of potential but he is not an Osi (yet).

So I think that in many ways having more guys on the line or not knowing which guy is blitzing, which guy is going to drop back, etc, can be just as problematic to a QB as having the extra guy back there in coverage against a 4 man rush. I think eventually Rak will end up a full time DE but for now they want to be able to use his abilities while he gets adjusted to the speed, etc of the NFL game. :2cents:

EDIT: I said Haynesworth was a human shaped wrecking ball, as I'm still not altogether convinced he is human.

[mistertim]

Ok, pardon my ignorance, but what does SAM stand for?

I think someone posted this earlier in the thread. But those are the nicknames for the LB spots (in a 4-3 usually).

SAM = Strong side OLB (lines up on the side with the TE)

MIKE = Middle linebacker (lines up...in the middle or off center a bit)

WILL = Weak side OLB (lines up on the other side of the SAM without the TE)

[MikeBass]

Good points, but the thing about just getting pressure from your front 4 is that there really generally aren't any surprises. The offense knows who is where and what the defense is doing. Now, that works well when you have an elite front 4 who just plain beat their guys no matter what. The Giants were completely ridiculous on passing downs when they had Osi on one side, Tuck in the middle to put pressure there, and Strahan on the other side. Carter is good, but he is no Strahan. Rak has tons of potential but he is not an Osi (yet).

So I think that in many ways having more guys on the line or not knowing which guy is blitzing, which guy is going to drop back, etc, can be just as problematic to a QB as having the extra guy back there in coverage against a 4 man rush. I think eventually Rak will end up a full time DE but for now they want to be able to use his abilities while he gets adjusted to the speed, etc of the NFL game. :2cents:

EDIT: I said Haynesworth was a human shaped wrecking ball, as I'm still not altogether convinced he is human.

I think that having a good pressuring front four brings the element of surprise whenever we do decide to blitz. If teams know that we are a blitzing team, they can prepare for just that but if they do not know when we are going to bring it, it's just a guessing game to opposing teams.

[Morneblade]

Yeah if Rak is playing a traditional role as a SAM in a classic 4-3 on the non-passing downs then he won't approach those sack numbers. If Blache changes up the defense with some sort of hybrid packages that we can run with some consistency with design to free up Rak to attack. Then my expectations are for Rak to approach those double digit sack numbers like some of the top sack guys, DE's or 3-4 Backers.

Ok, but then are you rushing 4 guys, or 5 guys when you're doing this? If your basically just blitzing him (A.E. he's the 5th guy) then you're exposing your coverage more. and if you're only bringing 4, then what D-lineman is droping into coverage?

[Metalhead]

I think someone posted this earlier in the thread. But those are the nicknames for the LB spots (in a 4-3 usually).

SAM = Strong side OLB (lines up on the side with the TE)

MIKE = Middle linebacker (lines up...in the middle or off center a bit)

WILL = Weak side OLB (lines up on the other side of the SAM without the TE)

So the letters don't stand for anything? Or do the names refer to some player(s)?

I've just never heard of or seen this terminology ever used until recently, out of the blue.

[illone]

So the letters don't stand for anything? Or do the names refer to some player(s)?

I've just never heard of or seen this terminology ever used until recently, out of the blue.

Rather than saying the "S" backer, they just call it SAM. Strongside = S = SAM.

Phonetics, man.

[gutlead74]

reading this i just had an epiphany, Roosevelt Colvin was a College DE converted to the SAM....I don't like this move but hey maybe i am wrong, I really hope I am actually. I am a big believer in history and how it is cyclical, i feel a little better about all of this, thanks for posting

[Snagletooth]

Ok, but then are you rushing 4 guys, or 5 guys when you're doing this? If your basically just blitzing him (A.E. he's the 5th guy) then you're exposing your coverage more. and if you're only bringing 4, then what D-lineman is droping into coverage?

Your rushing both 4 or 5. Orakpo could blitz, drop into a shallow zone or be responsible to man a RB or even the TE. Sometimes Carter may have the same responsibility with the RB. A safety could pick up the responsibility. Yes at times the secondary may be more exposed. But no more so than when Horton blitzes. Also teams may find it necessary to keep that TE or RB in to protect the QB. Then your not exposing the secondary. Now you are dictating to the offense and still rushing the passer with favorable match-ups.

I'm not completely sold on this "hybrid theory". It does makes sense with big bodies at the LDE like Daniels and with the addition of Lorenzo at the LDE spot. But I don't see how Carter fits that scheme, run with any regularity. And we are yet to see any indication that AC is preparing for such a role.

The Chris Wilson article: "Redskins' Other Hybrid Must Grow Into New Role."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060202607.html

Indicates that Rak and Wilson are the hybrid players. This may be simply because they will be switching between SAM and DE in a classic 4-3? Or that they are hybrid players in a hybrid role in a hybrid defense? This doesn't add up entirely too me because AC's role in a "hybrid defense" has not been addressed. And we know that he prefers to be a DE solely.

Ultimately I believe that we will run some 4-3 hybrid. But not extensively. And Orakpo will play few snaps in a classic 4-3 role as a SAM and few snaps at LDE on base packages as well. And will receive the bulk of his playing time as a pass rush specialist. Which likely means he wont be approaching the double digit sack totals that some of the elite pass rushers managed in their rookie seasons.

It may hinge on Carter and Blache's willingness to adapt a system that has been successful. And Zorn's commitment to push toward a scheme geared more specifically to getting pressure on the QB. That was a focus Zorn stated early in the off-season, getting more pressure on the QB. Maybe the personnel additions are enough with AH and Orakpo or maybe we will see the 4-3 under stuff more extensively as the season goes on?

[TheLongshot]

That is correct and if he isnt blitzing (and we cant expect him to be blitzing on every 3rd down anyway) he will be in coverage.

No different from Marcus Washington before him, who wasn't that great in coverage. Considering Orakpo's athleticism, he might even eventually be an upgrade there.

Someone else brought it up, using specifically that statement. I was responding to that. I'm not sure if what you say is the case though. I think it's more about he void at SAM. If we had M. Washington there like he was thre 4 years ago, Orakpo would never get a snap at LB. While run stopping might not be what he is best at as a DE, it's going to be better than his coverage skills. And if he is going to be a DE in this league, he better start getting that worked on. And playing SAM most of the time is not going to make that happen faster it will increase the time it take for him to be able to do that.

Well, Washington isn't here anymore, and this role seems to be the one he's been drafted for. It is one they were looking into all the way back at the combine. If this is the role that they want him to play, I also would want them to get him into the middle of it as soon as possible.

I dont think it's that at all. It's more about the percieved hole at SAM. Orakpo was looked at as a 3-4 OLB (and getting his hand down in passing situations) or a 4-3 DE, not a 4-3 OLB that will be in coverage more often than as a 3-4 OLB. Versatility is nice, but being ok at a few different positions just means "you're OK". And we need some "really good" guys.

Course, that's assuming that he will be "just OK".

Blache has to work with the talent he is given. He is never going to go public and tell the fans that he would really prefer to have a proven outside linebacker to start against the Giants to allow the team to ease Orakpo in at DE as a rookie and ensure he is able to have an impact that first year in the NFL.

But I think that would be his preference.

You have no idea what his preference is. Considering that for most of this offseason they've been talking about moving DEs to LB and that there was no real push for a SLB in the offseason, the evidence is really weak that this isn't his preference.

Zorn may very well be saying the same thing to himself in regards to the RT spot.

Actually, he has said that, but he at least has enough faith in what he has that he doesn't feel he needs Jansen as a crutch.

The Redskins brought in a young lineman from the Seahawks for a visit in free agency but only were willing to offer him (Willis?) a one year minimum contract. He was resigned by Seattle to a multi-year deal.

So, why the team was willing to trade 2 picks for Pete Kendall at age 34/35 and give him a new two year contract for additional monies while not being willing to do the same at RT in 2009 is anyone's guess.

Well, there is still a chance to make a Pete Kendall kind of deal if it is necessary. That wasn't done until Training Camp when it was clear we didn't really have good options. We are probably in much better shape than that year, when we were depending on a career tackle to convert to guard to fill the position.

Zorn and Bugel have been back and forth in their support of players on the OL. Other than Chris Samuels, it doesn't not appear as if ANY players come into camp without some questions about what they will contribute.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Buges is always supportive of his linemen (definitely a guy you do not take at face value, but you can read between the lines somewhat.) The only questions I see right now is if Samuels and Thomas will be full strength and who will win the RT position.

[seanyt]

Hard to get excited over this when you've been hoping for a 1st rd starting D lineman for years now!!!

Lb's we could've had: Cushing, Mathews, or Maualuga...

Who knows it's only June...

[mistertim]

Hard to get excited over this when you've been hoping for a 1st rd starting D lineman for years now!!!

Lb's we could've had: Cushing, Mathews, or Maualuga...

Who knows it's only June...

You want QB pressure? We got the guy. Them moving him around is so he can make plays, be it standing up rushing or in a 3 point stance and his hand in the dirt. Those other guys are pure LBs. We got a guy who can rush the passer very well from a 3 point stance and has the athleticism to rush standing up as an OLB. There is a reason that Orakpo went high (though he was projected higher...we got a steal) and those guys went way after.

[seanyt]

You want QB pressure? We got the guy. Them moving him around is so he can make plays, be it standing up rushing or in a 3 point stance and his hand in the dirt. Those other guys are pure LBs. We got a guy who can rush the passer very well from a 3 point stance and has the athleticism to rush standing up as an OLB. There is a reason that Orakpo went high (though he was projected higher...we got a steal) and those guys went way after.

I know, and agree with you!!! This is the guy I wanted too. Went nuts when we got him. The Wife realized on Draft day we got Orakpo when she heard me go ape ****!!! I personally feel he will be an enormous factor lined up next to Haynesworth!!!

[gutlead74]

I'm not completely sold on this "hybrid theory".

I soundy dissagree, that was a great album!

i guess in the end it doesnt even matter that i tried so hard, and had to fall