JP: Far-right wing activists launch anti-Obama campaign

[Predicto]

Your spelling is as atrocious as ever. I'm convinced you dropped out of elementary school.

Memo from Personnel Department.

Dear Sir: We are sorry to inform you that the pedantic schoolmarm position has been filled here at the Tailgate. Thus, your request to upgrade your grade from shallow posturing troll has been denied.

Thank you.

[Corcaigh]

Athiests

There's a dog on my side.

That's real, and much, much better.

[JMS]

Fringe? That's like saying the evangelicals are a fringe GOP supporter. These were the same people pulling Sharon's strings.

I would argue that evangelicals were a fringe political faction at times. What removed them from the fringe and made them part of Bush's base was they became a major component of the folks who elected GW in 2009.

What makes the settlement folks a fringe is they are a few hundred thousand folks in a country of six million. They are not a majority, nor are the a component of the base of a majority party. they are a fringe recurted in order to give Netanyahu the pleurality he needs to form a government.

And Kadima and Likud were essentially tied but Netanyahu runs the show. Nobody even remembers Livni's name anymore.

"essentially tied" like Gore and Bush in 2000? Or Coleman and Franking in 2008? Fact is Kadima won the majority of the seats in the last Israeli election with 28 out of 120. Likud won 27 seats. Likud and Netanyahu were asked to form a government because they had more support from the littler more radical parties. That was my point.

Regarding your quote, replace "Obama" with "Ahmawannajihad" and you sum up why this so-called fringe is making its voice heard in the first place.

Actually the most important fringes of Israeli politics deal with the land for peace issues, not Iran. I don't think many Israeli politicians form elections strategies based on down playing I'mADinnerJacket's comments.

Your spelling is as atrocious as ever. I'm convinced you dropped out of elementary school.

It's another part of Gods plan. He made me very very smart, but he gave me the crutch of poor spelling so I wouldn't be intimidating.

I hope you guys appreciate that I'm making a real effort to go with the yahu rather than yahoo in beeBee's sir name.

[Vicious]

I'm an Atheist and if there was a god I'm sure he would come over to my house to hang out, because I wouldn't be all up in his grill.

[hokie4redskins]

Memo from Personnel Department.

Dear Sir: We are sorry to inform you that the pedantic schoolmarm position has been filled here at the Tailgate. Thus, your request to upgrade your grade from shallow posturing troll has been denied.

Thank you.

[Comic Book Guy]Worst........joke.......ever.[/Comic Book Guy]

"essentially tied" like Gore and Bush in 2000? Or Coleman and Franking in 2008? Fact is Kadima won the majority of the seats in the last Israeli election with 28 out of 120. Likud won 27 seats. Likud and Netanyahu were asked to form a government because they had more support from the littler more radical parties. That was my point.

Okay, so who has more clout? That was my point.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Bang]

I'm an Atheist and if there was a god I'm sure he would come over to my house to hang out, because I wouldn't be all up in his grill.

This had me laughing

~Bang

[JMS]

Okay, so who has more clout? That was my point.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

I don't mean too. I'm trying to elaborate. sorry I'm doing a poor job of it.

So here is the break down.

The Kadima party's stated policy is to seek a two state solution with the Palistinians. Land for Peace. They were the largest vote getters in the last Israeli elections. 28 seats out of 120. They have also had the last three Israeli PM's.. Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert, and Ehud Olmert again.

Lakud, who is non commital over land for peace but was a vocal critic of the Kadima party who has been in power for nearly a decade **(2001-2009) pior to the last election, was the second largest vote getter. They won 27 seats.

Yisrael Beiteinu party which came in third with 15 seats or 13% of the vote is strongly against slowing, stoping, or rolling back settlments. Thus strongly against Kadima, which by proxy gives them something to talk about with Lakud, Kadima's chief rival.

Now Labor won 13 seats, and they are also for land for peace. they got the defense minister position for coming into Netayahu's government... Basically sold their soles for power.

Then you have Shas party, who doesn't really care about peace so much. They're more concerned with religous laws like shabat and making sure Israel's socialist governmental policies remain in tact. Keep heavily funding the yeshiva students.. etc.

So the way the parlementary system works you have to have 50% + 1 seats to form a government. Kadima won't join into an agreement with Lakud, But Lakud(27), Yisrael Beiteinu(15), labor(13) and Shas(11), have the votes... 66 seats between them.

Problem is as you've stated, if Netanyahu decided to try a land for peace deal Yisrael Beiteinu party would take their 15 seats and go home... Ending Netanyahu's administration.

66-15 = 51 < 61 != Lakud in power.

Yisrael Beiteinu party ( Israel is our home ) lead by Avigdor Lieberman with 13% of the vote thus has more power than the Kadima (way forward) party who actually won the last elections in Israel.

It's a property of the parlementary system.

** Actually Sharon was elected to power as a Lakud candidate, but he formed his own party (kadima) and formed his own government with them when it became apparent he would not be able to retain the leadership of the Lakud party over Netanyahu in 2005. One of the biggest differences between Sharon and the rest of Lakud was Sharon's stated support for a two state solution with the Palistinians.

[Mad Mike]

Call me biased, but I am not really interested in hearing what the wife of Jonathan Pollard has to say to America.

Agreed.

[JMS]

Call me biased, but I am not really interested in hearing what the wife of Jonathan Pollard has to say to America.

She and her husband are actually like cult figures on the Israeli right. "For what they did for Israel"... They are so popular that when Netanyahu was last PM, he threw a lot of political mussle behind trying to get Johnathan Pollard pardoned from prison...

Then President Clinton went so far as to privately agree to pardening him according to Netanyahu, who gave a statement to the press to that effect. Bill had to crawfish on the proposed pardon when his secretary of state, secretary of defense, and atterney general all said they would resign en mass, if he went through with the pardon....

Thus Johnathan Pollard remains in Jail today....

It's interesting that Pollard was never tried for his crimes too. Pollard reached a plea deal in exchange for a pretty modest sentence of 5 years with the federal prosecutors. Casper Weinburger Ronald Reagans old Secretary of Defense wrote a frend of the court sentencing statement detailing in his opinion the consequences of Pollard's spy disclosures. The judge decided to void the plea deal and give Pollard life. So in prison he remains. Most of what he actually took remains classified. When the Israeli's came parioulsly close to getting him released under Clinton, there were targeted leaks to teh press to detail why the defense, state and justice departments feel so strongly about keeping him. Seymore Hersh wrote an excellent article on the subject if anybody is interested.

Why Pollard Should Never Be Released (The Traitor) by SEYMOUR M. HERSH in 1999

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts

[Predicto]

[/i]

Then President Clinton went so far as to privately agree to pardening him according to Netanyahu, who gave a statement to the press to that effect. Bill had to crawfish on the proposed pardon when his secretary of state, secretary of defense, and atterney general all said they would resign en mass, if he went through with the pardon....

It was a little more complicated than that. Clinton was trying to broker a huge peace deal (the Wye River accords) and Netanyahu made releasing Pollard a part of the requirement for getting Israel to sign the deal.

[Mad Mike]

This issue brings up my one conspiracy theory. At least, as close as I get to one.

After 9/11 it was brought to light and quickly swept under the rug that there may have been Israeli agents here keeping track of some of the terrorists. I always wondered how much they knew. And if they knew something was up, did they keep it to themselves in the hope that a major attack would enrage us enough to take their side with no restrictions. The issue with Pollard tells me that Israeli intelligence doesn't mind crossing lines to get what they want, but how far would they go. Would they stoop that low?

It all sounds crazy huh? I mean if there was anything to this, our government would know, right? And if they knew, they would do something, right? I don't think so. I think they would take it as a painful lessoned learned and pretend nothing happened. Anything else would complicate issues and enrage American opinion against israel with no good outcome.

Of course all of this is my pure speculation based on a few reports that Israelis may have been tracking the hijackers and the knowledge that they are experts on organizations like al Qaeda.

Pure speculation. Still....

[Predicto]

This issue brings up my one conspiracy theory. At least, as close as I get to one.

After 9/11 it was brought to light and quickly swept under the rug that there may have been Israeli agents here keeping track of some of the terrorists. I always wondered how much they knew. And if they knew something was up, did they keep it to themselves in the hope that a major attack would enrage us enough to take their side with no restrictions. The issue with Pollard tells me that Israeli intelligence doesn't mind crossing lines to get what they want, but how far would they go. Would they stoop that low?

It all sounds crazy huh? I mean if there was anything to this, our government would know, right? And if they knew, they would do something, right? I don't think so. I think they would take it as a painful lessoned learned and pretend nothing happened. Anything else would complicate issues and enrage American opinion against israel with no good outcome.

Of course all of this is my pure speculation based on a few reports that Israelis may have been tracking the hijackers and the knowledge that they are experts on organizations like al Qaeda.

Pure speculation. Still....

Wow. I gotta say that I never heard that one.

No offense, but unless I get more info, I'm gonna put it in the same place that I (and you) generally put all conspiracy theories.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

This issue brings up my one conspiracy theory. At least, as close as I get to one.

After 9/11 it was brought to light and quickly swept under the rug that there may have been Israeli agents here keeping track of some of the terrorists. I always wondered how much they knew. And if they knew something was up, did they keep it to themselves in the hope that a major attack would enrage us enough to take their side with no restrictions. The issue with Pollard tells me that Israeli intelligence doesn't mind crossing lines to get what they want, but how far would they go. Would they stoop that low?

It all sounds crazy huh? I mean if there was anything to this, our government would know, right? And if they knew, they would do something, right? I don't think so. I think they would take it as a painful lessoned learned and pretend nothing happened. Anything else would complicate issues and enrage American opinion against israel with no good outcome.

Of course all of this is my pure speculation based on a few reports that Israelis may have been tracking the hijackers and the knowledge that they are experts on organizations like al Qaeda.

Pure speculation. Still....

I highly recommend this book.

Gideons Spies: The Secret History Of The Mossad.

[Mad Mike]

Wow. I gotta say that I never heard that one.

No offense, but unless I get more info, I'm gonna put it in the same place that I (and you) generally put all conspiracy theories.

No offense taken. As I said. Just my personal speculation. More of a what-if than anything else.

[Redskins Diehard]

This issue brings up my one conspiracy theory. At least, as close as I get to one.

After 9/11 it was brought to light and quickly swept under the rug that there may have been Israeli agents here keeping track of some of the terrorists. I always wondered how much they knew. And if they knew something was up, did they keep it to themselves in the hope that a major attack would enrage us enough to take their side with no restrictions. The issue with Pollard tells me that Israeli intelligence doesn't mind crossing lines to get what they want, but how far would they go. Would they stoop that low?

It all sounds crazy huh? I mean if there was anything to this, our government would know, right? And if they knew, they would do something, right? I don't think so. I think they would take it as a painful lessoned learned and pretend nothing happened. Anything else would complicate issues and enrage American opinion against israel with no good outcome.

Of course all of this is my pure speculation based on a few reports that Israelis may have been tracking the hijackers and the knowledge that they are experts on organizations like al Qaeda.

Pure speculation. Still....

Susannah

[Corcaigh]

No offense taken. As I said. Just my personal speculation. More of a what-if than anything else.

The truth in it may be no more than what the US also knew: Al Qaeda operatives had plans to hijack and crash airliners. And people with Al Qaeda ties were in the US and being tracked (although apparently our folks lost contact with them).

No-one knew that the towers would fall, and that the Al Qaeda attack would precipitate the Afghan and subsequent Iraq invasions.

[Jumbo]

Your spelling is as atrocious as ever. I'm convinced you dropped out of elementary school.

So you're convinced JMS dropped out of elementary school.

First, I have to say that were it not for relentless editing of every post I make because of my atrocious typing skills (ask the other staff) my posts would bear great resemblance to JMS's.

Now, whether he's an incompetent speller, or terrible keyboardist, or English is his second language, I don't know.

But totally aside from his actual views on any topic, and the degree to whether I agree or disagree with those various views ,JMS consistently presents content that puts him in the category of the more educated, informed, well-behaved, interesting, and obviously intelligent posters on the forum.

You on the other hand, within the context I italicized above, consistently offer content that puts you in an entirely different category of posters on the forum.

So I was pretty impressed with the irony of your remark. :cool:

P.S. It may be interesting to see how many tangents this thread takes.

[Mad Mike]

The truth in it may be no more than what the US also knew: Al Qaeda operatives had plans to hijack and crash airliners. And people with Al Qaeda ties were in the US and being tracked (although apparently our folks lost contact with them).

No-one knew that the towers would fall, and that the Al Qaeda attack would precipitate the Afghan and subsequent Iraq invasions.

Very true. I've thought of those things as well. Even in the worst case *IF* they knew something was going down, I cant imagine how they could have known what the plan was or how bad things would get.

It's all just a weird nagging feeling that they knew, or at least thought something was up and didn't try to warn us.

But you are right. We had our own clues and couldn't put the pieces together so it's not hard to imagine they were in the same boat.

BTW. I would never suggest all Israelis are untrustworthy. It's the fact that there are some hardliners like the ones in original post that I don't completely trust.

Now lets get back on topic.

[Jeeb]

i saw a group of protestors protesting because people were protesting.

People will ***** and complain about anything nowadays.

we're not gonna protest. We're not gonna protest!!!

[Burgold]

Very true. I've thought of those things as well. Even in the worst case *IF* they knew something was going down, I cant imagine how they could have known what the plan was or how bad things would get.

It's all just a weird nagging feeling that they knew, or at least thought something was up and didn't try to warn us.

But you are right. We had our own clues and couldn't put the pieces together so it's not hard to imagine they were in the same boat.

BTW. I would never suggest all Israelis are untrustworthy. It's the fact that there are some hardliners like the ones in original post that I don't completely trust.

Now lets get back on topic.

I would hope... if they knew, they knew at or less than at the level of the infamous, "Bin Laden to use planes to attack the U.S." Memo that Rice and our administration famously ignored. In other words, they knew some whispers, but nothing really concrete and actionable.

On a civilian level, it's impossible to know what is shared, what isn't, what games are being played, and what the end motives really are. Clearly, Israel's primary interest is Israel as the United States' first concern is the United States, but along the way, I think we've tried to be mostly good allies to each other (with a few bumps along the way)

[JMS]

It was a little more complicated than that. Clinton was trying to broker a huge peace deal (the Wye River accords) and Netanyahu made releasing Pollard a part of the requirement for getting Israel to sign the deal.

Not a requirement. a sweetener. Netanyahu presented it as something which would make signing the treaty more palitable among his supporters. It wasn't a requirement. I say this because even after Clinton crawfished on the deal, Netanyahu / Israel did sign the Wye River accords.

To be fair, Clinton claimed he never made the agreement, Clinton just had less credibility on the subject than Netanyahu, and then there was the reported threat of mass resignations from inside the Clinton administration too.

George Tennant head of CIA also was among the group to threatenned to resign along with Sec defense, State and Atterney General as I remember..

[JMS]

This issue brings up my one conspiracy theory. At least, as close as I get to one.

After 9/11 it was brought to light and quickly swept under the rug that there may have been Israeli agents here keeping track of some of the terrorists. I always wondered how much they knew. And if they knew something was up, did they keep it to themselves in the hope that a major attack would enrage us enough to take their side with no restrictions. The issue with Pollard tells me that Israeli intelligence doesn't mind crossing lines to get what they want, but how far would they go. Would they stoop that low?

Ok so here is what I remember about these reports....... There were four such reports in the paranoia after 911.

#1 It was reported that Israeli citizens who worked in the World Trade center were told not to report to work on the morning of 911. This turned out to be untrue, there were about 4000 Israeli citizens who worked in or around the World Trade center and there wasn't any unusual absense from work that day.

#2 After the attacks the Israeli PM Netanyahu said at a press conference that these attacks were very good for Israel. Pretty poorly worded. He went on to say, that it would make the US more sensitive to the threat of terrorism which Israel lives under every day.. Which was true, it did.

#3 As for Mosad agents in the US, survaling the terrorists. There were reports of Israeli "agents" influtrating US military instalations on the days leading up to 911. These reports were entirely discredited. Evidently some folks were selling paintings in front of a few different bases and they had some ties to Israel, and in the paranoia after 911 these ties were investigated and disproved as a systematic attempt to infultrate us military complexes.

#4 A second report was of several Israeli's ( The White Van) dancing in public on a video with the burning world trade centers in the background. Obviously they weren't survaling the terrorists cause they were on the ground. These guys were reported to police cause they looked middleeastern and were acting strangely, the morning of 911 and were picked up. The police found the video of them laughing and joking about the crashes. These folks were pretty quickly released and subsequently returned to Israel shortly after the attacks. The house painting business which they worked for closed up shop shortly there after as it's owner also returned to Israel. There were some rumors of ties between the Mossad and the painting business but no accusations of involvement in 911. Rather the video and offensive happyness of the folks in the white van had more to do it seems with glee of being in the front row of such a global historic event and happyness they were safe.

Of course all of this is my pure speculation based on a few reports that Israelis may have been tracking the hijackers and the knowledge that they are experts on organizations like al Qaeda.

Pure speculation. Still....

The Israeli's likely were tracking some of the Terrorists. I'd be very supprised if they weren't. Many of the folks who took part in 911 were on our watch lists. Lists, likely shared with or perhaps even ooriginating in Israel. That isn't even close to proof they knew what was going to happen. Hell we were tracking those guys and most of them not only got into our country using their real names, we gave them Drivers liscenes in their own names here in Virginia.

[JMS]

Susannah

Exactly... but that was in the early 50's, Israel fire bombed the US embassy in Egypt and tried to make it seem Egypt had done it. They were trying to get us to support their upcoming Suez War Israel was planning with France and Britain to snatch back the recently nationalized Suez Canal from Egypt..

Blew up in their faces when the Egyptians captured the crew who planted the bombs and got them to confess. The Israeli defense minister was forced to resign over that scandal. President Eisenhower ended up thwarting the suez war and forced the Israeli's, British, and French to withdraw. See Operation Susannah, or the Lavon Affair.

Still huge difference between 1950's and 2001, a lot of positive history between the two countries have occured since then.

[Predicto]

Not a requirement. a sweetener. Netanyahu presented it as something which would make signing the treaty more palitable among his supporters. It wasn't a requirement. I say this because even after Clinton crawfished on the deal, Netanyahu / Israel did sign the Wye River accords.

To be fair, Clinton claimed he never made the agreement, Clinton just had less credibility on the subject than Netanyahu, and then there was the reported threat of mass resignations from inside the Clinton administration too.

George Tennant head of CIA also was among the group to threatenned to resign along with Sec defense, State and Atterney General as I remember..

We may never know exactly how it all happened. I have read very different accounts of the same events.

My point was that Clinton was not just offering to spring Pollard out of the blue - it was part of a much larger deal he was hoping to achieve.

[JMS]

We may never know exactly how it all happened. I have read very different accounts of the same events.

My point was that Clinton was not just offering to spring Pollard out of the blue - it was part of a much larger deal he was hoping to achieve.

That's true enough. The case of Johnathan Pollard and his wife as deonstrated by this article remains an important one to many Israeli's. Thus Pollard was introduced into the negotiations as a bargoning chip. Netanyahoo requested his release as part of the larger deal. Moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem has also been on the table and then taken off.