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JLC- Holmgren on Campbell: 'Have Some Patience


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lol.

Its so sad that we have become so accustomed to bad play here that people are happy with someone that is barely mediocre.

I guess it is because we have never had a Peyton manning dynasty type QB to relate to.

No. I dont think JC as peaked just yet. I dont think hes perfect, and I dont think he will ever be as good as Brady or Manning. But unlike other people on this board, I dont think that rotating your roster every two to three years is the formula for building a better franchise. Stability is key.

You ever wonder why our defense stays competitive? Stability.

You ever wonder why our special teams (sans punting and kicking) stays competitive? Stability.

The one wekness that we keep tinkering with and switching systems... and coaches... and players... is the offensive side of the ball. I guess you could say they have been successful in making the offense offensive.

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Oh yeah... becuase Turner had NOTHING to do with it... or the New HC... or the 11th ranked defense... it was all Matt Ryan. I forgot.

Selectivley? I compared them head to head. No bones about it. Your the one bring in intangiables like leadership, composure, etc...

How do you measure leadership? For some its calm under pressure. For other, they want to see them get mad and ghet in peoples faces. IMO, I think JC has gret composure and is a sure leader, just by his reactions to the whole Cutler/Sanchez thing.

What composure has Ryan shown other than having one of the best rated (for 2008) offensive line keeping him upright so he could throw bomb after bomb to Jenkins/White?

He has not had to overcome tem defficiencies (which is something the JC haters say any good QB should do). Where are all his come from behind wins? His clutch performances? Anything? He a good QB who had the benefit of a GREAT line and a RB who ran for more TD's than he could throw for. If Portis had 17 TD's on the year, we would ave been in the playoffs... and went deep.

The haters bring the mythical "it" factor and intagiable things to this debate... not the supporters. Everything I wrote is stone cold fact. Deal with it.

I still have not heard one factual rebuttle in the 4 monthst this whole QB controversy has dragged on. Maybe you could be the first...

As for your last question? Yes. Right now, I would.

-Please don't speak for all those displeased with performance of Jason Campbell Passizle... I can recall debating this subject with you but not a month or two ago and I brought up facts consistently...

-If need be I can bring up the numerous facts against JC

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No. I dont think JC as peaked just yet. I dont think hes perfect, and I dont think he will ever be as good as Brady or Manning. But unlike other people on this board, I dont think that rotating your roster every two to three years is the formula for building a better franchise. Stability is key.

You ever wonder why our defense stays competitive? Stability.

You ever wonder why our special teams (sans punting and kicking) stays competitive? Stability.

The one wekness that we keep tinkering with and switching systems... and coaches... and players... is the offensive side of the ball. I guess you could say they have been successful in making the offense offensive.

-I would venture to say our defense has changed more starting personnel in the past 4 to 5 years than our offense..

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This is gonna be JC's year.

Even if his overall numbers aren't much above average, I find it pretty impressive that he's managed to improve a little bit every year from freshman year of college until now, with what?--seven different systems in eight years or something? Two years in one system, a slightly improved O-line, and hopefully Devin (or Malcolm) and Davis stepping up. I'm more than hopeful. If he doesn't pan out, we let him walk without having to take a cap hit, if he plays us into the playoffs then we finally have another (extremely) high character franchise QB.

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What composure has Ryan shown other than having one of the best rated (for 2008) offensive line keeping him upright so he could throw bomb after bomb to Jenkins/White?

He has not had to overcome tem defficiencies (which is something the JC haters say any good QB should do). Where are all his come from behind wins? His clutch performances? Anything? He a good QB who had the benefit of a GREAT line and a RB who ran for more TD's than he could throw for. If Portis had 17 TD's on the year, we would ave been in the playoffs... and went deep.

I don't want to argue against you here, but if someone can bring up that Jason Campbell was a midseason MVP candidate then it must also be brought up that analysts were pushing for Matt Ryan for MVP at the end of the year. Both were ridiculous. Turner was 2nd in rushing and TDs, plus they have John Abraham on the other side.

Ryan was also the 5th pick so its not like he came out nowhere.

But he certainly had clutch performances. He had the miracle against Chicago. He was key in clinching a playoff spot with an OT drive against the Bucs and had that crazy play leaping over defenders in the end zone against the Vikings.

Those are the type of plays that suggest leadership because the players around you want to fight for you. Now they don't win either of those games without Turner running the ball, but at least Ryan has already won big games in his career. To this point, Campbell hasn't won a single one.

I still have not heard one factual rebuttle in the 4 monthst this whole QB controversy has dragged on. Maybe you could be the first...
Nonsense, Passizle. You are the person who argued that a QB cannot make his offensive line better.
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Footballoutsiders.com ranked him at #16 with Kerry Collins at #15 and Cassell at #17. That's about right, IMO. Collins was a Pro Bowl alternate and Cassell will make 14 million this season mostly because they had far more support than Campbell in 2008.

Jason Campbell is an average starting QB who will probably improve enough to make the Pro Bowl this season because, except for the O line, all signs on this team point upward and there aren't any grade A teams in the NFL these days.

If the opportunity presents itself, I'd replace Jason with a QB with grade A potential. Meanwhile, he's the best we have. So, why sweat it?

I agree with you on this assessment Oldfan.

But what some people on this board don't realize is that

1) there aren't that many grade A QBs around

2) even if you land one it still won't magically fall together unless the other elements of the team are ready WR/OL and then there's the whole chemistry thing.

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-Please don't speak for all those displeased with performance of Jason Campbell Passizle... I can recall debating this subject with you but not a month or two ago and I brought up facts consistently...

-If need be I can bring up the numerous facts against JC

Fine. I understand what you are saying... and I cant remember all debates but one thing that rings true regardless, is "haters" (for lack of a better word) always seem to cherry pick stats to "prove" that JC "sucks" as a QB (which is a huge overstatment).

If we are to compare averages to other "successful" QB's, JC compares fairly to Flacco, Ryan, Rothliesberger, E. Manning. None of these QB's have quick reads, quick release, etc. What they do have is MONSTER talent on one or both sides of the trenches assisting them to victories. What some expect on here is JC to overcome everything... and anything short of performing miracles is not acceptable.

Why do we hold one player to such a high standard and not others?

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I don't want to argue against you here, but if someone can bring up that Jason Campbell was a midseason MVP candidate then it must also be brought up that analysts were pushing for Matt Ryan for MVP at the end of the year. Both were ridiculous. Turner was 2nd in rushing and TDs, plus they have John Abraham on the other side.

Ryan was also the 5th pick so its not like he came out nowhere.

But he certainly had clutch performances. He had the miracle against Chicago. He was key in clinching a playoff spot with an OT drive against the Bucs and had that crazy play leaping over defenders in the end zone against the Vikings.

Those are the type of plays that suggest leadership because the players around you want to fight for you. Now they don't win either of those games without Turner running the ball, but at least Ryan has already won big games in his career. To this point, Campbell hasn't won a single one.

Nonsense, Passizle. You are the person who argued that a QB cannot make his offensive line better.

I dont remeber saying that exactly. What I do think is that an offensive lines protection has MUCH more to do with the talent of the line than the QB's ability to read and release in 1.5 seconds. Many detractors have used this argument to discredit JC and then use the stat that JC has a low YPA.

Well... the laws of physics do not allow a QB to have a high YPA if he has to release the within 1.5 seconds on every play. WR's can only run so fast... and if you can name one the can bullet 20 yards in that time, be my guest.

In the end, a QB's success is 90% of the time, contingent on the level of offensive line play... and not the other way around. You can look up the stats from the past 10 years (since the pass game has become more prolific) and you will see a direct coorelation that shows that successful QB's have low sack averages. There are anomallies (sp) in that figure, but they are very rare comparitivley.

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I dont remeber saying that exactly.
You said it exactly. :silly:
What I do think is that an offensive lines protection has MUCH more to do with the talent of the line than the QB's ability to read and release in 1.5 seconds. Many detractors have used this argument to discredit JC and then use the stat that JC has a low YPA.

Well... the laws of physics do not allow a QB to have a high YPA if he has to release the within 1.5 seconds on every play. WR's can only run so fast...

WR's can run after they catch the ball too. And if Jason was more accurate hitting receivers in stride then his YPA and our receivers YAC would be much higher. (that's supposed to be a staple of the WCO)

Two sides to every story.

In the end, a QB's success is 90% of the time, contingent on the level of offensive line play... and not the other way around. You can look up the stats from the past 10 years (since the pass game has become more prolific) and you will see a direct coorelation that shows that successful QB's have low sack averages. There are anomallies (sp) in that figure, but they are very rare comparitivley.
If you say so, I mean that's just your opinion. That's a general rule of thumb for football but you can't just apply it to every situation.

Our passing offense is 90% dependent on Campbell learning the WCO. The line will not hold up all season.

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passizle:

matt ryan came in as a 100% rookie, and in his first 16 starts took a team with a below average defense to 11-5.

jason campbell sat for an entire year in 05, started half of 06, all of 07 until he got injured, and all of 08, and has still not posted a season as impressive as ryan. even in terms of numbers, ryan outperformed him in his first year.

so think about that. ryan came in out of nowhere, and did more than campbell has done with 3 prior years of experience. that should impress just about everybody.

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You said it exactly. :silly:

WR's can run after they catch the ball too. And if Jason was more accurate hitting receivers in stride then his YPA and our receivers YAC would be much higher. (that's supposed to be a staple of the WCO)

Two sides to every story.

If you say so, I mean that's just your opinion. That's a general rule of thumb for football but you can't just apply it to every situation.

Our passing offense is 90% dependent on Campbell learning the WCO. The line will not hold up all season.

I undoubtedly agree with the highlighted part of your post. I would like to see JC lead receivers more often. But... he can. He has shown that he can and the most contributing factor of that is his 7.6 YPA through weeks 1-8, and his 5.4 YPA through weeks 9-17.

This once again demonstrates how the status of the offensive line coorelates to a QB's performance.

When JC has some resemblance of protection, he performs well and we get wins.

When JC has little to no protection he performs badly and we get losses.

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passizle:

matt ryan came in as a 100% rookie, and in his first 16 starts took a team with a below average defense to 11-5.

jason campbell sat for an entire year in 05, started half of 06, all of 07 until he got injured, and all of 08, and has still not posted a season as impressive as ryan. even in terms of numbers, ryan outperformed him in his first year.

so think about that. ryan came in out of nowhere, and did more than campbell has done with 3 prior years of experience. that should impress just about everybody.

I did not say I was not impressed with Ryan's performance. Hes a good QB. But he also has a better supporting cast... at least they performed better last year than our Skins and put up slightly better stats.

He also was only sacked 17 times.

He also had a RB that put up 17 TD's. Replace that with Portis' TD number and the Atlanta Falcons dont make the playoffs. Sorry bud. Thats a fantasy fact.

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In the end, a QB's success is 90% of the time, contingent on the level of offensive line play... and not the other way around. You can look up the stats from the past 10 years (since the pass game has become more prolific) and you will see a direct coorelation that shows that successful QB's have low sack averages. There are anomallies (sp) in that figure, but they are very rare comparitivley.

I guess your in favor of allowing JC to leave in the off season, spend that money upgrading the offensive line, and letting Colt take charge, I think he's capable of managing the other 10%.:stop:

What you fail to realize, or comprehend is that successful QB's know how to read a defense and find the hot receiver when the pressure is on, allowing them to avoid the sack.

So although there may be a cooralation between sacks, and success, it doesn't mean the QB's have had great offensive lines, most probably had adequate lines, which did not need to hold their blocks nearly as long for their QB's who knew how to deliver a ball with pressure coming.

Case and point, this past super bowl neither QB had a good offensive line!!!!!

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I did not say I was not impressed with Ryan's performance. Hes a good QB. But he also has a better supporting cast... at least they performed better last year than our Skins and put up slightly better stats.

He also was only sacked 17 times.

He also had a RB that put up 17 TD's. Replace that with Portis' TD number and the Atlanta Falcons dont make the playoffs. Sorry bud. Thats a fantasy fact.

No one would have suggested Atlanta's supporting cast was better than ours until last year when Ryan came in, got rid of the ball, and kept the offense on schedule. A high number of sacks we took were on Jason not getting rid of the ball on time. He also avoided a number of sacks, as most QBs do, with his ability to move. In the end, what Ryan showed is a QB who's quick with the ball limits hits.

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I did not say I was not impressed with Ryan's performance. Hes a good QB. But he also has a better supporting cast... at least they performed better last year than our Skins and put up slightly better stats.

He also was only sacked 17 times.

He also had a RB that put up 17 TD's. Replace that with Portis' TD number and the Atlanta Falcons dont make the playoffs. Sorry bud. Thats a fantasy fact.

this is where ill completely disagree. who is his supporting cast? roddy white? i mean cmon. moss has had a better career than white has, and hes shown flashes of being way better than white could. moss is a very good receiver who in my opinion is limited by campbell. remember when brunell was on fire how ridiculous moss was.

and ill agree turner had a better season than portis, but turner had to get to the red zone first, he didnt do it all on his own.

our offensive starters are just as good as the falcons, sans the QB spot.

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No one would have suggested Atlanta's supporting cast was better than ours until last year when Ryan came in, got rid of the ball, and kept the offense on schedule. A high number of sacks we took were on Jason not getting rid of the ball on time. He also avoided a number of sacks, as most QBs do, with his ability to move. In the end, what Ryan showed is a QB who's quick with the ball limits hits.

art commands much more respect around here than i do, so maybe when he says what ive been trying to say about campbell some of you will listen to him instead. art is 100% correct with this post.

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art commands much more respect around here than i do, so maybe when he says what ive been trying to say about campbell some of you will listen to him instead. art is 100% correct with this post.

I command it because I'm not a dick. Ok. I am, but, I'm a fun-loving, adorable dick. And, yes, Blondie, you can add big before it to complete your fantasy.

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I guess your in favor of allowing JC to leave in the off season' date=' spend that money upgrading the offensive line, and letting Colt take charge, I think he's capable of managing the other 10%.:stop:

What you fail to realize, or comprehend is that successful QB's know how to read a defense and find the hot receiver when the pressure is on, allowing them to avoid the sack.

So although there may be a cooralation between sacks, and success, it doesn't mean the QB's have had great offensive lines, most probably had adequate lines, which did not need to hold their blocks nearly as long for their QB's who knew how to deliver a ball with pressure coming.[/quote']

I would agree with you 100% if every single snap was a pressure situation. But thats not the case. So on every snap, the QB does not need to read the defense and make a quick snap toss to get a TD or first down or whatever or else take a sack.

We can refer to my prior post about physics, and time and space. Since it is nearly impossible for a WR to consistantly cover 10 to 15 yards in 1.5 seconds. That means a QB... any QB will need time in the pocket to make big plays. Lets be real here... thats what were are talking about. JC doe not make enough big plays. Thats a fact.

Heres another. JC's big play potential relies on the offensive line. We saw what he can do with adequate time in the pocket. Not minutes hours or days... but a solid 3 - 5 seconds and JC was gold. Not FF gold. but 6-2 gold.

I also think JC needs to improve in areas too. But not the reads. I have seen him make many good reads. Its his touch on the quick outs that bother me. If he were able to hit the hot reads better he would be more succeful.

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No one would have suggested Atlanta's supporting cast was better than ours until last year when Ryan came in, got rid of the ball, and kept the offense on schedule. A high number of sacks we took were on Jason not getting rid of the ball on time. He also avoided a number of sacks, as most QBs do, with his ability to move. In the end, what Ryan showed is a QB who's quick with the ball limits hits.

Well... to be honest Art. Alot of people on this site think we have the best talent in the NFL all the time.

That being said, I disagree with you about Ryans performance. Its not all about the quickness of a release... as I have stated a few times in this very thread.

Ryan made big plays. Big plays take time to develop. That "time" comes from good offensive protection. Thats not Ryan being quick with the ball.

I also think their line performd better than ours last year for multiple reasons. Two of them being youth and health. Something our line was not able to accomplish.

On top of that, that "average" line that Ryan "made" look better also took a backup running back from another team and produce 1700 yards and 17 TD's. I guess next you will be trying to convince me that a RB with quick feet makes his line block, cut and seal better. Sorry Art. I respect your opinion, but I just dont buy what your selling.

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Meanwhile, we'll keep "patiencing" ourselves to 8-8 records. Sorry, I want my team to be better than that.

I thought the article was more about Zorn than Campbell. Holmgren's obviously biased toward Zorn and is trying to throw his support toward Zorn by saying to be patient. In other words, be patient while Zorn fixes JC.

And I can't let this go....it's not that we are bashing Campbell, it's more that we want our team to win. To many of us, winning won't happen with JC no matter the excuses or how much patience we have.

Hail,

H

Spoken like true Cowboy fan....

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Well... to be honest Art. Alot of people on this site think we have the best talent in the NFL all the time.

That being said, I disagree with you about Ryans performance. Its not all about the quickness of a release... as I have stated a few times in this very thread.

Ryan made big plays. Big plays take time to develop. That "time" comes from good offensive protection. Thats not Ryan being quick with the ball.

I also think their line performd better than ours last year for multiple reasons. Two of them being youth and health. Something our line was not able to accomplish.

On top of that, that "average" line that Ryan "made" look better also took a backup running back from another team and produce 1700 yards and 17 TD's. I guess next you will be trying to convince me that a RB with quick feet makes his line block, cut and seal better. Sorry Art. I respect your opinion, but I just dont buy what your selling.

The only fact I see is you trying to ostracize our line to the extent that there nothing more than statues standing around on the field, JC had as much time as either Big Ben, Warner, Ryan, Cassell, ETC. and so on, what he didn't have was all day to throw which is what he actually needs to process what he sees down field.

As for the running game, when a QB has the ability to convert 3rd downs it allows the offense to continue to pound the running game and wear down a defense, which in turn helps to open up the running game, that is none existent with JC at the helm.

Their offensive line played better than ours, of coarse it had nothing to do with decision making by the QB right?

Until JC actually falls on his face and is benched you wont get it, and you probably wont after the fact either, I am tired of the same excuses over and over. So lets just agree that 2 rookie QB's went to to different teams which were both far worse off than our team was the previous season, both had to learn new offenses, with new head coaches, adjust to new players around them, all while trying to adjust to the speed and the nuances of the pro game, their task to succeed was a far tougher job than was JC's, yet they succeeded and JC failed, OK, I guess will call it a draw then.:doh:

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