JLC- Holmgren on Campbell: 'Have Some Patience

[RocketCitySkins]

and i agree that an offense shouldnt take three years. whether its too complex or campbell just cant pick up on it, who knows. but nothing should take that long to learn. and i like zorns plan as well, and if simplifying the offense will make us perform better, im all for it.

I know the Jason bashers (not saying you are one, at least you discuss) want to discount that he has had to learn so many systems. But even Marcus Washington said it was like learning how to type and then having to learn the keyboard all over again. Not only learning the new keyboard but having to forget where all the keys were on the old one. Imagine having to do that 8 times in 9 years.

The most encouraging thing, to me, I've seen come out of mini-camp and OTA's have been the reports that JC looks much more comfortable in his knowledge of Zorn's system going into the second year.

[PROSCOUT]

In practices last year, we heard that Jason was sharp, the ball wasn't hitting the ground. We heard the same thing recently during the minicamp. This tells me that he has his mechanics together when not under pressure. That's a big step forward in my book. He is no longer limited by his sloppy mechanics.

His unknown limits are mental. How quickly will he read and react to defenses? How calm will he be when rushed?

And the answer to your last question is: Campbell does not get rattled under pressure. This much we have learned from watching hiim and from his reactions to all the trade talks. Very cool customer.

However, that is different from your first question which is how well does somebody locate a receiver in a new offense, or how well does an inexperienced QB reads defenses, or even how fast does a QB absorb and understand the plays and routes. Those are intangibles and the answer to that set of questions is this: EVERYBODY LEARNS AT A DIFFERENT RATE.

So if anybody want to compare Jason to Flacco or Cutler or even Manning, then all 3 would have to come into the league at the same time and have the same experiences at the same time, which is not possible. So the only comparison we are left with is how did each one do last season. And after this season we will be left with the exact same comparison.

If Cutler throws 4 interceptions his first 2 games, perhaps its not because he became terrible, perhaps it would be because he changes systems, changed receivers, and changed coaches and cities.

If Campbell throws 2 TD passes against the Giants in week one, its not because he chanted any magic words or because he is motivated due to the Cutler fiasco, it will be because he and his receivers and teammates have been in the same system for multijple years and are now adjusting.

Anyway. Those are my comments about your questions.

[illone]

He's telling us to be patient but I wonder what Holmgren would do if Campbell was his QB.

:hysterical:

[RocketCitySkins]

He's telling us to be patient but I wonder what Holmgren would do if Campbell was his QB.

:hysterical:

There is speculation since Holmgreen is ready to coach again that he may be the Redskins HC next year. His own words could come back to bite him in the butt. If he really thinks JC just needs patience but he wouldn't want him as his qb, Holmgreen will look like a jerk for for saying JC needs patience but not giving him a contract.

[illone]

There is speculation since Holmgreen is ready to coach again that he may be the Redskins HC next year. His own words could come back to bite him in the butt. If he really thinks JC just needs patience but he wouldn't want him as his qb, Holmgreen will look like a jerk for for saying JC needs patience but not giving him a contract.

I doubt MH would have patience with him after this year. He could easily form his opinion based on what JC does in 2009 and show him the door anyways which would make what he said in a candid interview a moot point.

[Vicious]

sorry you cant come up with an explanation for my question either. but then again its much easier to lean on weak excuses and dodge questions with bad attempts at humor than to answer what i asked.

You use absolutely nothing but inductive fallacies to communicate on this board. I could go through them, but it's simply not worth it. You know what you are. You know what you do. You do it on purpose. Yet you act surprised when someone calls you out on it and label them pathetic.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You use absolutely nothing but inductive fallacies to communicate on this board. I could go through them, but it's simply not worth it. You know what you are. You know what you do. You do it on purpose. Yet you act surprised when someone calls you out on it and label them pathetic.

you couldnt go through anything, which is why you dont. you should put me on block if youre so tired of reading my "inductive fallacies" (cute term by the way).

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I just realized that we have had only two winning seasons this decade with one season to go. It is our worst showing since the 1960's.

In the 1970's, we had eight winning seasons.

In the 1980's, we had seven winning seasons.

In the 1990's, we had six winning seasons.

In the 2000's, we are extremely patient.

I've lost mine, so I am going to start demanding excellence. Anybody with me on that?

wow, ive never bothered to look at those numbers. thats an amazing fall from grace.

and im with you on demanding excellence, but that makes me a hater i guess.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I know the Jason bashers (not saying you are one, at least you discuss) want to discount that he has had to learn so many systems. But even Marcus Washington said it was like learning how to type and then having to learn the keyboard all over again. Not only learning the new keyboard but having to forget where all the keys were on the old one. Imagine having to do that 8 times in 9 years.

The most encouraging thing, to me, I've seen come out of mini-camp and OTA's have been the reports that JC looks much more comfortable in his knowledge of Zorn's system going into the second year.

everyone is aware that hes had to learn a bunch of systems, and im sure thats taxing. my issue is that hes never shown flashes of dominance in either one of them. wheres that crazy 400 yard game? wheres that 4 TD performance? wheres that stretch of a few weeks where he just destroyed defenses? theres never been a game where im watching where ive said to myself "holy lord campbell is a beast". in every system he seems to look the same: low TD numbers, low INTs, decent yardage, poor YPA, very conservative. he did that in saunders offense, he does it in zorns offense.

im glad to hear that jason looks good and comfortable in mini camp, but ive heard that before. we heard last year going in to zorns first year that campbell was looking good. we hear it every year. nobody is gonna come out and say "man he looks bad!". it has to translate on the field, and as of today, it hasnt. maybe it will, i hope it does, but as somebody mentioned in another thread: hope is not a strategy.

[Vicious]

you couldnt go through anything, which is why you dont. you should put me on block if youre so tired of reading my "inductive fallacies" (cute term by the way).

It's not a cute term, inductive fallacies are a driving force in misrepresentation and a cancer on logic. They even sway presidential elections. I don't mind reading what you have to say, you have it all wrong. I can recognize it so it does not effect me, hence I don't mind reading it for entertainment purposes. I only have a problem with the fact you are ****ing at someone for calling you out on it. Don't claim he is sad and pathetic because he won't play your game.

[RocketCitySkins]

im glad to hear that jason looks good and comfortable in mini camp, but ive heard that before.

I should have been more specific. I've read several places that JC is going through the reads quicker and getting rid of the ball faster due to being more familiar with the system. Not something we would have read last year. :cool2:

[jrfriedm]

Oh well if Holmgren says so then it must be true.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

It's easy to have patients when it's somebody Else's A**, and someone Else's franchise on the line, which isn't Holmgrens at this point. There is a reason MH left Green Bay, he believed he needed to be in charge of talent evaluation, there was also a reason he was given an ultimatum in Seattle, relinquish personnel decisions or your gone.

What I don't believe that has been taken into account is Zorn's input with Vinny, and Danny on his long term feeling's about JC?

Does anyone think JC would have been on the trading block if Zorn told both Vinny, and Danny that JC was definitely the man for the job? That he had no doubts that JC is going to be a great QB? He apparently couldn't convince them that JC would be better than a college QB with 16 starts under his belt?

Well I think there would be a huge problem within if Zorn really believed in JC as a guy he wants to invest not only the franchise's future, but his own, and the hierarchy decided to get rid of him regardless?

What I take from this situation is Zorn making the best of what he has, and his belief in his ability to teach the QB position that he will make a serviceable QB out of JC, which at some point he just may, but how long, and how much will, and has JC cost us for a serviceable QB "IMO" at best?

[budski]

My patience is over as well with JC. He's been in the league for what 4 years? No matter what the system is or how many he has had to learn he is not getting it done.

[Oldfan]

everyone is aware that hes had to learn a bunch of systems, and im sure thats taxing. my issue is that hes never shown flashes of dominance in either one of them. wheres that crazy 400 yard game? wheres that 4 TD performance? wheres that stretch of a few weeks where he just destroyed defenses? theres never been a game where im watching where ive said to myself "holy lord campbell is a beast". in every system he seems to look the same: low TD numbers, low INTs, decent yardage, poor YPA, very conservative. he did that in saunders offense, he does it in zorns offense.

im glad to hear that jason looks good and comfortable in mini camp, but ive heard that before. we heard last year going in to zorns first year that campbell was looking good. we hear it every year. nobody is gonna come out and say "man he looks bad!". it has to translate on the field, and as of today, it hasnt. maybe it will, i hope it does, but as somebody mentioned in another thread: hope is not a strategy.

In 2007, after seeing Collins in Al's offense, I downgraded Jason from a C to a D. Last year, in preseason, he looked like a different, much better, QB mechanically, so I wiped the slate clean. The accuracy concerns I had about him diminished.

During the season, I thought he played too tentatively. That can come with over-coaching. In Jason's case, he needed a lot of it. I also thought that his good completion percentage lied, Jason's accuracy was not that good in game conditions. He was often "wild in the strike zone" limiting the receiver's YAC. And, half those sacks were his fault.

Footballoutsiders.com ranked him at #16 with Kerry Collins at #15 and Cassell at #17. That's about right, IMO. Collins was a Pro Bowl alternate and Cassell will make 14 million this season mostly because they had far more support than Campbell in 2008.

Jason Campbell is an average starting QB who will probably improve enough to make the Pro Bowl this season because, except for the O line, all signs on this team point upward and there aren't any grade A teams in the NFL these days.

If the opportunity presents itself, I'd replace Jason with a QB with grade A potential. Meanwhile, he's the best we have. So, why sweat it?

[Gregpeck99]

So, why sweat it?

Because he is in a contract year and if he plods along (likely) ... the Skins waist an entire year developing one or both of their true WCO QB candidates.

[ttr77]

I just realized that we have had only two winning seasons this decade with one season to go. It is our worst showing since the 1960's.

In the 1970's, we had eight winning seasons.

In the 1980's, we had seven winning seasons.

In the 1990's, we had six winning seasons.

In the 2000's, we are extremely patient.

I've lost mine, so I am going to start demanding excellence. Anybody with me on that?

Ouch. And great points.

[Passizle]

mcclure, clabo, blaylock all started in 07 and 08. thats 3/5 of the line. all they did is move todd weiner, who started half the season at RT in 07 to LT in 08 when baker went down after 6 weeks. the only real difference was one guard. they didnt do any real major overhauls of infuse the line with tons of youth, they just had a better QB playing with them.

so the falcons took almost the same oline, added a backup running back, a rookie QB, a new offensive system, and ended up with the 6th overall offense in the NFL. this was after one season. no learning curve. no "getting used to the system". no excuses, just results. 6th ranked offense in the first year of the system with everything completely different.

explain that to me. then explain why we cant do that.

arizonas oline sucks, so dont go there with warner. unless youre referring to the rams oline back in the day, i dont remember if it was bad/good.

pennington proved he could play with the jets too, he was just always injured and run out of town. he definitely had a good oline and that helped. but i dont wanna discuss pennington because if its true that he already knew the offense then that would explain his success (although im not sure thats true, if you can prove that id like to see where youve seen that)

lets stick with matt ryan and the falcons for now. explain how they accomplished what they did.

People give far too much credit to Matt Ryan and far too less for the rest of the team. Matt Ryans stats dont cry out "elite quaterback by any means.

Ryan was 265 of 434 for a 61.1 comp%, 3440 yards, 16 TD's, 11 INT's, 17 sacks and a 87.7 QB rating are middle of the road.

Campbell was 315 of 506 for a 62.3 comp%, 3245 yards, 13 TD's, 6 INT's, 38 sacks and a 84.3 QB rating are middle of the road.

Atlanta's line was 5th in sacks allowed (17)

Washington's line was rated 22nd in sacks allowed (38)

So... considering that Matt and Jason have similar numbers and their offensive line does not, how can we consider that Matt "led" his team to the playoffs while Jason "led" his team to the golf course? Its just ignorant to ignore all the facts that are available.

So, in the end, the Falcons were able to do what they did with a tam effort of limiting mistakes. Having the #2 run game helps. Having the #11 ranked defense in PA helps too. Also having the same offensive line not get injured for the entire season helps too. But you can keep thinking that it was the mystical, magical Matt Ryan pill. Dont get me wrong either. Matt Ryan did his part too. He is a good QB and will only get better with time. But much like Flacco, he did not "lead" his team againts all odds to the promised land. He did not have to overcome the teams shortfalls and place them on his shoulders. He did his part, limited his mistakes and took what he as able. Much like our own QB, who has not reached their potential yet.

[brlawson]

Can we say haterz?? Holla at ya boi JC in the heezy!!!

For real though, I think that Campbell will shine now If he doesn't, then we got some work to do. Next years draft will be all offense. A QB R1, OL's and RB's the rest of the way.

[Oldfan]

Because he is in a contract year and if he plods along (likely) ... the Skins waist an entire year developing one or both of their true WCO QB candidates.

And, if he doesn't plod along... improvement is likely this season ...if he gives us a C+ or B performance with a good support package... what then?

[Gregpeck99]

And, if he doesn't plod along... improvement is likely this season ...if he gives us a C+ or B performance with a good support package... what then?

Campbell has to emerge and take the next step up like MRypien did in 1991 in order to get him his extension. I just don't think it will happen ... my "if" is less iffy than your "if."

[myzhi]

People give far too much credit to Matt Ryan and far too less for the rest of the team. Matt Ryans stats dont cry out "elite quaterback by any means.

Ryan was 265 of 434 for a 61.1 comp%, 3440 yards, 16 TD's, 11 INT's, 17 sacks and a 87.7 QB rating are middle of the road.

Campbell was 315 of 506 for a 62.3 comp%, 3245 yards, 13 TD's, 6 INT's, 38 sacks and a 84.3 QB rating are middle of the road.

Atlanta's line was 5th in sacks allowed (17)

Washington's line was rated 22nd in sacks allowed (38)

So... considering that Matt and Jason have similar numbers and their offensive line does not, how can we consider that Matt "led" his team to the playoffs while Jason "led" his team to the golf course? Its just ignorant to ignore all the facts that are available.

So, in the end, the Falcons were able to do what they did with a tam effort of limiting mistakes. Having the #2 run game helps. Having the #11 ranked defense in PA helps too. Also having the same offensive line not get injured for the entire season helps too. But you can keep thinking that it was the mystical, magical Matt Ryan pill. Dont get me wrong either. Matt Ryan did his part too. He is a good QB and will only get better with time. But much like Flacco, he did not "lead" his team againts all odds to the promised land. He did not have to overcome the teams shortfalls and place them on his shoulders. He did his part, limited his mistakes and took what he as able. Much like our own QB, who has not reached their potential yet.

Love how JC lovers selectively choose stats, not like they are even worth bragging about, and try to defend their man. You have to be blind not to see how big a role Matt Ryan had in turning the Falcon franchise around after Vick / Petrino fiasco. Not everything shows up in stats, like leadership, composure and etc. It was amazing he was able to do it in his "rookie" season. Not "3rd," "4th," or "5th" year rookie ES likes to talk about.

Just let me guess, you'll take JC over Matt Ryan?

[Passizle]

Love how JC lovers selectively choose stats, not like they are even worth bragging about, and try to defend their man. You have to be blind not to see how big a role Matt Ryan had in turning the Falcon franchise around after Vick / Petrino fiasco. Not everything shows up in stats, like leadership, composure and etc. It was amazing he was able to do it in his "rookie" season. Not "3rd," "4th," or "5th" year rookie ES likes to talk about.

Just let me guess, you'll take JC over Matt Ryan?

Oh yeah... becuase Turner had NOTHING to do with it... or the New HC... or the 11th ranked defense... it was all Matt Ryan. I forgot.

Selectivley? I compared them head to head. No bones about it. Your the one bring in intangiables like leadership, composure, etc...

How do you measure leadership? For some its calm under pressure. For other, they want to see them get mad and ghet in peoples faces. IMO, I think JC has gret composure and is a sure leader, just by his reactions to the whole Cutler/Sanchez thing.

What composure has Ryan shown other than having one of the best rated (for 2008) offensive line keeping him upright so he could throw bomb after bomb to Jenkins/White?

He has not had to overcome tem defficiencies (which is something the JC haters say any good QB should do). Where are all his come from behind wins? His clutch performances? Anything? He a good QB who had the benefit of a GREAT line and a RB who ran for more TD's than he could throw for. If Portis had 17 TD's on the year, we would ave been in the playoffs... and went deep.

The haters bring the mythical "it" factor and intagiable things to this debate... not the supporters. Everything I wrote is stone cold fact. Deal with it.

I still have not heard one factual rebuttle in the 4 monthst this whole QB controversy has dragged on. Maybe you could be the first...

As for your last question? Yes. Right now, I would.

[mnb123]

As for your last question? Yes. Right now, I would.

lol.

Its so sad that we have become so accustomed to bad play here that people are happy with someone that is barely mediocre.

I guess it is because we have never had a Peyton manning dynasty type QB to relate to.

[ttr77]

Its so sad that we have become so accustomed to bad play here that people are happy with someone that is barely mediocre.

JC is the equivalent of that nice, refreshing pool of water you see in the distance after walking across the desert for a few days. Unfortunately, when you get closer, you realize it was simply a mirage.