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The Trade: Chad Pennington for Patrick Ramsey


Flowtrain

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This is a response to a previous thread in which many posters told me that if offered the trade straight up, they’d take Ramsey over Pennington no questions asked. Mind you, we’re not talking about who will be a better QB 5 years from now, simply which QB you’d rather be starting the season with in 2003.

Originally posted by Larry

If we had the chance to straight aquire Chad, I'd do it. But, he'd be Ramsey's backup. (Untill he loses it.)

Originally posted by AJWatson3

I too would rather have Ramsey and what he has shown after one season, than Pennington and what he has shown after three. A major difference is how they run their teams and what they are expected to do. For the Redskins, Ramsey is the man.

Originally posted by NavyDave

I prefer Ramsey over Pennington because he can stretch the field with the respect defenses will have for his arm and like pennington will benefit from YAC

Originally posted by Skeletor The Invincible

Actually I'd rather have Ramsey too.

I think I understand the rationale for this line of thinking. Why would you want a QB who was #1 in the NFL in QB rating and accuracy when you can have one who was #28 and #30 respectively? Why would you want a QB whose strong leadership willed the first 2-5 team EVER to a division crown and earned the MVP award from his teammates, when you can have a QB who had the proud honor of getting yanked midseason by his coach? Why would you want one of 4 QBs ever to win 3 AFC Player of the Week awards in a season (two coming in critical weeks 16, 17) when you can have a QB who was a busy throwing 2 INTs and 0 TDs v. the Cowboys when he was supposedly hitting his stride? Why would you want a QB with three years of experience (plus playoff experience) when you can have one who played less than half of one season. Why would you want a Rhodes Scholar finalist who apprenticed for years under a QB who ranks 6th all-time in pass attempts when you can have one who learned from Wuerffel and Matthews for a season.

Well, we can go on and on with this fun little game, but I think I’ve had enough. Ramsey may be chock full of potential, but when you’re making the claim that you’d rather have him today, you’ve stripped yourself of the excuse that Ramsey lacks experience. You’re saying you’d want him to start, future growing pains and all, over a QB who has already paid his dues AND proven himself for a season. To me, that makes no sense.

The only tangible element that one can point to where Ramsey has an advantage over Chad is arm-strength, an asset that admittedly may be accentuated in Spurrier’s O. But I have trouble believing that the same fans who watched George throw more INTs for the Skins than TDs are banking on this factor as sole support for PR over CP. Besides, when it comes to Chad, let’s not forget this is the same QB who threw bomb after bomb to Randy Moss at Marshall, had his arm dissected by scouts before being projected as a high first round pick and led the NFL in numerous passing categories, including ranking #2 in yards per attempt. If you’re wondering what happens to a Heisman candidate (as Pennington was) who really lacks arm strength, look no further than Dorsey who was barely drafted in the 7th round.

And before we hear about Ramsey’s disadvantages (holdout, fewer weapons, leaky OL), let’s recognize that these factors boil down to excuses, valid and significant though they may be. It is already known what Pennington can accomplish with offensive weapons and an OL, while it’s simply expected that Ramsey will improve when presented with both. Whether this improvement rises to the level of NFL is an open question.

So remind me again how we reach this conclusion of Ramsey over Chad based on his last 4 games. Is it his lower than 50% completed in 2 of his last 4 games, a strong 4th quarter after being blown out by the Eagles, or the 0 TD and 2 INT finale versus the Cowboys? Perhaps it’s simply the exuberance of this past offseason. I recognize that Ramsey displayed flashes of talent and showed courage playing tough under adverse circumstances. I also recognize that Chad has only succeeded for one year, still has a lot to prove and is not fault-free. Nobody’s saying that Ramsey doesn’t have the potential to be a Pro Bowl QB or to even surpass Chad down the road, but what we’re talking about is a relative comparison with Pennington TODAY. As such, I just don’t see how you can reach the conclusions asserted above.

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All of what you said might be true, but the Jets sure as hell arn't going to make the playoffs next year (in my opinion). If the Skins make it, I would stick with the Ramsey over Pennington argument come hell or high water. Pennington may have the stats, but it will come down to where our teams place at the end of the season.

Solid post nonetheless...I respect fans of other teams who argue points such as yours with facts and reason and remain in the no-spin zone (ie O'Reilly)

Cheers to this post although I hate the Jets and always will....

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This guy's so dumb I'm surprised he remembers to breathe.

The reason Skins fans like Ramsey is because hes... a Skin. Ask them if they'd rather have lots of proven QBs, and we'll still show loyalty to Ramsey. Are you too screaming stupid to see that?

But i guess if I was a fan of the second-best team in New Jersey (who just got robbed blind by the skins and then started crying like a girl who lost her virginity to a guy who won't even return her calls), I'd spend my time on a skins board too.

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Flow,

I'm not sure you're necessarily being persuasive focusing on the production of a true rookie QB compared to a three-year player. Ramsey was a true rookie. Not only that, but he missed substantial time in camp. Not only that but he got VERY few snaps with the first unit on the whole, and not any consistency until later in the year with that unit.

What Ramsey will be is yet unknown. Though Pennington had a very strong season for the Jets, what HE may be is actually unknown as well. You certainly have lesser talent around him on offense than you had a year ago. Your special teams aren't as good as last year. More pressure will be put on Pennington to lead the team. And, lest we forget, Pennington was not just a QB who led the first 2-5 team ever to an overwhelming 9-7 division crown, but, he was the QB who contributed immensely to that 2-5 start.

Remember that Testaverde was essentially 1-2 as your starter, since though he started the fourth game against Jacksonville, he was hurt so early and Pennington played the great majority of the game. Pennington was then, including Jacksonville, 1-3 as the primary QB before the Jets found a splendid groove and really improved as a team.

While no one would dispute that Pennington had a very nice year as a player, what no one would dispute similarly is that Ramsey was immensely superior to Pennington as an NFL rookie. In fact, he was better than any other NFL rookie QB last year. Or, the year before. Or, the year before. Yet, he still was an NFL rookie. He still struggled and got confused. He still made poor plays and he still played like a rookie.

And a straight comparison between he and Pennington is difficult to make because Pennington was protected as a bench player. What we know is that after a couple of seasons of seasoning Pennington came on and did very well. Did the Raiders expose his tremendously weak arm? I don't know. Perhaps that was just an off day for Chad.

But, a tremendously weak-armed QB will have off days from time to time. He had a wonderful completion percentage, and therefore, had a great yards per attempt average, but that doesn't translate into arm strength Flow and you know it.

Ramsey as a rookie was almost two yards better than Pennington in yards per completion. Simply having Ramsey in the lineup for the 6.5 games he was in the lineup moved the Redskins from a struggling offense to No. 8 in terms of yardage gained. If you overlook the cold weather bomb against Green Bay in which Ramsey was clearly not able to play -- and hopefully he improves, because even against Houston he showed problems in weather and that was just rain -- the Skins were No. 3 overall in his 5.5 games in.

Not only is the arm strength difference between the two players incredibly tilted in Ramsey's favor, but despite being a rookie and not knowing the offense, teams were scared to death of Ramsey's arm and just having him in the game, even struggling, made the offense more productive because that single shining aspect of play altered defensive plans because they couldn't approach the Redskins the same way knowing Ramsey could complete throws Matthews and Wuerffel couldn't. And that Pennington can't.

You seem to think you're on to something in the final game where Ramsey threw two interceptions -- one off the hands of a receiver and the other just a terrible throw -- as a sign he wasn't getting better. The Dallas game is an interesting one to consider though because Ramsey was 17 of 31 with what was clearly eight dropped balls. The Redskins were actually pretty good last year at not dropping balls, but, not in that closing game.

Drives were stalled by receivers allowing balls to be stripped from them. Ramsey also fumbled once, though, a review of that play shows his arm was going forward and he never tucked the ball so it should have been an incomplete pass, but, I digress. The Redskins as a team had an incredible ability to self-destruct. From stupid penalties to turnovers during POSITIVE plays where we'd gain 25 yards on a pass only to have the ball stripped, or we'd be waltzing into the end zone on a 40-yard-run only to get lazy, etc., the Redskins single biggest problem was their own inability to remain focused on their jobs and that's something Spurrier will have to improve if the Redskins are really going to improve.

Yet, despite that the Skins weren't far behind the Jets despite positional advantages you enjoyed in the return game, at receiver, on the offensive line and at kicker that you NO longer enjoy and despite the greatly weaker schedule you enjoyed.

I know I'd take Ramsey's rookie year over Pennington's. And I know the dimension of his arm strength is not something you get from Pennington. And, I'd take Ramsey's last game over Pennington's last game. I too would rather take what Ramsey may bring this year than to insert Pennington in the same offense right now. But, that's less a leap than you think and more practical than you may realize. Afterall, if he fails and isn't the QB we hope, Pennington is a restricted free agent after the season so we can always address the swap then :).

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I think Ramsey's stats were skewed by 2 hail mary INTs and a bunch of drops (6 maybe) in that finale.

Even so, if you go purely on stats - Pennington is a no-brainer.

But there is something to be said for him sitting out those first 2 seasons and learning the offense. I suppose if they had the same tenure in the league, a fair comparison could be made. But they don't.

You also have to factor in the offenses. Pennington was born for the WCO. He really does look like a young Joe Montana.

It remains to be seen what kind of fit Ramsey is in the Fun N Gun. But the early results were promising when you take into account a Marty-Ball supporting cast and a rookie learning curve. Ramsey has a lot of Marino like qualities. But Phil Simms may be a fairer comparison.

In short, it's too early to tell. Obviously, even a Redksin fan can admit that if your team is running the WCO - Pennington is your guy. But we're not. So let's give Spurrier, Ramsey, and co. a chance to show what they can do before we start talking about who you'd/we'd rather have.

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I am a Pennington fan. I think you guys have a future star. However I would not trade Ramsey for Pennington. Pennington is not a ideal qb for our system. While he may be perfect for the WCO, he is far from perfect to play in the Fun and Gun. We look to go deep first and than short( you just do not see that with other teams) and we all know Pennington has a sub par arm in terms of arm strength.

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Hey.... I like Pennington, liked him coming out of college, and think he'll be a top five QB in the league for the next 8-10 years. I love his grit, his intelligence, and sheer will to win. Reminds me of another QB with rather average measurables but a Lionheart, Joe Montanna.

With that said.... I think Ramsey best fits our system because of his arm strength. Spurrier's system is predicated on looking downfield first, hitting the deep man on plays of longer progression. Ramsey can get the ball there in a hurry, capitalizing on misaligned defense or busted coverage, where Pennington doesn't have the cannon to wing it. Most of Pennington's big plays downfield were busted plays, where he bought time and then found a man left uncovered downfield.

Finally, I think last year showed Ramsey's courage and poise.... not to mention his cannon arm. Also, Ramsey exhibited a leadership few have seen from a rookie. In five years, I'm sure both Pennington and Ramsey will be the marquee QBs in the league.... top five for sure.

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all these statements why,why,why.WHY don't u admit, since we basically robbed u of your best talent(i know u still have chad,abraham & some over the hill HOF runningback),that your coming out of the closet & joining the B&G(which u would look better in).if not then, as i've stated in a previous thread,WHY don't u go away to your own house(the ganggreen).or is it no fun over there????WHY...............hailredskins

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I saw one Jets game last year. The playoff loss versus the Raiders. I dunno if it was just a bad game or Pennington was injured, but the guys is Danny Wuerffel-esque. Put them in matching uniforms, throw a glove on Pennington and you couldn't tell their throws apart.

He had a good season, but he's limp wristed. Losing your top guy is going to hurt more than you think. Conway can catch the long balls that Coles did, what Conway doesn't do as well is make the tough catch.

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I find the comparison flattering, that you would compare a 3 year QB who brought his team to the play-offs; to our QB coming off his rookie season.

That being said I think you'll find any 3rd year QB worth his weight would be preferable to any first year QB. My bet is Gus Frerotte in his 3rd year was probably outperfoming Troy Aikman, Joe Montana & John Elway in their first years. I'm not sure I find it particularly telling, though.

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Originally posted by DeathByLinebacker

Coles made Pennington. :)

Now Ramsey has him.

AMEN...i think that coles did make pennington's job a lot easier. don't get me wrong, i think that chad p. is going to be one hell of a quarterback, but ramsey's been working his tail off at the office trying to become the next redskins superstar quarterback. give him another year, and he'll be there, but i think he'll get the skins to the playoffs this year.

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Originally posted by Art

And, lest we forget, Pennington was not just a QB who led the first 2-5 team ever to an overwhelming 9-7 division crown, but, he was the QB who contributed immensely to that 2-5 start. Remember that Testaverde was essentially 1-2 as your starter, since though he started the fourth game against Jacksonville, he was hurt so early and Pennington played the great majority of the game. Pennington was then, including Jacksonville, 1-3 as the primary QB before the Jets found a splendid groove and really improved as a team.

I’m not sure I agree that Pennington was an “immense contributor” to the Jets poor start. Most would point to Curtis’ ankle, terrible OL play and 6 new starters on D instead. Chad actually played very well over that stretch, completing over 73% and posting an average QB rating of 103. In Jax, he was called up unexpectedly in his first real game action ever, in KC, Chad put the team in front in the 4th before the D allowed a last minute game-winning drive, and in Cleveland, a game-tying FG was blocked. Although there were many contributors to the slow start (and the fans and NY press were sure to name them all), I never heard Chad’s name mentioned once in this regard.

While no one would dispute that Pennington had a very nice year as a player, what no one would dispute similarly is that Ramsey was immensely superior to Pennington as an NFL rookie.

Time to mention (with tongue firmly planted in cheek) that 50% of Pennington’s rookie completions resulted in a TD versus 4% for Ramsey! Since Pennington was drafted with no intention of starting (and only completed 2 passes), we’re obviously forced to throw his season out. Thus I’m not sure what relevance, if any, the statement has.

But, a tremendously weak-armed QB will have off days from time to time. He had a wonderful completion percentage, and therefore, had a great yards per attempt average, but that doesn't translate into arm strength Flow and you know it.

Perhaps arm strength isn’t entirely translated in YPA. So where will we find the liabilities of a “tremendously weak-armed QB” reflected in the stats? It’s got to be exposed in INT%, where speedy corners can break on wobbly passes and pick them off? Pennington’s 6 INTs on 399 attempts ranked him 2nd in the NFL (actually, a remarkable 3 INTs if you remove the Oakland Hail Mary, a deflection off Becht’s hands and a wrong route by Moss). Surely, a horribly limp-armed QB would have a low completion % as DBs routinely bat down passes or quick WRs can’t be hit in stride. Here, we know Pennington led the league. What the inability to throw downfield leading to a paltry yards per completion? Favre trailed Pennington in this category.

No, there’s no real statistical measure for arm strength other than perhaps a radar gun. But IMO, a QB indicted as being “tremendously weak-armed QB” may convincingly dispel this notion by simply pointing to his ability to consistently shred secondaries while moving his team into the endzone and winning games. My point is not that Chad is blessed with a rifle that will break his WR’s thumbs; it’s that whatever he does have is more than sufficient to get the job done effectively.

Is pure cannon arm-strength akin to a NBA player’s ability to dunk? It doesn’t show up in the stats, it excites and awes the crowd and it doesn’t directly translate into the player’s ability to effectively score? Well, that’s probably an overstatement – I realize that it does have some degree of value, but as I indicate in my post below, I’m not entirely sold on the fact that it’s an absolutely critical element of the Fun ‘N Gun.

Yet, despite that the Skins weren't far behind the Jets despite positional advantages you enjoyed in the return game, at receiver, on the offensive line and at kicker that you NO longer enjoy and despite the greatly weaker schedule you enjoyed.

I know that you and I have been down this road before, but I still stand by my position that overall records don’t fully reflect the differential between the two teams. IMO, the gap is more than marginal between a team that finished the second half of the season 3-5 and missed the playoffs and one that finished 6-2 and won its division and a playoff game. This differential was narrowed in the offseason, but by how much remains to be seen.

I know I'd take Ramsey's rookie year over Pennington's. And I know the dimension of his arm strength is not something you get from Pennington. And, I'd take Ramsey's last game over Pennington's last game. I too would rather take what Ramsey may bring this year than to insert Pennington in the same offense right now. But, that's less a leap than you think and more practical than you may realize. Afterall, if he fails and isn't the QB we hope, Pennington is a restricted free agent after the season so we can always address the swap then.

I might take Ryan Leaf’s rookie season over Chad’s non-season, Leaf’s last game over Chad’s last game v. Oakland and Leaf’s arm-strength over Chad’s as well. I’m not sure what that means though. BTW, don’t titillate yourself too much with the thought of acquiring #10 as a RFA; he’s signed through 2004 and would become a UFA in 2005 if he’s not yet extended. Hey, I respect the unbridled optimism that leads you to conclude that, despite his experience and breakout season last year, Pennington would be less likely find success on the Skins in 2003 than the unproven Ramsey. I’m just not convinced that deep down you actually believe it. But when the success of the Skins, Snyder’s 3-year plan and Spurrier’s novel offensive system are all so vitally dependant upon their young and inexperienced QB, blind faith may be the most comforting approach for a fan. That, I can buy.

I’m looking forward to seeing how your Boy Wonder performs under the bright lights in the national spotlight of an NFL opener. Will that arm strength and courage under fire be enough to get him through the night – or will Chad’s brilliant display have you rethinking your response in this thread? 9/4/3 can’t come soon enough.

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Originally posted by luckydevi

I am a Pennington fan. I think you guys have a future star. However I would not trade Ramsey for Pennington. Pennington is not a ideal qb for our system. While he may be perfect for the WCO, he is far from perfect to play in the Fun and Gun. We look to go deep first and than short( you just do not see that with other teams) and we all know Pennington has a sub par arm in terms of arm strength.

Originally posted by Cskin

With that said.... I think Ramsey best fits our system because of his arm strength. Spurrier's system is predicated on looking downfield first, hitting the deep man on plays of longer progression. Ramsey can get the ball there in a hurry, capitalizing on misaligned defense or busted coverage, where Pennington doesn't have the cannon to wing it.

I conceded that arm-strength is likely valued more in the Fun ‘N Gun than in the WCO. However, provided that one’s arm-strength is not a liability (see my post to Art above), then how important is it to have a true cannon in Spurrier’s system? I think this is a fair question to ask in light of the fact that the Fun ‘N Gun at it’s absolute finest was run by weak-armed QB in Danny Wuerfful whom Spurrier called the “greatest QB in the history of college football.” If a rocket arm were so critical to the system’s success, how could Wuerfful perfect it and win 4 conference titles and the National Championship – surely the Fun N Gun must incorporate some other fundamental QBing elements as well?

I got it --- arm strength only matters when we’re implementing the Fun ‘N Gun against NFL defenses. And this conclusion is reached based upon the many strong-armed NFL QBs that have successfully used Spurrier’s system in the NFL…..ummm….wait a second. Anyway, I don’t want to overstate my position, because I do recognize that a system that looks deep first necessarily needs a QB that can deliver the ball there (or at least threaten to do so). But ultimately, what will always be most important, regardless of the offensive system, is not arm-strength, but rather a QB’s ability to accurately put the ball on his WR’s numbers on time and NOT make mental mistakes against complicated and dynamic defensive schemes. Until Ramsey actually proves otherwise, IMO you’d have to give the nod to the QB that is much further along in proving he's capable of performing these key skills. Fun ‘N Gun or not.

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Originally posted by Art

Flow,

What Ramsey will be is yet unknown. Though Pennington had a very strong season for the Jets, what HE may be is actually unknown as well. You certainly have lesser talent around him on offense than you had a year ago. Your special teams aren't as good as last year. More pressure will be put on Pennington to lead the team. And, lest we forget, Pennington was not just a QB who led the first 2-5 team ever to an overwhelming 9-7 division crown, but, he was the QB who contributed immensely to that 2-5 start.

Remember that Testaverde was essentially 1-2 as your starter, since though he started the fourth game against Jacksonville, he was hurt so early and Pennington played the great majority of the game. Pennington was then, including Jacksonville, 1-3 as the primary QB before the Jets found a splendid groove and really improved as a team.

Art, these comments show me you know nothing about the Jets other than what you watched on NFL2Nite.

The Jets were a complete mess when Chad took over the team. They might have been the worst team in the league at that point in the season. Things were so bad, Jet fans were just hoping the team would be competitive, I had a feeling we'd get bombed in Jax and we did!!!!

Chad was the only glimmer of hope out of the Jacksonville game, he threw a bad int. to start the 2nd half but he showed enough in that game to get the starting job. Pretty impressive considering we were without Santana Moss (injured) and Wayne Chrebet (missed most of the Jax game afer getting injured early in the game.)

Vinny Testaverde was/is BELOVED by the veterans/players in the locker room. Curtis Martin walked out when Herm broke the news to the team that Chad was the new starter.

Chad had to win the team over. There were also whispers that Chad was a bust, yes, many people were calling him a bust before he ever got any significant amount of playing time.

This is what Chad faced when he took over the team last year. Whatever extra "pressure" Chad faces in 2003, pales in comparison to what he faced last year.

Pennington is the real deal, make no mistake about it. In 2003, Chad will eliminate all the remaining doubters.

I won't get into the Pennington-Ramsey debate. I haven't watched enough of Ramsey to form an opinion of him.

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Chad will never have Favre's arm but maybe he's been working on his arm strength a little bit... this was in Jets Confidential last week:

'Anyone who wonders about Chad Pennington's arm strength should have seen the rocket he launched to Jon Carter 55 yards down field for a touchdown.'

Also from JC:

'Santana Moss looked great in practice. He made a nice diving catch, and is just exuding confidence. He looks like he is poised for a breakout year. He also looked great on a double reverse. With Laveranues Coles gone, look for Moss to be their main threat on reverses.'

Will Santana Moss have us asking 'Laveranues Who?' at the end of the year? ;)

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Originally posted by ganggreen76

Will Santana Moss have us asking 'Laveranues Who?' at the end of the year? ;)

You have to hope so. Could be fun to watch. :)

This whole Pennington vs. Ramsey thing seems silly to me ... but that's fine. Makes for some interesting back and forth. Still, you must keep in mind that you're comparing a guy who learned for a couple of years and worked himself in vs. a guy who was" thrown into the fire" for a couple of games in the early-mid season and then finished out the year for a few games having never worked much with the offense. No Training Camp experience. Nothing to build on.

From what I can see Pennington has proven he can play at a high level in this league over a period of more than just a few games. That's key for a QB. Ramsey has yet to prove that ... though we have big hopes that he will do so this year. If you want to win games RIGHT NOW you have to take Pennington. If you want your QB for the future you don't have enough to go on with Ramsey to make an educated choice.

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LOL, what a load!

Let's see what Chad does when his O-Line is dissolving around him every down. In fact, let's stay if he can stay healthy. Ramsey's grit, determination, and as we hope we'll soon see, aptitude for the system will hopefully give him a very good showing against your pal, Chad, this year.

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Originally posted by Flowtrain

This is a response to a previous thread in which many posters told me that if offered the trade straight up, they’d take Ramsey over Pennington no questions asked. Mind you, we’re not talking about who will be a better QB 5 years from now, simply which QB you’d rather be starting the season with in 2003.

Flow, if you want to make this a fair argument come back in 2 years. After Ramsey's third year, then we can talk. He was a rookie last year with a terrible offensive line and a brand new coach. Even though he had all that against him, he didn't do to bad.

The one thing I like about Ramsey more than Chad is his poise and ability to stay behind a failing offensive line. Ramsey is bigger than Chad and can take more licks, he had to last year.

I think both QB's will be great in the future, however I am holding out my breath for Chad so far. Funny how going into last year everyone in NY thought he was a bust and you guys would have to draft another qb. I still think Coles and Martin are a big reason why he was so good last year, but we will see. This year it is all on his soldiers, since Martin is starting to show his age, we will see.

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Flo, dearie, why do you care?

You asked whether Redskin fans would go for a Ramsey-for-Pennington swap. The answer was nearly a unanimous NO. Flap yer gums until you're blue in the face, its still NO. But but but Chad, Chad, he's so great, he's my stallion, you Redskin fans have to like him, you just have to!

We do like Pennington, but given the choice we'll take Ramsey. We have our reasons. But why do you care?

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Originally posted by JimboDaMan

Flo, dearie, why do you care?

You asked whether Redskin fans would go for a Ramsey-for-Pennington swap. The answer was nearly a unanimous NO. Flap yer gums until you're blue in the face, its still NO. But but but Chad, Chad, he's so great, he's my stallion, you Redskin fans have to like him, you just have to!

We do like Pennington, but given the choice we'll take Ramsey. We have our reasons. But why do you care?

I think I just heard the sound of a hammer hitting the nail on the head.:thumbsup:

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No offense to all of you Ramesy marks....but the bottom line to this whole discussion is this: Ramsey very well may be a great QB one day...but to say he is better than Pennington and bash Pennington is a bit ridiculous. Sure, we have only had a year to evaluate Pennington, but from what we saw in that one year, sans the Raider game, he is a pretty darn good QB. And dont give me this crap about all of these weapons he had around him. He had solid pass protection, but lets face it, Coles is overrated and C. Martin was running on two bad wheels

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Pennington had consecutive years in the same offense as his teammates while the skins were learning a new offense and Ramsey as a rookie was learning on the fly and did quite well.

Skins have Coles now to compliment Gardner and will problably keep six receivers that have some experience in the fun and gun and with better pass protectionthan last year the odds are very good that Ramsey will have a successful season.

I still like to compare Ramseys 3rd yr to penningtons but I'm optimistic that with both QBs healthy and with their current weapons that the edge will lean toward the B & G

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