I hate you. Don't hate me back. Understand me.

[fansince62]

ASF....nice catch...you gave me pause to laugh for other than the usual reasons!!!!!

now perhaps....you will stop and consider...."the other side of the story"....or is that asking too much? the history in that part of the world goes back well before the neat little sequence of events you/Yusuf isolated. might as well review the full 2000 years plus!

either way....I don't much care what train of events led up to the present...I reject the implicit assertion that such knowledge could be used to turn the course of events. I see an implacable enemy that has an atavistic agenda. An enemy that isn't interested in any negotiation or democracy. An enemy that only knows how to kill rather indiscriminantly. they have had their chances. eventually, more horror than they can imagine will be visited upon them. the clock is ticking.

you're damn right I ordered the code red!

[TheKurp]

Yes I do Glenn. The question is, do you?

In today's paper there are two articles about barbaric acts perpetrated by Americans against ethnic and religious persons.

You're apparently bent out of shape because of my implication that these acts are representative of Americans. Well, you have good cause to respond by asking whether I understand the meaning of "order of magnitude".

Now, do me a favor. Go back and read your original post. Your words do not, in any shape or form, imply that barbaric acts in the Middle East are committed by the minority of Muslims. You identify the group as Middle Eastern Muslims.

Has the light turned on yet?

[Glenn X]

Kurp, how about you go back and read my prior post. Ya know, the one containing the following links:

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/opinion/other2003/fundies_future_2003.shtml

http://www.meforum.org/article/530

http://www.arabia.com/newsfeed/article/english/0,14183,395732,00.html

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-10/16/article13.shtml

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01202

If you want to post articles detailing individual examples of violent criminal acts by Americans, go right ahead. I can play that game, too. I can go and find many, many articles detailing individual examples of Palestinian terrorists blowing themselves up inside of Israeli nightclubs, pizzerias, buses, etc.

It's not the individual examples so much as it is what those individual examples add up to. Is that final sum something of significance or not? That's what I want to know.

Don't you?

What do you want me to say, Kurp? That all human beings have the potential within them for great inhumanity? Fine. All human beings have the potential within them for great inhumanity.

What I'm more interested in is those human beings who actually act on that inhuman potential and bring it into stark, bloody, horrifying reality. I'm interested in what makes them tick. I'm interested in what makes those who champion them tick.

Perhaps you're not. Perhaps you're the kind of person who said after the bombing of Oklahoma City's Murrah Federal Building: "Hey, let's not jump the gun here and paint all Militia Movement types as nuts. It was only a couple of guys affiliated with this stuff who went out and acted like terrorists, after all."

But I'm less sanguine on "this stuff," Kurp. In fact, I think it's perfectly reasonable to dig into the histories of people like Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Mohammed Atta, Satam Al-Suqami, Waleed Al-Shehri, Wael Al-Shehri, Abdulaziz Al-Omari, Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Ahmed Al-Ghamdi, Hamza Saleh Al-Ghamdi, Mohand Al-Shehri, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al-Haznawi, Ahmed Abdullah Al-Nami, Ziad Samir Jarrah, Khalid Al-Midhar, Nawaf Al-Hamzi, Salem Al-Hamzi, Majed Moqed, Hani Hasan Hanjour, and ask: "What was it about these people that made them do what they did? Was it something in their childhoods? Was it something in their belief systems? What?"

Where you and I part company is on the issue of making a judgment call with regard to the magnitude of whatever it was that compelled these individuals to do what they did vis-à-vis the larger culture from which these individuals sprang.

For example, after looking into the histories of McVeigh and Nichols, it's clear that these two men fell in with a group of nutty Militia Movement types who convinced McVeigh and Nichols of the righteousness of hating their own government and the greatness of the idea that their government needed to be annihilated. Thankfully, however, such opinions are not widely held across the U.S. Such views are not even held by a sizable minority.

And after looking into the histories of Atta, Al-Suqami, Al-Shehri, et al., it's clear that these men fell in with various groups of nutty Islamic Fundamentalists (and, finally, the Islamic terror organization known as Al Qaeda) which convinced these men of the righteousness of hating the West, America, and "the infidels" and the greatness of the idea that the West, America, and "the infidels" needed to be annihilated. Unfortunately, however, such beliefs are not confined to just a small, largely insular group of folks within the larger framework of the Middle East and the so-called Islamic World. No, sadly, the idea of annihilating anything or anyone deemed to be "un-Islamic" is very much en vogue there.

Kurp, you simply refuse to acknowledge this situation (seemingly wanting to believe that Americans and American culture are just as broadly and fundamentally hate-filled as "anyone or anybody else's"), and readily dismiss as "bigoted" anyone who will make this acknowledgment.

From where you're sitting, I'm a hater.

And from where I'm sitting, you're an ostrich.

[TheKurp]

GlennX wrote:

From where you're sitting, I'm a hater. And from where I'm sitting, you're an ostrich.

On one hand I feel as though I'm unable to drive the point home with you, but on the other hand, in reading your subsequent posts I've discovered that you're steering in the right direction.

I took umbrage with ASF when he spoke unflatteringly of Mexicans as a group. NavyDave, who I believe is black, made a sweeping statement about the blind voting habits of blacks. I also found that objectionable. And now you, in your original post, lumped all Middle Eastern Muslims together in categorizing them as violent and barbaric.

I'm an ostrich? There are good people in the world. Because they're inclusive of a group that encompasses those that perpetrate evil, regardless of the numbers, does not make it right to sweep them into a derogatory generalization. That my friend, is the definition of bigotry. An ostrich would be one who fails to acknowledge that.

Now with that said, in your subsequent posts you've narrowed the scope of Middle Eastern Muslims to those that have committed acts of violence and terror. Had you done that in your original post we would not be having this contentious tete-a-tete.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a hater. It might surprise you to learn that I am aware of my own bigotry. I think any person who denies being a bigot is a liar. The difference from where I sit lies in awareness and how one acts on their bigotry. You may feel, as ASF did, that because a significant number of people share a common negative trait, that it's okay to paint the entire group with one broad stroke. And while we may all subconsciouly find ourselves doing that, it's not morally acceptable to do it consciously. No more right than it is for Islamists to hate all Americans.

And with that, I have nothing further to add concerning your original post or the ones that followed in that vein.

[fansince62]

Kurp....while these fine distinctions may be psychologically reassuring.....the ultimate arbiter is "just the facts"......what have the Middle Eastern cultures done to secure the peace over the last 50 years? Where are the incipient (let alone prolonged) protests against the immoral and inhuman violence practiced by ME terrorists? Where are the groundswells of revolution for democracy and human rights - for everyone? Nowhere. Now you and ASF can rationalize all you want about undue and corrupting American influences or Zionist provocations or property usurpation ....but the fact remains that that part of the world can not and has not generated leadership that transcends the political/historical chains and leaps forward. Why is that? Could it be, aside from the tribalism that so dominates, that it is not in the interests of the religious elements?

[Prosperity]

Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel and right now Iran is having a movement toward democracy, although Arabs are too worried about Israel to try to get democracy in there countries

[Glenn X]

Originally posted by TheKurp

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a hater. It might surprise you to learn that I am aware of my own bigotry. I think any person who denies being a bigot is a liar.

To an extent, I agree with this. Certainly there is a difference between the level of this brand of bias in your average man or woman "on the street" and the kinds of folks who fall in with the pathetic, addled remnants of the KKK or flock to the ranks of some international terrorist organization, but I certainly get your meaning. Yes, to a degree, every single one of us is biased -- ethnically, religiously, sexually, etc. What's most important is not these biases themselves, but rather our willingness to acknowledge them and try to keep them in check.

Having said that, though, I don't think that the use of generalizations themselves is a bad or bigoted thing, especially when the group one is talking about is so broadly suffused with whatever trait it is that is being highlighted -- in this case, Muslim extremism in the Islamic World.

I don't see this kind of generalizing as an attack on, say, the Arab race because, in my view, we're all of the same race anyway: the human race. That may sound trite, but that's the way I look at it. There's nothing inherently (read: genetically) "wrong" with Arabs or any other racial/ethnic group of humans that "makes them the way they are." We all bleed the same blood. We are all theoretically capable of doing the same stuff.

However, the issue of culture, which is more transmutable and evanescent in the grand human scheme of things, is worthy of inquiry here, in my view. For example, I think it's worth asking, "Why is it that so many suicide bomber terrorists come from the culture of the Islamic World?"

To be clear, I don't think all Arab Muslims have within their hearts the goal of becoming terrorists or championing those who do become terrorists.

I tend to agree with Bernie Goldberg, who likens the current situation in the Islamic World to that which once existed in the American South. As Goldberg points out, during the 1960s, for instance, it's not that every white person in the South was a card-carrying member of the KKK, because they weren't. However, what was the case was that most whites were simply apathetic towards or too scared to speak out about the sh*t the KKK and other white supremacist organizations were doing. Similarly, most Muslims in the Islamic World are not card-carrying members of Al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, Goldberg acknowledges, but, he argues, far too many are either apathetic towards or too scared to speak out about what Al Qaeda and other extremist groups are doing.

It's this mix of apathy and fear more than anything else that allows terrorists, whether of the white supremacist or Islamic Fundamentalist variety, to flourish.

[stratoman]

Originally posted by fansince62

you're damn right I ordered the code red!

:lol:

[Art]

Just a reminder. The call to understand has been going on for a while now.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Art

Just a reminder. The call to understand has been going on for a while now.

The calls been there the understanding hasn't . If you understand why people hate you, hopefully you will be wise wnough not to create more hate then need be.

We hear all the time from those you support that they hate our freedom for example. In reality of course they hate us because of all the **** we did in the middle east. If we admitted and accepted that we would be less likely to repeat that stupidity in the future and thus not pass on a new era of terror to future generations by ****ting all over other poorer nations that will with out doubt one day have much easier access to nuclear arms.

I'm not saying understanding can stop the war on terror now. That's retarded, the hearts hardened against us can only be softened by a bullet at this point. But let's not create masses of enemies if we can avoid it, I think that's reasonable.

But hey Art we can always try your moral approach which is can basically be summed up to "hey we are stonger so screw them" followed by a series of grunts and ass scratching.

[Ghost of]

Destino

That's a dumb argument. Sorry, only a fool believes that they "hate us" because of what we did in the MIddle East.

CAn I ask what a poor Filipino Catholic did in the MIddle East to deserve 1) Getting their heads cut off by Moros 2) Getting raped by Saudi bosses

What did Kashmiri Hindus do in the MIddle East to deserve getting decapitated?

And the one that REALLY MAKES ME ANGRY--what did black Christians and animists do in the Sudan to warrant being mutilated, murdered, starved and ENSLAVED by Muslims.

Sorry, this "understand" crap is just that. Did Communists hate us because of something we did, or because we are ideologically opposed?

Answer me what the Dinkas did in the Middle East, considering they're so powerful.

Or what Nigerian Christians being burned in churches have to do with the Middle East.

GOD, is there no end to morons on this board?

[Art]

Destino,

The understanding is perfectly clear.

The enemy we're fighting wants their women wrapped in bags and excluded from the process. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting wants Jews eradicated. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting is the same enemy in one side of every area of conflict in the world at this point. There may be other different sides, but ONE side is always Muslim. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting believes it's appropriate to kill innocent civilians as the primary target of operations. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting so fears freedom where the majority may not vote in a strict theocracy, that they rise up to fight that freedom. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting hates our culture and how it intrudes on their pristine Dark Ages beliefs. We understand and reject that.

The enemy we're fighting, fights for the sheer desire to kill, not to lead, or reform or improve. Simply to kill. We understand and reject that.

As a nation, we have saved the world from the dangers of the greatest threats the world has ever known. We will save the world from the fundamentalism here that is completely understood and all agree has no place in a civilized society.

And, the call to understand should work in our favor. We're the most free, most powerful country in the history of the world. We're obviously doing something right. They should understand that.

[BG]

Originally posted by Destino

The calls been there the understanding hasn't . If you understand why people hate you, hopefully you will be wise wnough not to create more hate then need be.

Destino that is is retarded. It may be wise in therms of pacifism, but a nation cannot be pacifist. It is not our countries responsibility to make sure no one hates us. Sure there are certain things you don't do:- don't play genocide (which they want to on us), don't kill for the sake of killing and don't arbitrarily take over another country. We have not done any one of those things.

We hear all the time from those you support that they hate our freedom for example. In reality of course they hate us because of all the **** we did in the middle east. If we admitted and accepted that we would be less likely to repeat that stupidity in the future and thus not pass on a new era of terror to future generations by ****ting all over other poorer nations that will with out doubt one day have much easier access to nuclear arms.

What sh*t is that exactly dude? All that Oil we are stealing? Cuz i seem to be paing a rediculous amount for it at the pump right now. Maybe it's all that sand we are stealing for the beaches here back home that never erode away....

No idea what you are talking about. If there is anything that we have done, it's by association with the Brits, France or the rest of Europe for that matter. I'd sure like to see a run down of the atrocities that we have commited against them that make them hate us so. Loading up Uday and Qusay with 200lbs of lead doesn't count. Too many people enjoyed it.

I'm not saying understanding can stop the war on terror now. That's retarded, the hearts hardened against us can only be softened by a bullet at this point. But let's not create masses of enemies if we can avoid it, I think that's reasonable.

I think this administration felt that way and then we were attacked.

But hey Art we can always try your moral approach which is can basically be summed up to "hey we are stonger so screw them" followed by a series of grunts and ass scratching.

That works for me.

[Ghost of]

I would like any piece of garbage on this board who espouses that view to tell me what it is Nigerian Christians did, outnumbered in their country, or Pakistani Christians did to deserve getting murdered. or what the Buddhists did to "deserve" having those ancient Buddha statues destroyed.

Hey, what about the death of 70 plus tourists(most of them German) in Egypt at Luxor? They must have done something right?

Hey DESTINO, what do the tens of thousands of dead MUSLIM ALGERIANS have to do with what they did(dead at the hands of the fundies)

What are Buddhists in Thailand doing to warrant getting attacked now by Muslims?

Tell me what THESE people did to earn that hatred and maybe I'll entertain your questions about the US.

Tell me what DENMARK DID to deserve fundie clerics coming over to stir up hatred and to have Muslims rape their women?

[thew]

Yes, we support Israel. Of course, that's meaningless since we've never really been attacked by terrorists from the Middle East for that support.

This is just totally untrue. Clearly Al Quada professes a Pan Arabic message which dirctly points at Israel. It did when they assasignated Sadat after he made peace with Israel, it did when they attacked the world trade center the first time, our embassy in affrica, our destroyer, and also 911. Hell the guys who hijacked the Cruze ship the AkiliLaurel and killed poor Mr. Klinhawfer and American cited their hatred of Isreal.

Saying that we've never been attacked because of Israel is just silly. It's what we can do about it is the only question which reasonable folks can agree is valid.. Not the one you post.

As for they kill Jews, which of course they do I would remind you that the vast majority of the folks killed in the latest troubles have been and continue to be Palestinians not Jews.

As for why we need to understand them and they shouldn't try to understand us... I would say everybody needs to understand everybody and one party diging their head in the sand shouldn't preclude the other parties from educating themselves....

Again, no solutions only talking points..

[Art]

Thew,

It's a fact that Bin Laden had NEVER mentioned Palestine until AFTER the WTC attacks. It was NEVER part of the thinking or planning. This is historical record dude. Now, frequently terrorist attacks are made and then a citation is given to Palestine which is done to rile up the ignorant masses in the region.

[Ghost of]

thew

You're getting tiresome. You're issuing the same talking points you accuse others of using. First tell me how the people I listed warrant the misery wrought upon them.

Also, as for the greater number of Palestinians killed--well, duh, when you hide in residential areas, suffer from "work accidents" when you mishandle explosives and when you engage in gun battles vs. a superior army, you're going to die in greater numbers.

But the fact is, Israelis do not deliberately target civilians, they don't even bomb those big Hamas marches, which I would do. The Palestinians, on the other hand, attack children with glee. Then they put up art exhibits that glorify the murder.

And Palestinians, not Jews were the ones celebrating 9/11.

Hell, even the Iranian people had demonstrations in support of Americans after 9/11.

To put the final nail in the coffin of that lame point, more Iraqis have been killled than Americans. Does that mean anything other than being a number? No. You attempt to draw some kind of moral equivalence, or worse, by stating simple numbers.

[Ghost of]

Here are some pictures from islamicmedia at yahoo.

Of course, they're all about the peace, as we know.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/islamic-media/message/149/

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

I'll throw in my "unique" perspective to this argument that has been re-brought up.

Even though I am "one of them" I dont care to understand the rational behind the useless violence and killing. As I posted in another thread I follow the 5 pillars and leave it at that. I think my life as a Muslim is just fine.

However I personally do speak out against what we do constantly. And there are many like me who are against it and have just begun to make noise. But its a long process.

I tell any Muslim I meet that we have no right to hate America. I remind them of the TV shows they watch, of the technology they use and of the means of communications they have which are all western technology. I remind them that it was the French and the British that colonized the Middle East and India that reneged on the deal in Kashmir. I let them know that the real killers of us are guys like Saddam and Osama who seemed to have gotten a kick out of killing anyone.

I am probably one of the few on this board who has actually walked the streets of a place like Karachi and Islamabad and ventured to the Afghan-Paki border. There are a lot of poor pathetic people in those places who simply have nothing better to do then kill or blow themselves up. The people who do have better things to do (like my family, which is make some money) don't blow themselves up and do speak out against the violence.

If you actually read a paper in the middle east and looked at the national news or local news section you would see there is a lot of "Muslim on Muslim" crime. IMembers of my family have been carjacked 3 times in Karachi and our house has been robbed at least a dozen to the point where we now have to pay for expensive armed guards.

The key thing that bugs me is trying to lump all of us into the category of these barbarians. Or blaming the doctrine of religion. I despise these thugs more then anyone on this board because then I have to come on here and type all this BS. We talk about changes from within. Well changes will be coming very soon.

But why bother understanding the terrorists? There is no reason to understand them because it is simple, thier mission is to kill. But we shouldn't be in the business of killing or labeling the innocents either.

[Ghost of]

SHF

Thing is, when I try to say Islamism is the virus and it needs to be stopped, I still get accused of being bigoted or have someone like flash say we just made up the term last year(when that's not true)

What has frightened me is that Islam spread peacefully(generally) in Southeast Asia and the inhabitants essentially embraced a synthesis of Islam and native religion and even they are getting infected by the Islamist virus.

I know very well about all the Algerians and Moroccans killed by those kinds of guys, but the problem I think you see people having is that the scriptural backing for SOME of the crimes of these murderers is THERE. They have succeeded in winning over large portions of these populations to their cause. They have succeeded in making it, for some, a holy war.

Iraq was an attempt to change some of that. I hope it's successful and Iran's theocrats falling would be a HUGE step.

I don't want to see a wider war, but the problem is, when you have issues with the Danes, you've got problems in your communities. Then when that is being ripped apart by Muslim extremists and a general attitude of hate towards "kaffirs" merits a response, even many of the so-called moderates start crying and whining.

Certainly, there are outright thugs and criminals which would exist in any desperate situation or religion, we agree on that.

But beyond it, I'm not seeing a global fear of Buddhists or Christians. And it'd be one thing if the dominant outlets were men like Sheikh Kabbani or you--but even the so-called respected clerics, orgs, associations, etc around the world, be they in oppressive environs or in free ones, tend to indicate that there really isn't a deep divide in the Muslim world, besides the old Shi'a/Sunni one.

What can be done to create that divide and do so publically, I don't know. When I see that occur, that will be the next huge step. Then you can work to isolate the murderers and shrink their numbers.

But we also have to just outright kill them, as well.

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

Ghost I think you are seeing my point when you use words such as some. That is key to me.

I however do think there is a big divide in the Muslim world over this. Iran is a case in point, as you mentioned, and from what I have heard, seen, etc that country is very very close to edge of revolution. Hopefully it wont return to the days of the Shah either but that country is close.

The Islamization of Pakistan began during the time of Zia Ul Huq in order to ensure his power. However moves such as instilling the Sharia as law in Pakistan have been soundly defeated over and over. The last time this was attempted was in 1998 when Nawaz Sharif was making a push for it in the Parliment. However it never even came up for a vote because it would have been crushed. I only wish Liaqut Ali Khan was not assisanited in the early 1950s and Pakistan could have had some years under his leadership. You would see a radically different nation today.

But nonetheless I think the divide is there. I do not think large parts of the masses are for a holy war, just the masses that have weapons. My family had to hire armed guards because nobody in our family has weapons. We do not try and intimidate people or kill we just try and make a good living and live in peace.

The fundamentalists though have managed to capture the bully pulpit in the international arena. I always watch the news and see some fire breathing mullah speaking rather then a kid with a sign that says "No to Terrorism" In countries such as Pakistan, Iran and hell even Iraq before the war there have been many people trying to stop these fundamentalists.

The one interesting thing I was told in the last few months was a Muslim man in his late 20s giving my younger brother advice, who is a freshmen in college. He said whatever happens make sure the fundamentalists do not get a hold of power in the MSA at his school because it will drive most moderates, and most "peaceful" people out. We simply have to take that bully pulpit away from them and it starts with simple steps like that.

[Ghost of]

Interesting anecdote about the MSA on campuses. Indeed, the jihadists took over the MSA at Michigan(or at least the executive portion) and it seems something similar came from the Arab Student group.

I think, ironically, the Western media and governments fuel a lot of the extremism, in terms of granting them the pulpit, because they don't DO THE RESEARCH into these orgs and who does and does not support terrorism.

When was the last time a guy from the Islamic Supreme COuncil of America was on? Ever? lol It's pathetic. EVen Bush has had jihadists over, because he's so in a rush to calm people's passions, that his advisors do not do the research into these men and their positions.

[thew]

It's a fact that Bin Laden had NEVER mentioned Palestine until AFTER the WTC attacks.

That's just not true Art. Although it was widely published after 911. Fact is anti zionizm was one of the founding idea's behind Al Quada. I will reffer you to the History channel which has an excelent biography of Bin Laudin.. I will also reffer you to

The al-Qaeda Threat: An Analytical Guide to al-Qaeda's Tactics & Targets by Ben Venzke, Aimee Ibrahim

Al Queda is about Israel and has been since the beginning.

[TheKurp]

What we need to understand is why shutting down the newspaper Sadr's al-Hawza, with a mere circulation of 10,000, has resulted in far more violence than the publication ever successfully incited.

What we need to understand is why Shiites, long oppressed by the Baathist Party, are taking up arms against the people who liberated them from the very man who was largely responsible for their suffering.

What we need to understand is why Sistani, the country's leading religious figure, is suddenly showing signs of aligning with Sadr, a junior cleric who not long ago held little sway with the majority of Shiites.

What we need to understand is why Sunnis and Shiites, who have violently opposed each other for centuries, have suddenly joined forces to attack U.S. and coalition forces.

What we need to understand is what mis-calculations by our military and government leaders have led to what may very well become a popular and massive revolt against our forces in Iraq.

[thew]

The Kurp

What we need to understand is why shutting down the newspaper Sadr's al-Hawza, with a mere circulation of 10,000, has resulted in far more violence than the publication ever successfully incited.

What we need to understand is why Shiites, long oppressed by the Baathist Party, are taking up arms against the people who liberated them from the very man who was largely responsible for their suffering.

What we need to understand is why Sistani, the country's leading religious figure, is suddenly showing signs of aligning with Sadr, a junior cleric who not long ago held little sway with the majority of Shiites.

What we need to understand is why Sunnis and Shiites, who have violently opposed each other for centuries, have suddenly joined forces to attack U.S. and coalition forces.

What we need to understand is what mis-calculations by our military and government leaders have led to what may very well become a popular and massive revolt against our forces in Iraq.

Tell it!!!

I think even the Army regards the closing Sadr's al-Hawza as mistake now. Problem is we've now done it and can't undo it.

The one saving grace here is that when you go toe to toe with our military you loose. The Tet offensive looked really bad on TV but on the ground it was a disaster for the N. Vietnamese. Destroyed all their opprotives in the south for several years.

More knowledge though as you say is always a good thing..