G: CIA Waterboarded Al-Qaida Suspects 266 times

[JMS]

So much for restraint. My biggest problem with the entire torture tangent Bush / Cheney lead us down is that even today, nearly a decade after we began this at first secret and still controversial policy, no public official has ever pointed out a single actionable intelligence offering which we got out of this nightmare policy.

Jack Bower, tortores and he get's the information. Bush Cheney torture and they bag a US army Moslem cleric, a carpet merchant from Minniapolis, a handful of homeless men from Miama; and then when we hear about what these guys are accused of we learn that Bush's justice dept created them, or the case against them evaporated in the light of day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/20/waterboarding-alqaida-khalid-sheikh-mohammed

CIA waterboarded al-Qaida suspects 266 times

Torture technique outlawed by Obama was used extensively on 9/11 plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and alleged terror commander Abu Zubaydah

The CIA waterboarded two al-Qaida terror suspects a total of 266 times, according to a report that suggests the use of the torture technique was much more extensive than previously thought.

The documents showed waterboarding was used 183 times on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who admitted planning the 9/11 attacks, the New York Times reported today.

The US Justice Department memos released last Thursday showed that waterboarding, which the US now admits is torture, was used 83 times on the alleged al-Qaida senior commander Abu Zubaydah, the paper said. A former CIA officer claimed in 2007 that Zubaydah was subjected to the simulated drowning technique for only 35 seconds.

The numbers were removed from most of the memos over the weekend. But bloggers, including Marcy Wheeler from empytwheel, discovered that the figure had not been blanked out from one of the memos.

Barack Obama has banned waterboarding and overturned a Bush administration policy that it did not amount to torture.

The president did not intend to prosecute Bush administration officials who devised the policies that led to such interrogations, his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, said yesterday.

Asked on Sunday about the fate of those officials, Emanuel told ABC's This Week programme that Obama believed they "should not be prosecuted either and that's not the place that we go".

Michael Hayden, who led the CIA under Bush, said the public release of the memos would make it harder to get useful information from suspected terrorists being detained by the US.

"I think that teaching our enemies our outer limits, by taking techniques off the table, we have made it more difficult in a whole host of circumstances I can imagine, more difficult for CIA officers to defend the nation," Hayden said on Fox News Sunday.

He disputed an article in the New York Times on Saturday that said Zubaydah had revealed nothing new after being waterboarded, saying that he believed that after unspecified "techniques" were used Zubaydah revealed information that led to the capture of another terrorist suspect, Ramzi Binalshibh.

One of the released memos was a 2002 justice department briefing memo written by assistant attorney general Jay Bybee and sent to John Rizzo, the acting general counsel for the CIA, spelling out in detail how waterboarding should be practised. It specifically refers to the interrogation of Zubaydah using the water technique.

"In this procedure," Bybee said, "the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and the mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds ... this causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood.

"This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased efforts to breath. This effect plus the cloth produces the perception of 'suffocation and incipient panic', ie the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs."

After the 20 to 40 seconds, the cloth is lifted and the individual is allowed three or four full breaths before the procedure is repeated.

The memo went on to say that "we also understand that a medical expert will be present throughout this phase and the procedure will be stopped if deemed medically necessary to prevent severe mental or physical harm to Zubaydah".

A footnote to another 2005 justice department memo released last week said waterboarding was used both more frequently and with a greater volume of water than the CIA rules permitted.

[Burgold]

Well, we probably don't know what info they got and where it exactly lead to nor should we know as some of that intel and the stray threads associated with it may still be in play. I'm against torture in most cases for reasons both moral and practical, but I think it is unclear and unfair to suggest in certain terms that there has been no positves at all. You may be right... torture may have netted zero results, but I just don't think we know enough to state it. Rather, we can state why we are for or against it on moral, rational, or historical terms.

[Corcaigh]

He cracked in 30 seconds, so the other 82 times must have been just for a laugh.

[rd421]

I don't usually get involved in political stuff but honestly this is driving me nuts... I really do hope that President Obama will help build America stronger than it ever has been. I did not vote for him BUT he is the President and I do support him( I do mean that)

However the fact that he has been "de- classifying" reports to continue his smear campain on the previous administration is a complete waiste of time and more importantly is making the Country look bad. I believe that there are things that the general public has NO business in finding out. I am starting to feel like President Obama is still campaining and attempting to make himself look better than the previous administration. Sure he has different opinions than what Former President Bush did but I don't want to hear about it anymore.... He preaches change which is needed but all I have seen so far is more talk about how bad the last 8 years have been. Please stop pointing out probelms from the past and put all your energy on fixing our future....

[Bang]

Well, just so long as he's learned his lesson.

~Bang

[JMS]

Well, we probably don't know what info they got and where it exactly lead to nor should we know as some of that intel and the stray threads associated with it may still be in play. I'm against torture in most cases for reasons both moral and practical, but I think it is unclear and unfair to suggest in certain terms that there has been no positves at all. You may be right... torture may have netted zero results, but I just don't think we know enough to state it. Rather, we can state why we are for or against it on moral, rational, or historical terms.

I disagree with that. The entire "Trust us and don't ask questions" theme which ran through the Bush/Cheney administration always ran thin with me, but especially now because every time we do hear details; they directly refute what we were told.

We don't torture, but we do waterboard. Watherboarding isn't torture, but it has been since the Geneva convention was ratified and we prosecuted Japanese officers who waterboarded US troops in WWII. We only use it on the worst of the worst of the worst, but we do use other formerly known as torture techniques more broadly...

Gitmo only housed the worst of the worst, and children, and folks who we found not to be terrorists several years earlier, and some austrialians and Europeans who we released "cause we had no evidence to hold them"..

I think we heard days after the bogus arrest that the Cleric was a spy, the homeless men were Al Quada agents, and the carpet merchant was running munition sales on the side from his minniapolis store front.. I don't know why after nearly a decade even members of the Senete Intelligence commitee can't pont to a single actionable intelligence product to have come out of torturing folks.

[JMS]

However the fact that he has been "de- classifying" reports to continue his smear campain on the previous administration is a complete waiste of time and more importantly is making the Country look bad.

I disagree with you. I don't think Obama has gone far enough. These folks who purpetrated these CRIMES and broke United States Laws to do it; still think they were doing right. If you aren't going to convict them and put them in jail, where they belong; the very least Obama can do is publish all the paper work and show what stupid useless paranoid idiots actually purpatrated this F'ed up policy, and exactly what the country got out of it.

Fact is these policies have always been justified based upon fiction. Jack Bower has to get the information in minutes or thousands of Americans will die. Fact is these folks were just sadists, and were looking for any excuse to indulge themselves....

I think the country deserves to know exactly what was done, who they did it too, and what were the results of their actions. Then when the entire country get's sick to our stomach's over it, maybe just maybe the next time we as a country are collectively scared out of our wits, we won't abandon all reason and reflexively follow anybody who claims he will keep us safe without asking how he intends to do it. Publisizing the details of our subjourn into dark ages justice needs to be detailed and fully exposed so the nation can understand it's effectiveness. Our founding fathers and our greatest generation understood these things, we need to make sure we are all on the same boat as we move forward..

Oh and Hey, if it does turn out tourturing Sheik Mohomed did avert 10,000 innocent deaths; then terrific. Also if it turns out we only tortured these two sorry shmucks; again terrific. But how would you feel if you learn we tortured hundreds thousands, imprisoned tens of thousands even a hundred thousand folks some for nearly a decade; and most of them were released cause "we had no evidence against them"?

I believe that there are things that the general public has NO business in finding out. I am starting to feel like President Obama is still campaining and attempting to make himself look better than the previous administration.

A free country's people have no buisness in knowing what their government gets up to on their behalf, even a decade after the fact? If you lived in hte Soviet Union, or Sadam's Iraq, then I would agree with you. But I think we not only have a right, we have a responsibility to know and understand.

Sure he has different opinions than what Former President Bush did but I don't want to hear about it anymore.... He preaches change which is needed but all I have seen so far is more talk about how bad the last 8 years have been. Please stop pointing out probelms from the past and put all your energy on fixing our future....

We can't get to where we need to be, without understanding as a nation and a people where we are coming from.

[JMS]

He cracked in 30 seconds, so the other 82 times must have been just for a laugh.

You are right, I think I did read something about him cracking right away under the waterboarding and how effective it was. That's an excellent point.

[Titaw]

And, the point of this article is, what?

Honestly, they deserve alot more than this.

I feel no remorse or sypmpathy towards these two, nor do I believe that the waterboarding of these two should have stopped.

These two were behind the largest attack on US soil that cost 3,000+ Americans their lives. I think they are owed another couple thousand sessions.

[GibbsFactor]

Would have been much cooler had we done it 666 times.

It was the Jack Bower power hour!!! LOVE THE NAME!

[ACW]

And, the point of this article is, what?

Honestly, they deserve alot more than this.

I feel no remorse or sypmpathy towards these two, nor do I believe that the waterboarding of these two should have stopped.

These two were behind the largest attack on US soil that cost 3,000+ Americans their lives. I think they are owed another couple thousand sessions.

:secret: We're better than they are.

[Titaw]

:secret: We're better than they are.

So we just let 3,000+ families suffer because we're better. These two deserve so much worse so they can feel a fraction of what each and every individual that lost someone on 9/11 feel.

So, in America, you can kill over 3,000 innocent people and nothing happens to you, hell you get cable TV and 3 squares a day, just because we're better. Something is a little effed up here.

Why do you think the rest of the world view us as pushovers? The answer to this question is simple, WE ARE!!!

[TimmySmith]

I disagree with you. I don't think Obama has gone far enough. These folks who perpetrated these CRIMES and broke United States Laws to do it; still think they were doing right. If you aren't going to convict them and put them in jail, where they belong; the very least Obama can do is publish all the paper work and show what stupid useless paranoid idiots actually perpetrated this F'ed up policy, and exactly what the country got out of it.

The fact that he has not and will not, sheds light that the whole "Bush policy" is a media creation and that both sides of the aisle share responsibility.

[ACW]

So we just let 3,000+ families suffer because we're better. These two deserve so much worse so they can feel a fraction of what each and every individual that lost someone on 9/11 feel.

So, in America, you can kill over 3,000 innocent people and nothing happens to you, hell you get cable TV and 3 squares a day, just because we're better. Something is a little effed up here.

Why do you think the rest of the world view us as pushovers? The answer to this question is simple, WE ARE!!!

:doh::doh::doh:

It's called "prison." Why don't you go there? After all, it's apparently not so bad according to you

[Coltsfan in VA]

So we just let 3,000+ families suffer because we're better. These two deserve so much worse so they can feel a fraction of what each and every individual that lost someone on 9/11 feel.

So, in America, you can kill over 3,000 innocent people and nothing happens to you, hell you get cable TV and 3 squares a day, just because we're better. Something is a little effed up here.

Why do you think the rest of the world view us as pushovers? The answer to this question is simple, WE ARE!!!

Is torturing going to change anything? The 3,000 people were murdered, we can't change the past.

[renaissance]

Is torturing going to change anything? The 3,000 people were murdered, we can't change the past.

No but don't worry, it shows the world that we are badass.

[Larry]

And, the point of this article is, what?

Honestly, they deserve alot more than this.

I feel no remorse or sypmpathy towards these two, nor do I believe that the waterboarding of these two should have stopped.

These two were behind the largest attack on US soil that cost 3,000+ Americans their lives. I think they are owed another couple thousand sessions.

Ah, the old "he confessed under torture, therefore torture was justified" argument.

I seem to remember that argument being used in Salem, too.

I seem to remember our Constitution being specifically written to prevent it ever happening again.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

If waterboarding worked at all, after 266 times we would have been given Bin Laden's home address and phone number.

[Destino]

The issue here isn't "is it justified" the issue here is what percentage of this nation supports torture. We are a democracy and if the people want it...

I can't imagine the Christian right would support torture though.

[Big Blue Joe]

The issue here isn't "is it justified" the issue here is what percentage of this nation supports torture. We are a democracy and if the people want it...

I can't imagine the Christian right would support torture though.

No, we are a country that holds the constitution to be the highest law in the land. Popularity isn't an excuse for crimes against humanity. The Germans learned that the hard way after WWII.

[Burgold]

I disagree with that. The entire "Trust us and don't ask questions" theme which ran through the Bush/Cheney administration always ran thin with me, but especially now because every time we do hear details; they directly refute what we were told.

I don't know why after nearly a decade even members of the Senete Intelligence commitee can't pont to a single actionable intelligence product to have come out of torturing folks.

There's a very hard line here, JMS. The U.S. runs best with checks and balances and a healthy amount of citizen criticism and vigilance, but simultaneously, there are some things best kept clandestine (at least in the short and intermediate term). Do we want our average depressed teenager to have the recipe for Anthrax? Imagine what these fame hungry crazies would do... instead of shooting up a school and killing themselves, they would obliterate entire communities.

Similarly, it's not a bad thing if the bad guys don't know exactly what we know, who we are watching, are even who we got. Now, that's a much harder line because all sorts of corruption can spring for it (and has), but for the government to do its job while we need to check, be cynical, and stay vigilant we also do need to trust them.

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfield made that very difficult to do. They abused our trust, but we still need to offer a little bit of faith even as we keep a wary eye.

That said, I am opposed to torture 99.6% of the time.

[LaxBuddy21]

Is torturing going to change anything? The 3,000 people were murdered, we can't change the past.

This is always the worst argument. So I come over to your house and kill your family, should I not get punished? It doesnt matter they are already gone and you cant change the past right? Does staying in prison for a longer time than someone who commits a lesser crime really equal the punishment deserved for murdering someone? What about 3,000 people?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

This is always the worst argument. So I come over to your house and kill your family, should I not get punished? It doesnt matter they are already gone and you cant change the past right? Does staying in prison for a longer time than someone who commits a lesser crime really equal the punishment deserved for murdering someone? What about 3,000 people?

Actually, the worst argument is that torture is punishment for past deeds. In fact, no one has made that argument. The CIA, nor the NSA, nor any intelligence agency is not responsible for punishing bad deeds. That's called the D.O.J.

Its outside the scorpe of the issues and the arguments to claim torture is justified as punishment.

[jpillian]

The ethical angle of such activities aside:

I'd be interested in any reasonable explanations as to why 266 waterboarding sessions would ever be needed for two such individuals. It seems to me after a number far less than that, the interrogators would have moved on to something else.

[da#1skinsfan]

eh. none of this really matters to me and i am glad emmanuel is more focused on it than obama. torture them, dont torture them, cut off their fingers, waterboard them, whatever...i dont really care.

lower my f'ng taxes, get the job market together, fix housing, reduce crime, and shrink the government.

then lets worry about what we're doing with terrorists. all i know is another plane hasnt flown into any buildings in the US, if it aint broke (like so many other things in the US today), dont fix it.