Are Green Jobs an Economic Black Hole?

[twa]

interesting ap

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?condition=none&citycounty=county&geocode=06075+06037+48201+48113&_debug=2&_service=aircomp&_program=dataprog.wcj_bymonthyearhealth.sas&submit=Compare+My+Air

looking at historical rates/trend we seem to be doing pretty well for the massive petrochemical center that we are....and far below LA

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?_service=aircomp&_debug=0&_program=dataprog.wcj_byyearhealth.sas&geocode=06075%2006037%2048201%2048113&condition=active&citycounty=county

---------- Post added March-1st-2013 at 09:39 AM ----------

You're right. Houston is the largest polluter of CO2. Of course, LA is 2nd and close to Houston. But it's hard to blame LA though, they have almost 2x as many people as Houston and they have the Kardashians.

We have more than 4x the pop of SF co......CO2 is not a pollutant except to those that deny science :evilg:

[The Evil Genius]

Sorry TWA, but Texas's annual CO2 emissions per capita are frightening, especially with the size of it's population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

[twa]

It's why the grass is greener here.

...a bonus that plants crave

[Larry]

It's why the grass is greener here.

[twa]

Isn't that like recycling?....can we get carbon credits for that? LOL

[greenspandan]

i DO NOT get the right's adamant hatred and obstruction and constant smearing of any attempt to clean up or improve the efficiency of industry. there is so much money to be made by embracing it. is it sheer laziness? they'd rather keep their current profit lines running than invest in new, better ones? what crappy capitalists they make.

[The Evil Genius]

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?_service=aircomp&_debug=0&_program=dataprog.wcj_byyearhealth.sas&geocode=06075%2006037%2048201%2048113&condition=active&citycounty=county

---------- Post added March-1st-2013 at 09:39 AM ----------

We have more than 4x the pop of SF co......CO2 is not a pollutant except to those that deny science :evilg:

?

Why did you bring SF into this? Especially if they have had no unhealthy air days in the last 9 years, per your link?

Also, when was 2.1 million considered 4x the amount of 800k? Is that Texas math or something?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Again, my comparison was CO2 output of LA to Houston - which is ironic since LA's population almost double's Houston's. Yet, Houston leads the nation is CO2 output.

[twa]

The co after SF matters,as does the difference between Houston and Harris co...tis not my math skills,but rather your reading ones

co2 is not a pollutant

greenspandan....we improve both....sensibly

[JMS]

Questions like this kill me.... Like the oil industry doesn't get larger subsidies than green industries do TODAY... Like the Oil Industry hasn't been getting it's subsidies for 100 years without anybody questioning

the expense... but in vest in a competing sustainable industry and all the sudden it's, HEY THAT'S EXPENSIVE..

[deejaydana]

^^^^^ From the books I've read, which are only a couple (though well sourced) the dreaded oil companies have already long ago invested themselves in the alternate enegy sources that are sure to become (eventually) more viable. The question posed by the OP is leading. Do these green jobs look like a black hole now? In light of how many companies have bellied up already (and which we've flushed literally hundreds of millions under Obama) it's easy to say 'yes' but it is a path we're going to have to eventually move towards. Again, it just simply doesn't happen overnight (as much as the idealists among us would like it to do so).

[twa]

Questions like this kill me.... Like the oil industry doesn't get larger subsidies than green industries do TODAY... Like the Oil Industry hasn't been getting it's subsidies for 100 years without anybody questioning

the expense... but in vest in a competing sustainable industry and all the sudden it's, HEY THAT'S EXPENSIVE..

how does your subsidy figures change with a honest accounting of % of energy provided?

statements like yours are killing me....and the economy

add

http://environmentblog.ncpa.org/which-energy-source-receives-the-largest-subsidy/

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UdNTZt-OBwQJ:www.iisd.org/gsi/sites/default/files/relative_energy_subsidies.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGezuOPNUIvPeXw___jEovvznayQ82Lt0aBK0AgnZD4OoW74gZV0JHm0JoHcVwlp_VjjsCY4qd1mEWl5s0KHuSDBNN2az2MLMqzhMp96okyMACQIU-wfjtI6UFZ4dfxCWjdJPk&sig=AHIEtbRDW89EB-mSRxXpr-mox3M7eg6x0A

[Larry]

co2 is not a pollutant

Keep making that claim.

---------- Post added March-1st-2013 at 01:45 PM ----------

how does your subsidy figures change with a honest accounting of % of energy provided?

Translation: "Yeah, you're right, oil subsidies are vastly larger. But, if you divide their subsidies by the amount of energy produced . . . "

statements like yours are killing me....and the economy

Yeah, alternative energy subsidies are killing the economy.

[The Evil Genius]

Look, we all know that you have a vested interest in fossil fuels remaining top dog, TWA. So why I bother to reply is beyond me. Perhaps I just like banging my head on the wall.

But your repeated belief that CO2 isn't a pollutant is comical. Personally, I don't know what to say anymore on the subject..or really even if anything has to be added.

My bad on the SF part - I tend to think of SF meaning San Francisco.

[twa]

Translation: "Yeah, you're right, oil subsidies are vastly larger. But, if you divide their subsidies by the amount of energy produced . . . "

Yeah, alternative energy subsidies are killing the economy.

What measure would you use Larry?...honestly

it is not the subsidies as much as the mindset that goes with them that are doing harm

Evil Genius....I have less financial interest in oil/gas ect than anyone I know,you could even say I avoid having any.

[twa]

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21575771-environmental-lunacy-europe-fuel-future

Wood

The fuel of the future

Environmental lunacy in Europe

WHICH source of renewable energy is most important to the European Union? Solar power, perhaps? (Europe has three-quarters of the world’s total installed capacity of solar photovoltaic energy.) Or wind? (Germany trebled its wind-power capacity in the past decade.) The answer is neither. By far the largest so-called renewable fuel used in Europe is wood.

[RedskinsFan44]

It's why the grass is greener here.

...a bonus that plants crave

That's funny, whenever I think of Texas I'm reminded of the movie Giant.

[Larry]

By far the largest so-called renewable fuel used in Europe is wood.

:secret: Wood is renewable. Nothing "so-called" about it.

[PeterMP]

From an environmental stand point, as long as they are committing to re-growing the forrest, practicing a good land and forrest management, and reasonable non-CO2 capture emission technology is used (which for wood should be pretty easy as it won't have many of the emission issues that coal has) I don't really have an issue with using wood for energy.

In fact, in many aspects, it is probably superior to solar in terms of land use where currently we are building large solar farms.

From an environomental aspect, I'd rather have a forrest full of trees, even if they are going to be cut down, then a field full of solar panels.

[Larry]

That's funny, whenever I think of Texas I'm reminded of the movie Giant.

Recall my Dad once telling me about the days when he was an Instructor Pilot, training people in how to fly the B-25, in West Texas.

Dad explained to me that part of the training included training in cross-country navigation. As such all of the pilots had to pass a test explaining what all of the symbols on an aviation map meant.

Dad explained that an aviation map contains a lot of special symbols that noted things that were considered important for pilots to know about. Things like how high the ground was. One of the more important symbols, for example, was something that looked kind of like the Eiffel Tower (it was supposed to look like a radio or TV antenna), which actually indicated anything that stuck up significantly above the ground. (Note: The ground here is 1,070 feet above sea level. But there's this thing, right here, that's 2,000 feet higher than the ground. Don't hit it.)

(The maps also had symbols on them indicating things like roads or railroad lines, under the assumption that these things could be used as navigation aids. Navigating by following railroad lines was referred to as "flying the iron compass".)

And Dad mentioned to me that one of the maps that was used often for one of their training areas, actually contained a symbol that all pilots were required to know what it meant (to pass the test), even though he had never seen any other map, besides this one, that actually had that symbol on it.

A small "x" on the map was the symbol for any object for which there was no other symbol, but which the map makers thought might be a useful reference point for aircraft navigation.

And, on this one map, of their training area in West Texas, there was one of those "x"s.

Labeled "Tree".

That was Dad's primary memory of West Texas. The fact that a tree was so rare that it was considered useful for aircraft navigation.

He said that he once took a flight of B-25s 75 miles off course, just so he could fly past this landmark.

(He said that he thought that the map maker was being generous.)

---------- Post added April-6th-2013 at 04:10 PM ----------

From an environmental stand point, as long as they are committing to re-growing the forrest, practicing a good land and forrest management, and reasonable non-CO2 capture emission technology is used (which for wood should be pretty easy as it won't have many of the emission issues that coal has) I don't really have an issue with using wood for energy.

In fact, in many aspects, it is probably superior to solar in terms of land use where currently we are building large solar farms.

From an environomental aspect, I'd rather have a forrest full of trees, even if they are going to be cut down, then a field full of solar panels.

Yeah, the article actually mentions several reasons why industry considers wood more attractive than other alternative energy. (Like, it doesn't need standby power, the way solar or wind do.)

Yeah, it also mentions that the wood they're burning is imported. And I think we all recognize the drawbacks of an industrial power being dependent on energy from somewhere else.

But, like you said, if they're actually planting well managed trees, (even if they're planting them somewhere else), then environmentally, that's better than a lot of the energy we're using now.

[Hubbs]

Random thought that seems relevant to this thread: I recently encountered the amazing story of a kid in Africa who educated himself through the library in his town and built a working windmill to power a few things in his house, which, like most of the houses where he lived, had no other access to electricity. He helped his neighbors do the same thing, and now he raises money for all sorts of projects to help his community, with results that seem to be pretty transparent. He was eventually invited to give a TED talk. Here's a short video about him:

I don't know anyone who wouldn't support that kind of wind power.

[twa]

:secret: Wood is renewable. Nothing "so-called" about it.

As is abiotic gas and oil....or fossil fuels if ya wait long enough :evilg:

But you are right, but I think the authors point is burning wood is not what the public envisions with renewable energy (not that that slows down the European wood thieves trying to stay warm)

[twa]

Fisker Automotive, a federally backed maker of plug-in hybrid cars, laid off 75 percent of its workers Friday as it struggles to stay afloat and find new capital, according to press accounts.

“Our efforts to secure a strategic alliance or partnership are continuing in earnest, but unfortunately we have reached a point where a significant reduction in our workforce has become necessary,” the struggling California-based automaker said in a statement, according to Bloomberg.

The company said the cuts are a “strategic step in our efforts to maximize the value of Fisker’s core assets.”

The company recently hired bankruptcy lawyers in preparation for a possible filing.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/292149-obama-backed-electric-automaker-lays-off-most-staff-#ixzz2Pn9hXROz

Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

[LadySkinsFan]

There would be more green jobs if, instead of putting huge amounts of money into solar/wind farms to feed the grid, we put that money into putting solar/wind in more local places, like homes (mandated for new construction and then refitting existing homes) and businesses. Of course, the big money is supporting the utilities, because if individuals could generate their own power, then they wouldn't rely on the grid/utilities and we can't have people generating their own power on a massive scale.

[twa]

LSF.....Many states and utilities subsidize home solar/wind installations.

The high upfront costs tends to limit takers though....and of course the decision to tax the systems as added value takes some aback

http://www.cleansolarliving.com/webpage.php?page=25

U.S. Government will Pay for 30% of Your Solar System

At the moment the U.S. government is offering either tax credits or grants for 30% of what is described as "qualified property," meaning any properly installed solar system. These solar installation financial incentives apply to photovoltaic panels, solar water heaters and solar space heaters. Essentially the only solar technology that is excluded is passive solar (understandably because such an incentive could be applied to an entire remodel!).

[JMS]

It's why the grass is greener here.

...a bonus that plants crave

The grass is greener in Texas only for folks who live in Mississippi. Ten things Texas has given the world.

(10) Breast implants. Developed in Texas, and Texas still leads the nation in installing them.

(9) Robert Van Winkle ( Vanilla Ice ) Say no more.

8) Tom DeLay "the Exterminator." started out killing insects and pretty much tried to stick with what worked.

Pictured here smoking a Cuban cigar while on a congressional junket.. Nice.

7) Barney, yes the purple dinosaur... That alone is enough to hate Texas.

6) Dealey Plaza, 1963 condemning the entire country too suffer through Vietnam with Johnson and then Nixon.

5) The Oil Depletion Allowance, a gift of graft which touched the entire nation

4) Astroturf... not the good stuff we have now... the bad stuff which came before.

3) Mark David Chapman, killed the first beetle.

2) Urban Cowboy... Not the movie but the cultural phenomenal.. bad music, worse fashion and very, very unfortunate dancing. The only saving grace is that Texans suffered the brunt of it.

1) W.