Is it the OL or the QB? Some Stats for comparison

[CPortJGibbs89]

I dont know what the reason is for calling that kind of play, but in defense of GHH, even though I support another year of JC at the helm, JC is a pocket passer. His accuracy on rollouts is not so good (I dont have the actual numbers). Its one of the reason, I think JC needs better protection to become a better QB.

Thee are all sorts of flavors of passers out there. Gunners, Dissecters, Runners, etc... thats one thing that bothers me a bit when discussing JC shortcomings. I realistically dont know if JC will be cut out for a WCO type system. You really need that twitch type play and fast reaction time to be very succesful at it. And after taking a deep breath, stepping back and looking at the team top to bottom...

I think Gibbs drafted JC to be typical Gibbs offense QB. Run the ball, control the clock, stop the run and play action once in a while. Not very risky... which is exactly what JC has grown to be. I hope another year in the same system can make me feel different about that.

Thast not saying JC sucks. I think he has ALOT of talent, but if you need a plumber to fix your pipes, you dont call and electrician...

Well said man. He is not a roll out type passer at all. I believe he is ideal for what the Titans did with Collins, they have a good o-line a dominate run game with two studs, which Campbell had the same deal at Auburn, and the Titans had a great defense. Collins didnt have to win the game he just had to manage the game and he did that.

At this point we dont have the dominate o-line the Titans do, we have 1 stud RB, I dont think Betts is what McD5 makes him out to be but he is a decent back up. We also have a good defense but no one that foreces turnovers like the Titans.

I just dont think Campbells release will ever be fast enough for the WCO. He may have ran it in college and was great at it but the NFL is a different ball game. Corners in the NFL are much smarter and better at reacting to a pass and if its slightly off they will make a play on the ball. In college there is room for error due to the talent level.

Maybe its possible that Gibbs 4 years here forced the no turnover control the clock game down Campbells throat and thats all he knows. Even with Zorn telling him to do this and do that I feel as if Campbell is already programmed to play it safe. Like you said I hope I am wrong and he can grow in this system but I just dont think we have complete package around him for him to be succesful like the Titans with Collins. Your last line is ****ing awesome LoL!

[terpskins10]

I am excited to see him in a system for a second year.

As am I. He's got obvious talent but something just seems to be missing. I honestly do think one more year in the same system will be what pushes him over, but, like I said, everyone has their mind made up that he's a failure.

It's not on me to change everyone's mind, or you, or corrupt3d, or anyone else. It's on Jason, and Jason only. That's pretty much the extent that I'm going to argue about him from now on, because it's just not going to help unless Campbell does it himself.

Let's see it, Big J.

[Veretax]

Well said man. He is not a roll out type passer at all. I believe he is ideal for what the Titans did with Collins, they have a good o-line a dominate run game with two studs, which Campbell had the same deal at Auburn, and the Titans had a great defense. Collins didnt have to win the game he just had to manage the game and he did that.

At this point we dont have the dominate o-line the Titans do, we have 1 stud RB, I dont think Betts is what McD5 makes him out to be but he is a decent back up. We also have a good defense but no one that foreces turnovers like the Titans.

I just dont think Campbells release will ever be fast enough for the WCO. He may have ran it in college and was great at it but the NFL is a different ball game. Corners in the NFL are much smarter and better at reacting to a pass and if its slightly off they will make a play on the ball. In college there is room for error due to the talent level.

Maybe its possible that Gibbs 4 years here forced the no turnover control the clock game down Campbells throat and thats all he knows. Even with Zorn telling him to do this and do that I feel as if Campbell is already programmed to play it safe. Like you said I hope I am wrong and he can grow in this system but I just dont think we have complete package around him for him to be succesful like the Titans with Collins. Your last line is ****ing awesome LoL!

this has always puzzled me, why don't we roll JC out more? Is it because of JC? Or do we just not do that? I've never understood that, throwing on the run can be tricky I realize, but i see people do it in college all the time, so I don't get it.

[mistertim]

this has always puzzled me, why don't we roll JC out more? Is it because of JC? Or do we just not do that? I've never understood that, throwing on the run can be tricky I realize, but i see people do it in college all the time, so I don't get it.

It's a bit odd to me too since, from what I remember, the limited number of times they did a roll out or boot with JC it was generally pretty successful.

[darrelgreenie]

I think most everyone has their mind made up. I don't see it changing unless Campbell goes out and throws for 25 TDs and 3500 yards, warranting an extension. I think he can do it, but I'm in the very small minority.

Nah, bra i think there is a silent majority behind JC & JZ

but the arguing with the haters gets so tiresome that most don't bother

HTTR!

[CPortJGibbs89]

It's a bit odd to me too since, from what I remember, the limited number of times they did a roll out or boot with JC it was generally pretty successful.

For some reason I am drawing blanks when we rolled Campbell out. Do you remember where he would usally throw the ball? To Cooley, or Moss? I know we did it a few times but cant remember what the outcome of the plays were.

[mistertim]

For some reason I am drawing blanks when we rolled Campbell out. Do you remember where he would usally throw the ball? To Cooley, or Moss? I know we did it a few times but cant remember what the outcome of the plays were.

I can't remember the exact games. But I remember the one where they went for it on 4th and short to seal the game and they had JC roll out to his left and he passed it over the defender to Cooley who easily picked up the first down. There was another I remember where he roll out to his right and did something similar with Sellers I think it was. There was one to ARE for a TD but I'm not sure whether that was a designed roll out or if he came out of the pocket due to pressure.

[CPortJGibbs89]

I can't remember the exact games. But I remember the one where they went for it on 4th and short to seal the game and they had JC roll out to his left and he passed it over the defender to Cooley who easily picked up the first down. There was another I remember where he roll out to his right and did something similar with Sellers I think it was. There was one to ARE for a TD but I'm not sure whether that was a designed roll out or if he came out of the pocket due to pressure.

Cool man thanks for refreshing my memory. Zorn seemed so damn creative at the begining of the year and the last half of the year it seemed like 04 Gibbs offense. The way the o-line was breaking down at times the roll out would have been a great call. Oh well....

[Playsmart30]

I'm a JC fan, but he also contributed to some of those sacks by holding onto the ball too long. The fact that everyone talks about the # of sacks and wants to blame the OL or Campbell is missing the point. It was the first year of a new offensive system and you have to expect some growing pains with that. That includes a high number of sacks. Both the OL, WR's and JC were all at times thinking instead of reacting. Just that half a second of indecision is the time it takes to miss a block, cut a route short or fail to check down on a blitz fast enough.

The expectations are just too high and a lot of that was because of the 6-2 start. But once teams got film on us and we were forced to expand the game plan each week the thinking started and the reactions slowed.

This year is pivotal for JC because he shouldn't be thinking nearly enough, the line is largely intact and the WR's have another year under there belt. I don't think he needs to put up ridiculous passing numbers to stay but I think he does need to show improvement by getting rid of the ball quicker, spreading the ball around to more WR's and getting the ball downfield more frequently.

If wr's is not open what u want him to do throw int?

[Peregrine]

I would agree with your conclusion, but I really dont think stats shows a good picture of this. I watched every single play last year, as every year, and I SAW a really bad offensive line. I saw Jansen get beat over and over again. I saw Rabach get tossed like a salad. Whatever you want to say about JC, you absolutely cannot, reasonably, say the offensive line played well(at least if you actually watched the games).

I think we can all also agree that both the offensive line and JC played well in the first half of the season. So what happened? Age. We all know the offensive line is very old, in fact, the oldest in the NFL, and last year had 5 starters over 30. Of the other 31 NFL teams, 30 had 2 starters or less over 30. They got tired. They got injured. The other team with more than 2 over 30 starters? The Cowboys. They also did not address the old offensive line, and how did they fair this last season, after a 4-1 start?

We must get younger on the offensive line, 33 year old blockers do not last for a full season.

[darrelgreenie]

I can't remember the exact games. But I remember the one where they went for it on 4th and short to seal the game and they had JC roll out to his left and he passed it over the defender to Cooley who easily picked up the first down. There was another I remember where he roll out to his right and did something similar with Sellers I think it was. There was one to ARE for a TD but I'm not sure whether that was a designed roll out or if he came out of the pocket due to pressure.

For some reason I am drawing blanks when we rolled Campbell out. Do you remember where he would usally throw the ball? To Cooley, or Moss? I know we did it a few times but cant remember what the outcome of the plays were.

Last year JC roll outs/bootlegs mainly came from play-action usually from the I-Form(Pro) where he hits Cooley in the flat:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b06b8c

or hits the WR (Moss) trailing from the backside (I-Form 3 Wide where ARE in the slot runs Cooley's route):

[go to 2:16]

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80bf357c

I also remember seeing some play-action rollout/bootlegs to ARE in the slot from a 3 wide Singleback set.

I only recall 1 roll out without play action and that was against the Steelers. JC rolled out right and threw to Moss on a go down the right sideline.

HTTR!

[AAARedskin]

Campbell holds the ball way too long and this LEADS to him getting pressured and sacked too often. Sure, the Skins need to acquire at least TWO new linemen, but it wasn't ALL the fault of the O-line last season. There are OTHER QBs that have a knack for spotting an open receiver more quickly than Jason Campbell....Reading the D and a quicker release EQUALS FEWER SACKS GIVEN UP by the "bad O-line."

[turbodiesel#44]

A great QB can mask problems on the OL. But a terrible OL can also kill a QB before he can become great. Both the QB and OL need to improve. We need younger guys on the line, and JC needs to quicken his game speed by being so comfortable with the system it's second nature to him, like riding a bike. If he can reach that level and maintain it as the playbook expands, he's going to prove a lot of people wrong. Heck, I think he started to do just that in the first half of '08. Hopefully he, and the entire team, can finish this season.

Totally agree. I'm not completely sold on JC yet, but the OL performed so poorly we really haven't given him the look that such a costly, promising QB deserves. Both need to improve, and when the bottom dropped out of the OL, JC's progress stopped. Maybe a Brady might have been able to mask the problem a little better. But if Brady is our yardstick, we are never going to be happy until we trade for Brady. And we don't have enough draft picks for that.

[SoCalSkins]

You can't separate a QB form the sack equation, even more so under Zorn's scheme because JC calls the line protections. Simple solution is to sit JC and see what the results are with another QB, but none of the JC fans want to try that. Even if we did and the results were better, they would say that the line finally got healthy or that the team played better and with more inspiration. You know, the qualities that a leader is suppose to bring out in his team.

[SirClintonPortis]

You can't separate a QB form the sack equation, even more so under Zorn's scheme because JC calls the line protections. Simple solution is to sit JC and see what the results are with another QB, but none of the JC fans want to try that. Even if we did and the results were better, they would say that the line finally got healthy or that the team played better and with more inspiration. You know, the qualities that a leader is suppose to bring out in his team.

Whiffle blocks are on the O-line. See Suggs on Samuels. Of course, Samuels being forced to play on a bad knee in the first place just shows how ****** the depth was on O-line, and hence this goes all the way back to the FO for bad habits when it comes to acquiring personnel.

[the12thSkin]

2 year in the same system + upgrade in OL = JC the first round qb we drafted Get on board or get off

[mo808]

Great thread! O line definitely needs upgrade, but so does QB skills at reading defenses and making plays when it breaks down. The bottom line statistic? (The one that really counts) More WINS than LOSSES! Hail! :point2sky

[velocet]

If the offensive line was so awful last year, so "porous" as it's been said, then its also among the weirdest. Yeah, since the pass blocking was so abysmal the passing game was largely stymied, but yet the QB wasn't getting killed back there. Somehow through all that the QB was able to start and finish every game all season. Weird.

velocet

[Veretax]

It's a bit odd to me too since, from what I remember, the limited number of times they did a roll out or boot with JC it was generally pretty successful.

I've lost track of the number of times in the last 4 years, where I've been calling for a boot leg or roll out especially in the redzone. So much potential there. However, when you roll out, it does tend to limit your field some what. Flaco was particularly bad at this.

Oh, and a QB does not have to be sacked to have pressure in his face.

[Passizle]

If the offensive line was so awful last year, so "porous" as it's been said, then its also among the weirdest. Yeah, since the pass blocking was so abysmal the passing game was largely stymied, but yet the QB wasn't getting killed back there. Somehow through all that the QB was able to start and finish every game all season. Weird.

velocet

That can be attributed to JC's toughness. There is one thing that no JC pessemist can "debunk". The kid is tough as nails...

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

That can be attributed to JC's toughness. There is one thing that no JC pessemist can "debunk". The kid is tough as nails...

See Pass man, when you realy try, you can find something we ALL agree on.

Hail.

[DCMONEY]

So you don't think the O-line has been a problem?

http://blog.redskins.com/2008/12/08/coach-zorn-shuffles-the-o-line-deck/

"The highlight from Coach Zorn's press conference today is the reshuffling of the offensive line, a move born more of necessity than of any particular desire on Zorn's part. (To judge by the comments, though, there are plenty of fans who will be pleased to see some change - ANY change - along the lines, so ... here you go!)

Here's how it breaks down (no pun intended):

Read more »

Chris Samuels has a 50% tear in his tricep, so he's going to be getting surgery and is done for the year. Jon Jansen is waiting for news on his MCL, and even substitute tackle and backup center Justin Geisinger suffered a potential knee sprain last night and has an MRI scheduled. So both tackles and the backup center are likely gone.

Assuming that both Samuels and Jansen are out, Stephon Heyer becomes the starting left tackle and the frequently-inactive Jason Fabini becomes the starting right tackle. Devin Clark will be activated off the practice squad, and both he and fellow rookie Chad Rinehart will start receiving work at both tackle and guard. Meanwhile, Pete Kendall becomes the backup center."

I forgot about this, but this was December 8th, with 4 weeks left, and Samuels was hurt, Jansen had something wrong with his MCL, we had Geisinger activated, and Fabini at Tackle in place of Jansen? (I think Jansen maybe ended up playing that week but not sure.)

Bottom line, very few teams can lose starting O-linemen and bring in guys and get reasonable performance. This was after the ravens Game, before Cincinatti, Week 15, curious. According to NFL.com Samuels didn't play after the Baltimore game? (were we without him for 3 weeks? hrms.). It seems like Jansen was available and did play some in those three games, but as I saw bugle say in an article http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Ever_Loyal__Bugel_Discusses_State_Of_the_O_Line_32019.jsp he was almost never 100%, maybe 85% at times. Funny that 85% Jon Jansen is still better than Fabini.

Yet more proof if we don't fix the O-line we could see heyer again at LT with Dockery, Rabach, Rheinhardt at RT, and Thomas/someone else at guard... ick not a confident situation to be in if you ask me.

Man you're right. That O-line had people playing less than 100%. The line wasn't physical at all. They couldn't just fire off the ball and man handle defenses. IMO I've always felt the way to slow down a pass rush is for a team to have a good running game. A d-lineman is less inclined to get upfield if he thinks he's gonna get hit in the mouth on a running play. The Skins O-line in the last 8 games were horrible. Has that much time gone by where people have forgotten, or are they just blind. After looking at JC and the O-line in the last 8 games, their conclusion is that its JC more than the line? Thats crazy.

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

Funny you'd say that. They're only "darn statistics" when they say something you'd rather not hear.

Bad move here, considering each QB is in a different situation... as stated in my post above, the only way to figure out what bigyim's stats in his OP really mean is to figure out how many times Jason escaped pressure, while taking into account how well he did once he escaped that pressure.

With that said, let's take a look into your "most sacked QBs" expose':

Matt Cassel had arguably the best WR group in the NFL on his roster. Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Jabar Gaffney, Chad Jackson, and Kelley Washington. You simply cannot disregard this. Let alone Matt has arguably the best pass blocking Oline in the NFL too. I may be wrong, but I think most of his sacks came early on in the season when he was still adjusting.

But of course you'll disregard this. And you'll write it off as an excuse. Unfortunately for you, what you call an excuse doesn't go down in history as one automatically.

System, system, system. Ben has been in the same system for quite some time now, and it's arguable whether or not he has a better WR corps. Plus, Ben is a really really good QB... something we all should hope Campbell can aspire to. You must keep in mind that bigyim was not saying Campbell is elite but the Oline is holding him back, just that there is a high possiblity that Campbell's troubles have more to do with the Oline than anything else.

You're comparison here to what Ben accomplished is missing that point. Ben is also better at extending plays than Campbell at this point in his career. That is not to say Campbell can't improve that aspect of his play, either... but Ben is certainly special with his abilities to improvise, and a lot of the times, his receivers get open deep for him simply because he's running around looking for them for so long.

With that being said, his stats aren't a massive improvement over Jason's, he had over double the amount of INTs, and he had a good running game helping him out for the entire year, not just half.

Btw, could you call Ben up and ask him if his defense helped him out a bit on some of those TDs by giving him a short field? I'm sure he'll let you know.

29 more attempts with little to show. This one isn't even worth commenting on.

Once again, he's been in that system for quite some time. Your sarcasm about that point doesn't negate it. You see, I could put a hundred :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: next to a comment like "the sky is blue" and it still wouldn't change the fact that the sky is blue. Aaron certainly may end up being a much better QB than Campbell, and I think he played extremely well last year... however, 30 more attempts is still 30 more attempts. His WR core is arguably better once again, and his Oline gave up less sacks with more pass attempts.

Oh yeah, you conveniently left out that he had over double the amount of INTs than Campbell again.

The sky is blue. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

Joe Flacco is perhaps the worst example. Ever. He did very little besides manage the game, and did that poorly at times to boot! You conveniently left out his INT totals once again! Double Campbells!! He had a defense that consistently gave him short fields, along with a great running game for the entire year that allowed him to take deep shots almost every passing play. The Ravens passing offense was based on play action and deep pass attempts. If the deep ball wasn't there, check down. With all those 20+ and 40+ passes completed you'd think he'd have more passing yards than Campbell overall, right? Nope. That should tell you something.

Of course, that has nothing to do with anything, right?

Well, he's Brett Favre. Noone is saying Campbell is there, yet. He hasn't even been in the league for half the time Favre has. He had the same amount of INTs as he did TDs, and I'm sure you'd be the first to kill Campbell had he provided us with 22 of each. 22 INTs is over triple the amount of INTs Campbell threw.

That's crap! The Jets run a West Coast offense similar to Green Bays, and the entire league knew they pretty much changed the entire passing game for Favre.

Yes, so it seems. :cool:

blah blah blah...

system system system...

our wideouts suck...

our oline sucks...

campbell doesn't throw that many INTs (only in high pressure situations)...

okay, now can anyone come up with any more excuses for the guy?

GibbsHogHeaven was spot on, but he should have included the INTs...even still Campbell only throws INTs because we have short receivers:doh:

[SirClintonPortis]

Man you're right. That O-line had people playing less than 100%. The line wasn't physical at all. They couldn't just fire off the ball and man handle defenses. IMO I've always felt the way to slow down a pass rush is for a team to have a good running game. A d-lineman is less inclined to get upfield if he thinks he's gonna get hit in the mouth on a running play. The Skins O-line in the last 8 games were horrible. Has that much time gone by where people have forgotten, or are they just blind. After looking at JC and the O-line in the last 8 games, their conclusion is that its JC more than the line? Thats crazy.

Maybe all 8 games is a bit of a stretch as Portis may have been used less due to due but was still gaining plenty of yards...buuuut

It was after the Ravens game when the run game completely tanked. Heyer(out of position) and Fabini are simply not up to Samuels' and Jansen's caliber of run blocking.

[bigyim]

Well, this exceeded my expectations.

Relatively little name-calling, or outright ridicule. Logic and data brought up to support arguements. People agreeing to disagree.

Am I really on Extremeskins? Honestly?

Well, since it looks like we won't be trading for Cutler after all, the upcoming year should tell us who's logic is more sound...and whether or not Campbell gets the left foot out the door of Redskins park, or a big fat FA contract in '10.