Is it the OL or the QB? Some Stats for comparison

[bigyim]

I may come across as a Campbell supporter...but, honestly, I wouldn't mind the rumored Cutler trade. I just think that, in light of some of these stats from 2008, that getting Cutler wouldn't solve our our offensive woes.

1. Cambell had the 4th-most sacks of any QB in the league...and he still had the best QB rating of the other QBs not named Cassell.

2. Cutler had the exact same completion % as Campbell--62.3%.--despite being sacked 27 fewer times than Campbell.

3. Campbell had the fewest 40+ yd. passes of any QB that started 16 games except David Garrard...3.

And on ALL 3 passes--the game-winning TD against NO, the sideline bomb in Dallas, and the TD pass to Moss against DET--Cambell HAD TO AVOID A RUSHER COMING FREE to complete the pass.

It would be easy to blame the OL problems solely on injuries--most of us here have seen the documented drop-off in our rushing game after the injuries. However, the pass protection from the OL up to that point wasn't exactly sterling--16 sacks through the first 8 games.

There probably are a lot of reasons for this poor performance by the OL..including injury, the switchover to zone-blocking pass protection, the lack of a tall WR consistently gaining separation downfield in time, etc. But giving up 4 sacks to STL and 3 to DET last year is inexcusable, regardless of the justifications.

Again, I reiterate that we would be foolish not to at least consider trading for a young pro-bowl QB if he's available.

But, you got to make sure you have the philosophy, personnel and coaching to prevent your QB(whoever it may be) from being on his back more often than not.

As Bill Cosby once said, "you don't serve a porterhouse steak on a garbage can lid"....let's hope we have the right dishware to go with our "main course"--whoever that turns out to be.

[terpskins10]

I think most everyone has their mind made up. I don't see it changing unless Campbell goes out and throws for 25 TDs and 3500 yards, warranting an extension. I think he can do it, but I'm in the very small minority.

[SirClintonPortis]

I think most everyone has their mind made up. I don't see it changing unless Campbell goes out and throws for 25 TDs and 3500 yards, warranting an extension. I think he can do it, but I'm in the very small minority.

Maybe on this forum. thewarpath.net has a more pro-campbell slant though. GTripp0012 had some nice game analyses there too.

[Mooka]

Campbell was the 4th most sacked QB, but as a team the Redskins were tied for 10th in sacks given up.

[bigyim]

I think most everyone has their mind made up. I don't see it changing unless Campbell goes out and throws for 25 TDs and 3500 yards, warranting an extension. I think he can do it, but I'm in the very small minority.

The real question is, can he do it with this offense as currently constituted?

He may not...but there's evidence to suggest that he wouldn't be solely to blame. And that other QBs effective elsewhere would have similar difficulties with the Redskins.

[TheGuru10]

I'm a JC fan, but he also contributed to some of those sacks by holding onto the ball too long. The fact that everyone talks about the # of sacks and wants to blame the OL or Campbell is missing the point. It was the first year of a new offensive system and you have to expect some growing pains with that. That includes a high number of sacks. Both the OL, WR's and JC were all at times thinking instead of reacting. Just that half a second of indecision is the time it takes to miss a block, cut a route short or fail to check down on a blitz fast enough.

The expectations are just too high and a lot of that was because of the 6-2 start. But once teams got film on us and we were forced to expand the game plan each week the thinking started and the reactions slowed.

This year is pivotal for JC because he shouldn't be thinking nearly enough, the line is largely intact and the WR's have another year under there belt. I don't think he needs to put up ridiculous passing numbers to stay but I think he does need to show improvement by getting rid of the ball quicker, spreading the ball around to more WR's and getting the ball downfield more frequently.

[bigyim]

Campbell was the 4th most sacked QB, but as a team the Redskins were tied for 10th in sacks given up.

Thanks for picking that up...I missed that modification.

Looking at the teams that were the most sacked, it seems that the only ones who had a winning record--NE, PIT MIN--also had a avg. yard per attempt of over 7.0.

I think the Vikings, out of that group, is the only team that runs a traditional WCO like we do here.

Not sure what that says, though...it's too late to analyze (as demonstrated by my faux pas with team sacks).

[TheGuru10]

Of the top 15 teams in sacks against last year, only Rothlesberger had played in his teams offensive system for more than 2 years. Seattle is in there as well but MH missed most of the year due to injury.

On the other side, of the bottom 15 teams in sacks allowed, only Matt Ryan had less than 5 years starting experience in the league or 2+ years in his teams offense.

The OLine can't be a sieve but the QB's experience can do a lot to eliminate the number of sacks a team has. Getting rid of the ball quicker, hitting his check downs, buying time in the pocket with just a small step up or to the side or knowing when to throw it away all eliminate the negative yardage play, give receivers more time to get open and enable the QB to throw downfield.

Look at NE, with virtually the same line they went from 21 sacks with Brady in 2007 to 48 in 2008 with Cassel. Is that the OLines fault?

[Oldfan]

When Tony Romo sits to pee replaced Drew Bledsoe, the Cowboys line suddenly got a lot better. Jay Cutler has more ability than Romo sits to pee. His ability allowed Shanahan to use lots of rollouts and boots to make it more difficult for the defense to sack his QB.

Aside from their rookie, Clady, the Broncos O line is no better than ours but they allowed only 11 sacks last season, I believe.

Jason Campbell will get better at picking up the hot reads on blitzes with experience, but he doesn't have the natural ability of a Romo sits to pee or Cutler to avoid sacks and keep plays alive.

[Lavarleap56]

Gotta be the line. Jason Campbell is a god so ive been told.:hysterical:

[Lavarleap56]

oh man when Drew Bledsoe was in New England he was getting his head knocked off 2. Bledsoe goes down to injury and in comes a young Tom Brady and the line was pretty damn good.

[elkabong82]

I wish good conversations like this happened more frequently around here. It's nice to see both sides bringing up valid points and actually discussing them.

I for one think JC does need to continue to improve, and that quickening his play at QB will be a huge step. Not all the sacks are on the OL, but I'd say the majority are. People tend to forget or cast aside the fact that everyone on offense was learning the new system, and that there will always be growing pains with that. We performed really well, then hit a wall. It's up to the team to get over that wall and become a team that can finish. This means improvement from ALL our players. At the very least Campbell has shown improvement every season.

A great QB can mask problems on the OL. But a terrible OL can also kill a QB before he can become great. Both the QB and OL need to improve. We need younger guys on the line, and JC needs to quicken his game speed by being so comfortable with the system it's second nature to him, like riding a bike. If he can reach that level and maintain it as the playbook expands, he's going to prove a lot of people wrong. Heck, I think he started to do just that in the first half of '08. Hopefully he, and the entire team, can finish this season.

[RIPSean]

Look at NE, with virtually the same line they went from 21 sacks with Brady in 2007 to 48 in 2008 with Cassel. Is that the OLines fault?

Good point.

[wildbill1952]

Additional factors: new receivers who don't always run precise routes. If your receiver is supposed to run an 11 yard curl and instead runs a 9 yard curl the ball is overthrown. Or the opposite: a 9 yard curl becomes an 11 yard curl and the ball is thrown short. Or the QB, without trust in the receiver, waits to see where he's going to cut this time and holds the ball instead of throwing to a spot.

The point is, it's a team game. The offense is half the team and the OLine 5/11 of that team. I'm sure JC has his share of the blame, but only Zorn and the receivers coaches know when the WR screwed up. I don't and neither do 99% of the posters here.

With OLine, unfortunately, the only time 99% of fans see them or know they exist is when they screw up. It's always on instant replay. Plus it's pretty apparent when the guy he was supposed to block is laying on top of the QB.

Hopefully, another year in the offense with the rookie WR's will make a difference also. But even picking a great OT with #13 leaves the OLine a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

[SolidSnake84]

Oh i remember in 2005 so, so many of you declared that we would win the superbowl for sure, as soon as the great, invincible JC was put behind center.

Now, 4 seasons later, we still struggle at the QB position. Have we settled for mediocrity? Whatever Campbell could do for us redskins, he already has. Try again, D.C.

What would have happened to JC if Todd Collins somehow got us into the superbowl, during that 07 season? Even if we had lost, would they have ran JC out of town? I think so... That season only made me realize how bad JC really is. Heck even the Almighty Gibbs admitted after the season that he was thinking of benching Jason anyway prior to the injury..

[Xempt]

I may come across as a Campbell supporter...but, honestly, I wouldn't mind the rumored Cutler trade. I just think that, in light of some of these stats from 2008, that getting Cutler wouldn't solve our our offensive woes.

1. Cambell had the 4th-most sacks of any QB in the league...and he still had the best QB rating of the other QBs not named Cassell.

2. Cutler had the exact same completion % as Campbell--62.3%.--despite being sacked 27 fewer times than Campbell.

3. Campbell had the fewest 40+ yd. passes of any QB that started 16 games except David Garrard...3.

And on ALL 3 passes--the game-winning TD against NO, the sideline bomb in Dallas, and the TD pass to Moss against DET--Cambell HAD TO AVOID A RUSHER COMING FREE to complete the pass.

It would be easy to blame the OL problems solely on injuries--most of us here have seen the documented drop-off in our rushing game after the injuries. However, the pass protection from the OL up to that point wasn't exactly sterling--16 sacks through the first 8 games.

There probably are a lot of reasons for this poor performance by the OL..including injury, the switchover to zone-blocking pass protection, the lack of a tall WR consistently gaining separation downfield in time, etc. But giving up 4 sacks to STL and 3 to DET last year is inexcusable, regardless of the justifications.

Again, I reiterate that we would be foolish not to at least consider trading for a young pro-bowl QB if he's available.

But, you got to make sure you have the philosophy, personnel and coaching to prevent your QB(whoever it may be) from being on his back more often than not.

As Bill Cosby once said, "you don't serve a porterhouse steak on a garbage can lid"....let's hope we have the right dishware to go with our "main course"--whoever that turns out to be.

everything you said points to OLINE problems, how do you come up with campbell being the problem? sure he aint perfect and can perform better, but you dont do a good job of supporting your case that campbells more the problem than the oline. think about how many more turnovers cutler would have had behind our bad oline than he did with a good oline.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Argh, how many of those sacks were from Campbell not delivering the ball on time? West Coast offensive schemes thrive on quick drops and quick releases. I don't recall JC being able to ever do that. When was the last play you saw where JC dropped back 3 steps and threw a ball, on time, on the money, hitting a receiver in stride for a big gain?

I don't think I've ever seen it.

Timing is everything in this system. Are you telling me its the O line's fault for and they can't protect the QB for a 3 step drop? No ****ing way. I don't care if they lined up U of MD as the O line against the Giants. JC would still have time to take a simple three step drop and release the ball.

[DGREENHULK]

I think most everyone has their mind made up. I don't see it changing unless Campbell goes out and throws for 25 TDs and 3500 yards, warranting an extension. I think he can do it, but I'm in the very small minority.

I'm with you most have their minds made up, but I like you think JC can reach those numbers to warrant an extension

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Statistics, darn statistics.

Rather than reply with the benefits that a much better QB can bring to an ageing O-line, as has been done ad nauseam, not least in this thread, let's go on what the OP posted.

He mentioned about Jason completing only 3 passes over 40 yards, and within those three, having serious pressure on his ass to make the pass.

Let's compare those stats, with QB's who got sacked 30 times or more last year.

In descending order of the most sacked QB's:

Matt Cassel: The Pats QB was sacked 9 more times than Jason last year, yet still managed, from 10 more attempts than Jason, to complete 3 more passes over the mid range 20+ yard area, and 3 more in the 40+ yard range. Oh, and throw for 8 more of those 6 point thingie's.

Ben Roethlesberger: Besides leading his team to #1, the Steelers QB was sacked 8 more times than Jason in '08, yet still somehow managed, from 38 less attempts than JC, 1 more pass completion in the 20+ yard range, and 4 more over 40 yards. Oh, and throw for 4 more TD's.

David Gerrard: The Jags QB was sacked 4 more times than Jason last year, yet somehow, from 29 more attempts than JC, completed 8 more passes in the mid range 20+ yard bracket, admittedly he was 2 down on JC in the 40+ yard range, but still came up with 2 more TD's.

Aaron Rodgers: The Packers QB was sacked 4 times less than Campbell last year, yet still produced 14 more completions over 20 yards, and 13 more over 40 yards, from only 30 more attempts. With 15 more TD's to boot.

Wasn't last year Aaron's first season of real playing time? Heck knows how he managed that production without at the very least, 2 years playing time in the system huh? :doh:

Joe Flaco: The Ravens rookie QB was sacked 6 times less than Jason last year, yet still put up 3 more completions over 20 yards, and 7 more over 40, from 78 less attempts. With 1 more thrown TD to boot.

A rookie, in the first year of a new system, at pro level..... how can this be? Doesn't it take at the very least, 2 or even 3 years in the same system? :doh:

Brett Favre: The Jets QB was put on his behind 8 times less than Jason, yet still managed 6 more completions of 20 or more yards, and 4 more of 40 or more, from 16 more attempts. And he put up 9 more TD's.

All the more strange, considering, like Flaco, he was in the first year of a new system. :doh:

To be "fair" , if that's the word, to Jason, Marc Bulger and Ryan Fitzpatrick were also sacked the same amount of times, 38, in 2008, and he put up slightly better #'s than the two of them.

And the above is just the QB's sacked 30 or more times last year, without even starting on what a far better QB can do for an O-line.

How come the above 6 players could all move the ball and put up points behind VERY porous lines, with not that much more weapons, if any, than we have in DC?

No one doubts that the Redskins line needs addressing, as the receiving core could do with an upgrade. But the factor the current starting QB play's in all of this is MAJOR, and to suggest other wise is either to view the situation through B&G tinted glasses, or to bury one's head in the sand.

And still the excuses go on..... :doh:

Hail.

[Veretax]

I'm a JC fan, but he also contributed to some of those sacks by holding onto the ball too long. The fact that everyone talks about the # of sacks and wants to blame the OL or Campbell is missing the point. It was the first year of a new offensive system and you have to expect some growing pains with that. That includes a high number of sacks. Both the OL, WR's and JC were all at times thinking instead of reacting. Just that half a second of indecision is the time it takes to miss a block, cut a route short or fail to check down on a blitz fast enough.

Another example, how much of JC's problems in the last half of the year are on Campbell? How much is on Zorn not making the right adjustments? There are far too many variables last year to say it was or was not JC's fault.

Of the top 15 teams in sacks against last year, only Rothlesberger had played in his teams offensive system for more than 2 years. Seattle is in there as well but MH missed most of the year due to injury.

On the other side, of the bottom 15 teams in sacks allowed, only Matt Ryan had less than 5 years starting experience in the league or 2+ years in his teams offense.

The OLine can't be a sieve but the QB's experience can do a lot to eliminate the number of sacks a team has. Getting rid of the ball quicker, hitting his check downs, buying time in the pocket with just a small step up or to the side or knowing when to throw it away all eliminate the negative yardage play, give receivers more time to get open and enable the QB to throw downfield.

Look at NE, with virtually the same line they went from 21 sacks with Brady in 2007 to 48 in 2008 with Cassel. Is that the OLines fault?

Right, the same line that was exposed in the Super Bowl against the Giants. The Giants figured out how to exploit the Pats O-Line, and you know when Brady went down, the defenses probably began to cheat up to force Cassel to try and beat them. So yes and now, it is partly the O-lines fault (It's the o-lines fault that the Giants pressured brady so much in the super bowl.) But having a young or inexperienced QB also puts pressure on the O-line Because many defenses salivate for a chance to go after raw QBs.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

On these here pages the past week alone, the O-line myth's been countered and de-bunked, same with the lack of perceived weapons, time in a system, INT's over TD's et all, and yet STILL the excuses reign down to defend the VERY average play of the starting QB of the Washington Redskins.

Seriously, I don't get it.

I'm all for loyalty and defending our own and all, but when after 4, now entering 5 years in, those same repeated excuses are coming out EVERY close season to try vainly defend the guy, there come a point when you have to be honest to yourself and, rather than blame EVERYTHING but, look AT the guy in question.

Seriously, I don't get it.

Hail.

[SirClintonPortis]

Oh wait, Terrell Suggs came practically untouched to hit Campbell's arm on that pass that got picked off by Ed Reed, but it's Campbell's fault?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Oh wait, Terrell Suggs came practically untouched to hit Campbell's arm on that pass that got picked off by Ed Reed, but it's Campbell's fault?

Point in case. :doh:

Hail.

[SirClintonPortis]

Point in case. :doh:

Hail.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d1f306

Tape says it all about the specific play.

[Mahons21]

Gibbbs Hog Heaven you really hit the hammer on the head, I don't know what it will take for fans to see that Campbell isn't the franchise qb necessary to compete in the NFL season after season. Yes Campbell can succeed if all the pieces around him fit perfectly, but a franchise qb overcomes adversity and leads there team, Campbell hasn't done this and judging by history won't do this.