NavyDave Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_maryland_immigrant_licenses.html?source=mypi Last updated March 19, 2009 3:40 p.m. PT Md. mulls denying licenses to illegal immigrants By KATHLEEN MILLER ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER ANNAPOLIS, Md. -- In an online Spanish language chat room, people from all over the East Coast seek tips on how to get driver's licenses in Maryland even though they don't live there. Businesses run classified ads in Spanish-language publications in Washington, D.C., Virginia and Maryland urging "undocumented Hispanic friends" to take advantage of the opportunity to get Maryland ID without having to prove they're in the country legally. In one case, Maryland motor vehicle officials say, 68 different people applying for licenses and IDs gave the same address for an 800-square-foot home in Baltimore. Maryland is one of just four states - and the only one east of the Mississippi - where people don't have to prove they're legal U.S. residents to get driver's licenses. Some lawmakers are pushing to change that this year, arguing that Maryland's rules make it a target for fraud by undocumented people from all over the U.S. But advocates here and in other states with similar rules - Hawaii, New Mexico and Washington - argue that allowing illegal immigrants to get state-issued identification gives police broader databases to use when investigating crimes and increases the rate of auto insurance coverage. "It makes the streets safer for all of us," said Delegate Jolene Ivey, a Democrat from Prince George's County who supports continued access to Maryland licenses for undocumented residents. The problem, say officials with Maryland's Motor Vehicle Administration, is that they've been overwhelmed with requests for identification appointments as other states have tightened requirements. A Department of Legislative Services analysis assumed the state issued about 6,700 licenses and ID cards to illegal immigrants in 2008, but cautioned exact statistics are tough to nail down. Between July 2007 and June 2008, the MVA issued roughly 508,000 new licenses and 170,000 ID cards. State Motor Vehicle Administration Chief John Kuo says the demand has outpaced the state's foreign-born population growth. A toll-free number to book license appointments for non-citizens received 1 million attempted calls from all over the country in its first day of operation last year. The state, which only has 5.6 million residents, now limits hot line access to people calling from Maryland. "Because of Maryland's status nationally, the number of fraud attempts at Maryland MVA remains a serious challenge," state transportation officials said in written testimony in favor of changing the policy, noting fraud cases shot up 478 percent between 2003 and 2007. Maryland Delegate Ron George, R-Anne Arundel, says the license policy is cheapening the value of a state ID for other residents. Some states, such as Arizona, Colorado and Oklahoma, now require extra proof of identification before they'll license people relocating from states that issue ID to illegal immigrants. "It's not good," said George, who has twice tried and failed to get the legislature to require state officials to ensure license applicants are in the U.S. legally. "Our residents deserve licenses that are on an even playing field with other states." George is trying again this year, this time with support from Democratic Gov. Martin O'Malley and other Democrats. Advocates for maintaining the current policy, such as Delegate Ana Sol Gutierrez and the immigrant advocacy group CASA of Maryland, have attempted to fight fraud on their own. In interviews with Spanish-language publications earlier this year, Gutierrez warned that some ID fraud is a felony. More important, she told the paper El Comercio, fraud "closes doors for those who actually live in Maryland." Kim Propeack, a spokeswoman for CASA, says her organization's research found that one of the cheaper firms charges a $150 fee to robocall license hot lines just to get license appointments. State officials "know there are private companies that are selling appointments, selling in-state addresses, and they have done nothing to combat those companies," Propeack said. She said scammers even loiter at Motor Vehicle Administration offices, offering to sell Maryland addresses to people from other states. Propeack said CASA has asked state officials to reach out to foreign-language media and to change its documents to inform people there is no reason to hire anyone to get a license. The group also discourages undocumented immigrants from other states from trying to get Maryland IDs. "This is a right that has been fought for and obtained by people living in Maryland," Propeack said. "When people call us from other states and ask for information about Maryland licenses, we tell them to go lobby for the right in their home state." --- Read House Bill 387: http://mlis.state.md.us/2009rs/fnotes/bil-0007/hb0387.pdf --- On the Net: Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration: http://mva.state.md.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I have no problem with them denying licenses (or ID, for that matter) to illegals. For one thing, as far as I'm concerned, step 1 of getting a DL (or ID) is to walk into a marked, government building, walk up to a person who is at least arguably a law enforcement officer, and answer the question "Who are you?". And prove your answer. How does an illegal prove his identity without also proving, to a law enforcement officer, in writing, that he's breaking the law? Show them a passport? Without them noticing the expiration date on the visa? (Or the fact that it's missing, entirely?) Hand over a birth certificate from some other country, without any means of verifying that you are, in fact, the person on this birth certificate? Isn't an illegal walking into a DMV and handing over your real identification a little like showing up for your behind the wheel, drunk? But, near as I can tell, their only alternative is identity theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 The last thing we need on our roads are a bunch of illegal Albert Gonzalez Hayneworths that don't Habla 55. Its bad enough with the Floridians, Cali and Ohio drivers when there is an inch of snow on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 The last thing we need on our roads are a bunch of illegal Albert Gonzalez Hayneworths that don't Habla 55.Its bad enough with the Floridians, Cali and Ohio drivers when there is an inch of snow on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I think that it is an excellent idea and I am surprised that MD is doing this before VA. I know that VA is now a blue state, but MD has been blue a lot longer and enforcing something like this would seem to go against MD's blue nature. I'm also for imposing an English comprehension test along with the vision test. It doesn't need to be super hard, but knowing words like "stop", "school crossing" and "speed limit" is rather essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 1) Observing that Larry wants to deny government services to illegals, and NavyDave wants the government to provide them. 2) ND, when Joe Illegal walks up to the counter, how do you propose that the government verify that he is who he claims he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 So, we have people who can't get a liscence now Of course they won't actually drive anywhere, since they are all law abiding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 1) Observing that Larry wants to deny government services to illegals, and NavyDave wants the government to provide them. 2) ND, when Joe Illegal walks up to the counter, how do you propose that the government verify that he is who he claims he is? Huh?? No I don't There shouldn't be illegals here in the first place with access to getting a license or buying a house as well as voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 You're right, Ohio Drivers suck driving on clear days around here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81artmonk Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Great!! I hope they go through with it. Here is Cali, they have been trying for years to get DL's for illegals. I don't see why those who break the law should have ANY priviledges at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IONTOP Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow... Let these idiots try it... It'll just lead to back alley coat hanger licenses to illegals... You think that would be "safer"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Huh?? No I don't Sorry. When I read the stereotypes in your post, I thought you were claiming that you wanted illegals to get licenses, because this would make them safer drivers. But on re-reading, I guess you were trying to claim that if the government doesn't give them licenses, then they won't drive. (If you'd actually expend more words on stating your point and fewer on stereotypes, I'd probably comprehend your point more often.) Still, I guess this means this thread is one of those rare Tailgate moments in which we agree, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow... Let these idiots try it... It'll just lead to back alley coat hanger licenses to illegals... You think that would be "safer"? I was actually going to point out the parallels between this issue and another one we're familiar with: The "they're going to do it anyway" argument. If you believe that people who were willing to penetrate the borders of our country, and then go through the hurdles we place on them to exist in the country illegally, aren't going to let their lack of proper documentation prevent them from becoming "undocumented drivers" . . . . . Then, would you rather have them go down to DMV and at least learn enough to pass the test? Or just skip it, and drive without it? (I guess that means that on this issue, I lean more towards the "but I don't want the government to be endorsing their undesirable behavior" side of the issue.) But on the DL issue, I can see the validity of the theory that allowing them to get DLs will result in safer roads. (I just don't agree with it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow... Let these idiots try it... It'll just lead to back alley coat hanger licenses to illegals... You think that would be "safer"? :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedskinFeathers Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Just because some one has a driver's license doesn't mean they can drive...kinda scary when you think about who has a license in this country, legal or not. Anyway, there's no way I can imagine supporting illegal immigrants getting driver's licenses...when they enter this country legally they may have the rights they deserve, until then....no. And to the "they'll drive anyway" arguments, well we can only pray to God that they don't crash and injure or kill an innocent person because they are too selfish to care about the potential repercussions of their actions. Allowing illegals to obtain driver's licenses because you think they'll drive anyway is ridiculous. You don't bend the laws for people because you assume they'll break them. Teach them to drive? How about ask them to leave until they come back legally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Maryland needs to fix this and tighten up on it. If you are here in the country illegally you shouldn't be able to get a driver's licence. The DL is the main source of ID used. It doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 the key word is "illegal". why should they have the same rights as me if they aren't here "legally"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 If your an illegal immagrant, you should not have the right to get a driver's licence in this country. I don't buy the arguement that it's "easier to keep records on them". They have to come better then that, and what it really sounds like is the road to amnesty. Stop lying to us about your intentions and just do it already so you keep track of them paying taxes them, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yeah, if you have a record on them you need to boot them out... otherwise, you can't call them illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 CASA de MD is a huge pro-latino of any kind lobby group in MD. They do not care one bit about legal status. They are a large part why MD has such ridiculous policies. Easy solution is requiring a valid birth certificate. If that BC is from another country you must provide other documentation of being here legally. Level playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm trying to figure out how this could happen anyways? I couldn't get anything from the Maryland DMV without coming back 30 times due to some document not being provided or some other rediculous reason why they must torment me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I have no problem with them denying licenses (or ID, for that matter) to illegals. For one thing, as far as I'm concerned, step 1 of getting a DL (or ID) is to walk into a marked, government building, walk up to a person who is at least arguably a law enforcement officer, and answer the question "Who are you?". And prove your answer. How does an illegal prove his identity without also proving, to a law enforcement officer, in writing, that he's breaking the law? Show them a passport? Without them noticing the expiration date on the visa? (Or the fact that it's missing, entirely?) Hand over a birth certificate from some other country, without any means of verifying that you are, in fact, the person on this birth certificate? Isn't an illegal walking into a DMV and handing over your real identification a little like showing up for your behind the wheel, drunk? But, near as I can tell, their only alternative is identity theft. From the story: In one case, Maryland motor vehicle officials say, 68 different people applying for licenses and IDs gave the same address for an 800-square-foot home in Baltimore.Maryland is one of just four states - and the only one east of the Mississippi - where people don't have to prove they're legal U.S. residents to get driver's licenses. Some lawmakers are pushing to change that this year, arguing that Maryland's rules make it a target for fraud by undocumented people from all over the U.S. If I understand your question correctly, you're asking how does an illegal immigrant walk into the DMV and not get busted for being an illegal immigrant, it sounds like MD has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. They probably just require a picture ID and a bill or two with your name and address on it. The said illegal immigrant can get a picture ID from a job site or any number of places besides a government agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Easy solution is requiring a valid birth certificate. Do you know what all the valid birth certificates from all states look like for the past 50+ years? That the state Driving License issued by Selma Bouvier at the local DMV is the de facto national ID is a problem for security. DMVs are not resourced to perform rigorous and proper identity checks. Their job is to administer state motor vehicle policy, not to be the Department of Homeland Security. I don't know if denying an illegal immigrant a DL will affect their driving behavior (they've already entered the country illegally and presumably provided fake ID for employment), but it seems as ever like we are trying to solve the wrong problem. The local DMV is not the place where we should be trying to solve the immigration problem. What next, we ask the utilities to ask for proof of legal presence before they provide service? How about for a start we aggressively enforce employment law and provide the employers with better systems for verifying work authorization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Do you know what all the valid birth certificates from all states look like for the past 50+ years?Not a clue, but it's required for a passport so a precedent is there. Plus it is not singling out anyone. Everyone must provide one. Right now there is NO REQUIREMENT whatsoever to get a license except address. Seems ridiculous to me. Even without the "illegal" issue there should be a better process.You are lost on this issue. DMV provides a MAJOR service. Asking to require some sort of proper identification is hardly assigning them a difficult or unnecessary task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Not a clue, but it's required for a passport so a precedent is there. Fair enough, are you prepared to have the same cost and service for a driver's license as a passport? You are lost on this issue. DMV provides a MAJOR service. Asking to require some sort of proper identification is hardly assigning them a difficult or unnecessary task. You're missing the point. It's the Department of Motor Vehicles. With a budget appropriate for administering motor vehicle policy. The fact that other people use their issued driving license as a de facto Federal ID is not their problem. They are not resourced to provide more than a cursory check of name and address. To properly check for ID all DMV clerks would need training in the appearance of all the valid 'official' forms of ID from all 50 states, together with acceptable valid Federal IDs. If you want a passport-level document and ID check associated with the state DL then you have to decide who pays for it and accept a longer wait in getting your driving permit issued and renewed. Many Americans don't want to have to produce an original birth cert in order to get or renew a driving permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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