IbleedBnG83 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Homosexuality is more of a problem for religious folks than it is for atheists it would seem. One of a religious background shouldn't or wouldn't want to be judged or discriminated against because of their religious preference, neither should those who live a particular life style that is neither harmful to others or them selves. Sounds a lot like something Jesus might have said...at least to that affect;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The question of perfection to me is raised when you can say take the book litteraly and do what it says because its 100% right and at the same time say don't do what it says because its wrong. If you establish that there are inaccuracys in the word then you can't say its perfect. You could say it was perfect for the day it was written but you are in a sense actually saying its no longer perfect if you think that it doesn't fit in with today's way of thinking. And since were not taking everything litterally that's in the bible who's to say that homosexuality is not one of those things that changed with age and shouldn't be ignored as well? It is possible to take the Bible literally without being hyper-literal. One can, for instance, believe that Jesus literally rode a donkey into Jerusalem, yet not believe that he was literally a door. The correct approach is to read the literal parts literally, the metaphorical parts metaphorically, and the parables, uh, parabolically (math meets theology ). Usually, that's pretty straughtforward. Sometimes, reasonable people can disagree about which is which. None of this, though, has any bearing on the perfection of the original. If we make a mistake in reading it, that doesn't mean it's wrong. No I don't remember- but what specifically am I ignoring?Serious question. The reason I ask, a friend of mine (coworker actually, not so much a friend), married, 2 kids, is currently having an affair. He is also a devout Methodist. He tells me openly about it, with the understanding I won't tell his wife of course. Because she wouldn't understand. ..... Wait, are you asking me if there are passages in the Bible that condemn adultery? Exodus 20:14 (English Standard Version) 14(A) "You shall not commit adultery. Jeremiah 7:8-10 (English Standard Version) 8"Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. 9(A) Will you steal, murder, commit adultery,( swear falsely,© make offerings to Baal,(D) and go after other gods that you have not known, 10and then come and stand before me in this house,(E) which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'—only to go on doing all these abominations? Matthew 15:18-20 (English Standard Version)18But(A) what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19For out of the heart come( evil thoughts,© murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness,(D) slander. 20(E) These are what defile a person. But(F) to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone." Romans 2:21-23 (English Standard Version)21(A) you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you( rob temples? 23You who© boast in the law(D) dishonor God by breaking the law. James 2:10-12 (English Standard Version)10For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point(A) has become accountable for all of it. 11For he who said,( "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under© the law of liberty. 2 Peter 2:13-15 (English Standard Version)13suffering wrong as(A) the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure( to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,[a] while© they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adultery,(D) insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts(E) trained in greed.(F) Accursed children! 15Forsaking the right way,(G) they have gone astray. They have followed(H) the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved(I) gain from wrongdoing, That's just a partial list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Remember how I was talking earlier about people that ignore the text and context in order to avoid giving something up?People that try to excuse premarital sex using this kind of logic are doing precisely that. Adultery must include a married person. Zoony is not warping anything at all. It is not adultery if two never before married individuals are involved. That would be fornication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Agnosticism is never wrong. Never right either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How do you know? Have you been to Saint Peter's gates and asked him the qualifications? I'm not saying gays are damned or saved one way or the other because I don't know. But the thing is, nobody knows who is going to Heaven or Hell and why. I know because the Bible says that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I believe the Bible by faith, and because I am convinced that the evidence points to the existence of God in general, and in particular that Jesus was God, as he claimed. I also know that the Bible says that we're all sinners, and that there's no "but gays can't get into Heaven" provision. That doesn't mean that homosexual activity isn't a sin, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Never right either... "You can't prove it" is usually right... just not a very satisfying kind of right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 "You can't prove it" is usually right... just not a very satisfying kind of right. I was thinking more along the lines of "I don't know and neither do you" not being right or wrong. A not very satisfying middle ground if you will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Lesbians have nothing to worry about... gay sex is between two men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I was thinking more along the lines of "I don't know and neither do you" not being right or wrong. A not very satisfying middle ground if you will... Depends on how militant you want to be about it, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinz4Life12 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Share Posted February 24, 2009 81 has yet to chime back into the discussion i see.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Why is homosexuality singled out for so much attention? It's ok to support war, greed, and pride but homosexuality is somehow a bigger deal? I don't buy it. Homosexuality is a safe sin to talk about. Non-gays are in no danger of it and thus can rant about it all day if they like with no fear of falling into it themselves. Jesus was pretty straight forward about the qualifications: 31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at His right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’ 41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’ It is not about who is gay, who believes, or any of that bull****. You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works.{2:19} You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. You aren't just called to pay lip service and go to church. You are called to HELP PEOPLE IN NEED. Not march against gays, not march against muslims, not anything negative at all. You believe in Christ Jesus? Help your fellow man. Love god and love your fellow man. That's the point. All the legalism BS arguments in the world are great but Jesus in his own words spoke clearly as to who gets in and who doesn't. No man is free of sin but some sinful unworthy ****s find it in their hearts to help others at great cost to themselves. They are the righteous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Depends on how militant you want to be about it, really. Not very... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackest Eyes Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 It seems that the only reason people disagree with homosexuality is because of religious reasons. I am willing to bet that without religious affiliations, people would not have an issue with it. I would like to know how many atheists and agnostics have an issue with homosexuality. I would then like to know how many religious people have an issue with it. I don't know why it is a such a big deal if two men or two women (and no one can say its okay because its two women...completely invalid argument) want to have a relationship with one another. Are people in disagreement because homosexuality has an impact on their life? Or are people just upset because their religious beliefs tell them it is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Why is homosexuality singled out for so much attention? Because that's the topic of this thread? I'm happy to tell you that your cheerful endorsement of fornication is wrong too, if it makes you feel better. *EDIT* As to the rest, Catholics and Protestants disagree on the exact relationship between faith and works, but all agree that both are present in the saved. Your "works only" position (which is not shared by any church I am aware of, Catholic, Protestant, whatever), is flawed and ignores the whole of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 My question is..why is same sex marriage a problem? What threat does it pose to "traditional marriage". If all marriages must be approved by the government (and not the church), why is the government denying same sex marriages? Is it based on a religious text? Is their a threat to the common good involved? What legal basis is used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackest Eyes Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 My question is..why is same sex marriage a problem? What threat does it pose to "traditional marriage".If all marriages must be approved by the government (and not the church), why is the government denying same sex marriages? Is it based on a religious text? Is their a threat to the common good involved? What legal basis is used? I think same sex marriage is a problem because of the word marriage. Religious people are bent out of shape because marriage is defined as between as a man and a woman and if two dudes are getting hitched, well, the meaning has changed. At least that is how I see it. I could be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 81 has yet to chime back into the discussion i see.. Perhaps there is a God after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Because that's the topic of this thread?Yeah it's not a major national focus or anything. *EDIT* As to the rest, Catholics and Protestants disagree on the exact relationship between faith and works, but all agree that both are present in the saved. Your "works only" position (which is not shared by any church I am aware of, Catholic, Protestant, whatever), is flawed and ignores the whole of Scripture. No where did I say works ONLY. There are exceptions the bible talks about. No where does the bible instruct you to ignore Jesus however and Jesus says very clearly that those that are confronted with a situation and choose not to help are screwed. They can believe all they like and it's not enough. They were tested in life and they failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How can anyone take the Bible so seriously is beyond me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Yeah it's not a major national focus or anything. Well, it isn't for me. No where did I say works ONLY. There are exceptions the bible talks about. No where does the bible instruct you to ignore Jesus however. Jesus says very clearly that those that believe and without works... are screwed. Let's read that James passage you quoted in context. James 2 (English Standard Version)14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith(S) but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15(T) If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16(U) and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith(V) apart from your works, and I will show you my faith(W) by my works. 19(X) You believe that God is one; you do well. Even(Y) the demons believe—and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21(Z) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that(AA) faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed(AB) by his works; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says,(AC) "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a(AD) friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way was not also(AE) Rahab the prostitute justified by works(AF) when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. What James is saying here is that a faith that does not lead to works is no faith at all. Jesus says something similar when he says that we can know a tree by its fruits. This makes sense... it's impossible to imagine a person with a legitimate faith in God not acting on His commandments to do good works. Don't make the mistake of counting faith out of the equation, though. James, in this very passage, talks about his faith. Jesus himself talks about the necessity of faith in him: John 8 (English Standard Version)21So he said to them again, (AE) "I am going away, and(AF) you will seek me, and(AG) you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." 22So the Jews said,(AH) "Will he kill himself, since he says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23He said to them, (AI) "You are from below; I am from above.(AJ) You are of this world;(AK) I am not of this world. 24I told you that you(AL) would die in your sins, for(AM) unless you believe that(AN) I am he you will die in your sins." and of course... John 3 (English Standard Version)16"For(AA) God so loved(AB) the world,(AC) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(AD) perish but have eternal life. 17For(AE) God did not send his Son into the world(AF) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18(AG) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not(AH) believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19(AI) And this is the judgment:AJ) the light has come into the world, and(AK) people loved the darkness rather than the light because(AL) their works were evil. 20(AM) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light,(AN) lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever(AO) does what is true(AP) comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." and Romans 10 (English Standard Version)5For(E) Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that(F) the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But(G) the righteousness based on faith says,(H) "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the(I) abyss?'" (that is,(J) to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say?(K) "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if(L) you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and(M) believe in your heart(N) that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says,(O) "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12(P) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek;(Q) for the same Lord is Lord of all,® bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For(S) "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." and Ephesians 2:8-9 (English Standard Version)8For(A) by grace you have been saved( through faith. And this is© not your own doing;(D) it is the gift of God, 9(E) not a result of works,(F) so that no one may boast. And so, as I said, regardless of one's exact position on the relationship between works and faith, it is clear that it is faith in Jesus that saves, and to ignore that is to ignore Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How can anyone take the Bible so seriously is beyond me... Well, like I said before, I take the Bible seriously by faith and because the evidence points to Jesus being God, which leads me to think that what he said might have been important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 oh, and for fun....read the ENTIRE book of leviticus...it's a good read.Indeed. I love how the homophobes pick and choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I just keyword searched the bible for "accept people for who they are" and got zero results. Sorry. You sure the search function is working? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoles11 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I've tried to fight this battle before but in the end you have to realize what you are up against. Certain people believe that even if we aren't religious or of their faith that we should all still believe what their book, the bible, tells them. If someone wants to believe you're going to hell because you don't mind gay people or even if you are gay, then hell let them worry about it. In the end, you're just going to end up banging your head against the wall trying to have a logically discussion with someone that uses the bible to answer questions as if it's the ultimate truth. They deny us that are not religious and or not of that faith to question whether the bible is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Indeed. I love how the homophobes pick and choose. Well, this ought to be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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