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Homosexuality Discussion Continued..


Skinz4Life12

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nah man, i mean the word fag. it comes off as dumb and cheapens whatever point he tries to make.

isnt that what the "***" means?

edit: i did finish it though...

Oh no. It's gay. Go to the link.

What happened was when I have to format text I can't on here (long story involving computers, the internet and security settings that I can't figure out how to fix) so I write it out on another message board and format it there. But the word gay for some unknown stupid reason is censored on that message board. So the *** is for gay. I noticed that when I posted it and went back and changed the *** to gay.

You really think I would be pimping the word fag? That makes me sad :(

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Oh no. It's gay. Go to the link.

What happened was when I have to format text I can't on here (long story involving computers, the internet and security settings that I can't figure out how to fix) so I write it out on another message board and format it there. But the word gay for some unknown stupid reason is censored on that message board. So the *** is for gay. I noticed that when I posted it and went back and changed the *** to gay.

You really think I would be pimping the word fag? That makes me sad :(

haha..well then I stand corrected. I just read what you put out.

I didnt think you were...but i thought..well what i had thought...aww **** it. im sorry. :(

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What I have to say is that this guy is twisting the text and context of the Bible to support something he doesn't want to give up.

I could go into detail, but suffice it to say that the Bible condemns all pre-marital sex, and defines marriage as between a man and a woman.

So, even if he's right (and he's not), he's wrong.

Ok. So why do we accept that but we don't accept other "laws" in the Bible about other sexual things?

  • DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
  • DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
  • MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
  • LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
  • MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
  • DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

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Ok. So why do we accept that but we don't accept other "laws" in the Bible about other sexual things?

There are three kinds of Old Testament Laws: Civil, Ceremonial, and Moral. Sometimes they overlap.

Civil Law is the Law of Old Testament Israel. It's things like taxes, criminal penalties, etc. It overlaps Moral Law a bit, because sometimes it proscribes a Civil punishment for violation of a Moral Law.

Cermemonial Law is the Laws designed to keep the Jew ceremonially "clean". This includes things like diet, what to do with mold, and the like.

Moral Law are the Laws that talk about right and wrong. This includes most of the Ten Commandments, as well as the underlying actions behind violations of Civil Law.

Now, let's look at how each of these applies to the Christian (I have no idea how orthodox Jews like Dr. Laura reconcile this in their minds):

Civil Law no longer applies to us, because we do not live in the Biblical State of Israel. I'm not going to be sending grain to the Temple.

Ceremonial Law no longer applies to Christians because Jesus was the ultimate Sacrifice that made all things clean.

Moral Law is still in full force.

So, I can walk to Fuddruckers on Saturday and eat a bacon-cheeseburger while wearing a moldy poly-cotton shirt, but I'm not allowed to lie to my wife about it later ("Really, honey... I was exercising. I just went for a walk!"). :)

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MARK 12:18-27

If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

18Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother. 20Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23At the resurrection[a] whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

______________________________________________

a little different then just giving it up to all 7 brothers.

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One of the very few things my lady and I disagree on is homosexuality. We've been together for many many years and we've never been able to agree on this. Our disagreement is refered to our children.

Now a little background...my woman believes very very strongly in the bible and God. Me on the other hand am cool with God and the bible but I don't believe that the books perfect or no mistakes are in it. She does. I've shown her tons of contradictions in it but she's stubborn but raised in a small town that only had a single church to go to for fun does kinda warp what you think. Thankfully she diggs me anyway and we both don't think this difference was enough to not fall for one another and get in our way. I'm cool with God, I just don't think when the book was revised and passages removed in the translation that it remained the perfect thing that some people think it is.

Ok so on to our running arguement...We have some kids together and I've always believed that karma exists and that the things we fear will sometimes come into our lives. So I've asked her a simple but pointed question about our kids

"What would you do if they were homosexual?"

Her answer is a typical one for someone who believes that the bibles perfect...she said she wouldn't approve and wouldn't accept it. To me that's a horrible answer. To me I believe I would be sad about it, but at the same time I'd accept my child and love them regardless. She doesn't think she would do that. To me that's really really sad to hear her say she would stop loving her own child and I think part of her saying that is she's never dealt with it in real life. And another part is her belief that the bible is perfect and it clearly says homosexuality is a sin against God. That part I don't believe at all myself. There's lots of the bible that I think is wrong or outdated. The bible says to stone people to death for certain crimes, should we follow that as well? Why is it ok to not take somethings litterly and somethings you should? Who's making this call and if it needs to be made doesn't that prove the books not perfect? Hmmmm interesting thought, too bad people don't want to talk about that.

She also believes that homosexuality is a choice not something someone's becomes or is born with. I also don't think that, my expirence with homosexuals in my life is some times people choose to act and sometimes no matter how hard people try and escape the way they feel they can't help but be homosexual. I am cool with a straight person, a gay person, and any person really. If they are cool I don't give a damn who they have sex with.

My woman and I have never come to an agreement with this issue and honestly it doesn't matter to either of us. Live and let live

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I'm cool with God, I just don't think when the book was revised and passages removed in the translation that it remained the perfect thing that some people think it is.

You should probably point out to her that the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy only says that the originals are perfect. The idea that the copies are perfect is a little silly.

It's true that scholars have pinned down about 98% of the text of the New Testament, with the other 2% that's uncertain generally trivial and never affecting any doctrine, but it's obvious that the copies aren't perfect.

Just to expound a bit on this, one of the most controversial passages currently, causing all kinds of upheaval, is whether Romans 5:1 says "We have peace" or "Let us have peace".

Not exactly earthshattering, but we can't say that the text we have is perfect.

Of course, in another sense it sounds like she's more right than you are, since that 2% or so doesn't and can't overturn what we're talking about in this thread.

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Ok. So why do we accept that but we don't accept other "laws" in the Bible about other sexual things?

  • DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

This one is so specific that it seems to be tied to a certain incident lol.

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while we're on the subject of the bible, where does Jesus say you can't have multiple wives?

He doesn't. The Bible, in fact, only directly condemns polygamy for Deacons, a fact I occasionally enjoy tormenting my wife with. :D

(Indirectly, of course, the "two shall become one flesh" deal heavily implies monogamy).

And where does Jesus say it's adulterous to have sex with another woman while married?

Dude, Jesus says that if you look at another woman with lust you commited adultery.

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while we're on the subject of the bible, where does Jesus say you can't have multiple wives?

And where does Jesus say it's adulterous to have sex with another woman while married?

where does he say man cant fly or there are no aliens?

where does he say that we should wear lizards as hats?

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interesting that this comes up right after I have a conversation with my older brother, who is a devout southern babtist. He is a deacon/youth paster in his church. My brother and sister in law have never treated me different, never had any issue with me being around my two nieces, who are now 14 and 16. However, they have kept my lil secret from the girls. I always said it was their decision as parents as to when and how the girls would find out.

I probably wouldn't care too much, but my younger neice is my lil minnie me. She looks like me and acts like me in many ways. My brother always joked that it's like raising his lil sister all over again. (bro is 10 yrs older than me).

Well he called the other day to say he was telling the girls "about my lifestyle"...becuase they are coming to visit this summer. I'm nervous, only because at age 9 my youngest niece cried to my mom that she wouldn't go to heaven because my mom doesn't go to church.

Well, I won't try to change anyones mind. Belive what you will. But don't tell me I'm going to hell, that is not up to you to decide. Don't pick and chose what you believe and be careful of being a hypocrite. I'm not calling anyone out, it's a general statement. My brother and I have had sevearl talks in the last 16 years he's known I'm gay. We'll never fully agree, but I'm thankful that he would never say I couldn't be around his kids.

.

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He doesn't. The Bible, in fact, only directly condemns polygamy for Deacons, a fact I occasionally enjoy tormenting my wife with. :D

(Indirectly, of course, the "two shall become one flesh" deal heavily implies monogamy).

Interesting- I always wondered where Mosaic law shifted and why. Women's lobby I guess :D

Dude, Jesus says that if you look at another woman with lust you commited adultery.

He is referring to married women. That is just his metaphorical way of driving his point home :)

If you continue to read the passage though, he specifies that it is ONLY adulterous if you sleep with a MARRIED woman. Or if a MARRIED woman becomes divorced and remarried.

..

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He is referring to married women. That is just his metaphorical way of driving his point home :)

If you continue to read the passage though, he specifies that it is ONLY adulterous if you sleep with a MARRIED woman. Or if a MARRIED woman becomes divorced and remarried.

..

Remember how I was talking earlier about people that ignore the text and context in order to avoid giving something up?

People that try to excuse premarital sex using this kind of logic are doing precisely that.

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You should probably point out to her that the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy only says that the originals are perfect. The idea that the copies are perfect is a little silly.

You missed my point about the "perfection" of the bible.

Shes intellegent and knows that the wording in the bible have changed over the revisions and translations. That's not what we are talking about. One simply has to google for the differences between the King James and the NIV to see lots of missing verses in a translation within the same languages to see that things are left out all the time. But that's not what I'm saying

As far as the "perfect book" question goes she believes that the books perfect in every way. At the same time she's saying that she points to passages and takes some at litteral translation (meaning doing exactly what it says like "Thall Shall Not Kill") and at the same time she glosses over some of the stuff it also says to do "Stone a woman", "Silence a woman", etc and she says that parts of the book are out of date and can't be taken litteraly since they were done back in those days but not today.

The question of perfection to me is raised when you can say take the book litteraly and do what it says because its 100% right and at the same time say don't do what it says because its wrong. If you establish that there are inaccuracys in the word then you can't say its perfect. You could say it was perfect for the day it was written but you are in a sense actually saying its no longer perfect if you think that it doesn't fit in with today's way of thinking. And since were not taking everything litterally that's in the bible who's to say that homosexuality is not one of those things that changed with age and shouldn't be ignored as well?

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Remember how I was talking earlier about people that ignore the text and context in order to avoid giving something up?

People that try to excuse premarital sex using this kind of logic are doing precisely that.

No I don't remember- but what specifically am I ignoring?

Serious question. The reason I ask, a friend of mine (coworker actually, not so much a friend), married, 2 kids, is currently having an affair.

He is also a devout Methodist. He tells me openly about it, with the understanding I won't tell his wife of course. Because she wouldn't understand.

.....

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That is totally true. Any person that has called upon Jesus will be saved. There's no "except gays" exclusionary clause, and everybody has areas of sin he or she struggles with.

How do you know? Have you been to Saint Peter's gates and asked him the qualifications? I'm not saying gays are damned or saved one way or the other because I don't know. But the thing is, nobody knows who is going to Heaven or Hell and why.

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And where does Jesus say it's adulterous to have sex with another woman while married?

Exodus 20:14

"Thou shall not committ adultry"

However during the time the bible was written this rule only applied to a married woman having sex with another man, not that the man couldn't do it with another woman. At the time men who had sex with another man's woman were condemded but as long as a married man was having intercourse with a non married woman it was not considered adultry.

To answer the question, it doesn't. Society changed the meaning of adultry to include men many hundreds of years later and this is the passage that is most refered to when talking about the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery

The Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh or Christian Old Testament) prohibits adultery in the seventh of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14). It should be noted though that during biblical times marriage was seen as a property transaction and the definition of adultery was quite narrow. During biblical times adultery was defined as a married woman having sex with someone other than her husband. The defintion did not, however, forbid a married man from having sex with a woman other than his wife provided she was was not married to someone else. [18] Today adultery is defined by culture and law which defines it as having sex outside of the marriage without the others knowledge or consent.[19]

Deuteronomy 22:24 defines adultery as sexual relations between a married woman and a man other than her husband. Both are guilty (unless the woman has cried out), if she has not, the penalty is death:

you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.[20] As you can see, they are both to be put to death. Unless the woman has cried out for help. A consequence is that, under biblical law, sexual relations by an unmarried woman does not lead to adultery, whether the man is married or not.

These provisions are consistent with the provisions covering the practice of polygyny. It also fits with the prohibition of polyandry, as a woman cannot be married to more than one man without committing adultery. It has been suggested that the reasoning of these rules is to ensure that a child's paternity is always known, and not in doubt.

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