Obama's war on terror = Bush's?

[Mad Mike]

...speaking of uneducated, more Iraqis died as a result of our invasion than would have died otherwise. Sorry to burst your uneducated Republican bubble, Cletus.

From MIT:

http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/reports/lancet04.pdf

Johns Hopkins:

http://www.jhsph.edu/refugee/publications_tools/iraq/Human_Cost_of_WarFORMATTED.pdf

Uhhh thanks for two links to the same article. Did you even read it?

Their sample is from a year before the invasion. A relatively calm time for Iraq. It does NOT count the deaths from all of the wars started by Saddam. It does NOT count Saddam's gassing his own people or any of the other atrocities he was guilty of. Nor does it count the millions upon millions of people who will have a better life in the generations ahead who would have otherwise been living under Saddam or his sons.

Stop the insanity. Stop pretending that the Iraqi people are not better off now than before the invasion. It's a lie.

[HighOnHendrix]

You don't remember well because he said get out of Iraq, and send more troops to Afghanistan.

*shrug* I don't pay as much attention to what politicians say due to their propensity for lying, distortion, obfuscation, 'spin', misinformation, two-facery, and just generally being douche-bags.

[Mad Mike]

Nope. The majority of my beef has to do with getting 4200 Americans killed in an unnecessary war based on fallse pretences that had little or nothing to do with our attackers.

Iraqi Perspectives Project. Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi

Documents. Volume 1 (Redacted)

Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

http://a.abcnews.com/images/pdf/Pentagon_Report_V1.pdf

INSTITUTE FOR DEFENSE ANALYSES

Joint Advanced Warfighting Program

Kevin M. Woods, Project Leader

with James Lacey

The Iraqi Perspectives Project. In September 2003 the Commander,

United States Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM), asked the Joint Advanced

Warfighting Program (JAWP) at the Institute for Defense Analyses (IDA)

to help develop the operational and strategic lessons from OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

(OIF) from the perspectives of former senior Iraqi decision-makers. By creating

a historical narrative of the events surrounding OIF, interviewing captured

prisoners, and reviewing translations of enemy documents and media archives,

IDA researchers were able to report on the inner workings-and sometimes delusional

behavior en masse-of the Saddam Hussein regime.

For this paper, the JAWP Iraqi Perspectives Project (IPP) research

team screened more than 600,000 original captured documents I and several thousand

hours of audio and video footage archived in a US Department of Defense

(DOD) database called Harmony.

Abstract

Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist, and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously, operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely. Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some ways, a “de facto” link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the

collapse of the regime.

_______________________________

Quotes....

_______________________________

Iraq was a long-standing supporter of international terrorism. The existence

of a memorandum (Extract 10) from the lIS to Saddam, written a decade

before OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, provides detailed evidence of that support.

Several of the organizations listed in this memorandum were designated as international

terrorist organizations by the US Department of State. 31

We list herein the organizations that our agency [iIS] cooperates with and

have relations with various elements in many parts of the Arab world and

who also have the expertise to carry out assignments indicated in the above

directive [the cited directive has not been discovered yet].

Fatah - Revolutionary Council (Abu-Nidal's Organization)

Established in 1973 after a split with the Fatah organization. [LJed by Sabri

al-Bana who used to be head of the Fatah office in Baghdad. The organization's

political beliefs are based on violence and assassinations. We

have been in contact with the organization since 1973 and have provided

financial and logistical support, such as vehicles. They have members in

many Arab countries, but we did not assign them any operations in the war

[1991] despite their willingness to assist.

Palestine Liberation Front

Established in 1983 by Abu aI-Abbas. Currently has an office in Baghdad.

They were assigned and carried out commando operations for us against

American interests in the [1991] war.

Force 17

Security agency specializing in operations inside the occupied territories

(Palestine). We have good relations with them and they maintain an office

in Baghdad. They were not assigned to conduct any commando operations

during the war; nevertheless, they were assigned to collect intelligence

information and they provided valuable information.

Renewal and Jihad Organization

Secret Islamic Palestinian Organization established after the war. It believes

in armed jihad against the Americans and Western interests. They

also believe our leader [saddam Hussein], may God protect him, is the true

leader in the war against the infidels. The organization's leaders live in

Jordan... when they visited Iraq two months ago they demonstrated a willingness

to carry out operations against American interests at any time.

The Palestinian Abd al-Bari al-Duwaik (aka Abu Dawoud)

Was a representative of the Popular Front organization-abroad operations.

He currently lives in Cyprus, and he was assigned to carry out a number of commando operations during the [1991] war which he did. Our relationship with him is outstanding and we can benefit by him carrying out operations for us.

Islamic Jihad Organization [Egyptian Islamic Jihad]

In a meeting in the Sudan we agreed to renew our relations with the Islamic

Jihad Organization in Egypt. Our information on the group is as follows:

It was established in 1979. Its goal is to apply the Islamic shari' a law and establish Islamic rule. It is considered one of the most brutal Egyptian organizations. It carried out numerous successful operations, including the assassination of Sadat. We have previously met with the organization's representative and we agreed on a plan to carry out commando operations against the Egyptian regime.

(My Note: Ayman al-Zawahiri is a prominent leader of al-Qaeda, and was the second and last "emir" of Egyptian Islamic Jihad. In 1998 al-Zawahiri formally merged Egyptian Islamic Jihad into al-Qaeda. According to reports by a former al-Qaeda member, he has worked in the al-Qaeda organization since its inception and was a senior member of the group's shura council. He is often described as a "lieutenant" to Osama bin Laden, though bin Laden's chosen biographer has referred to him as the "real brains" of al-Qaeda.)

Islamic Ulama Group - Islamic Scholars Group

It was established in 1948 and is very influential in large areas of Pakistan,

especially in the northern districts. They rely on financial support from

Iraq and Libya. The party is led by Ahmad Nu'mani. He has strong relations

with our agency since 1981 and is ready to carry out any assignment

we task him with.

The Afghani Islamic Party

It was founded in 1974 when its leader [Gulbuddin Hekmatyar] escaped

from Afghanistan to Pakistan. It is considered one of the extreme political

religious movements against the West, and one of the strongest Sunni parties

in Afghanistan. The organization relies on financial support from Iraq

and we have had good relations with Hikmatyar since 1989

Jam'iyat Ulama Pakistan - Pakistan Scholars Group

Established in 1970, its goals are religious and political reform. It is well

known in Pakistan and well into India. The organization maintains offices

in England and Holland. Our agency has had relations with them since 1987. They were not tasked with commando operations during the war, but were tasked to undertake protest demonstrations against American aggression in several countries. They did undertake activities for this purpose. 32

_______________________________

Captured Iraqi archives reveal that Saddam was training Arab fighters (non-Iraqi) in Iraqi training camps more than a decade prior to OPERATION DESERT STORM (1991). A Saddam memorandum directed the IIS to submit a list of foreign nationals who were trained in Iraq and carried out operations during the 1991 war against the United States. 33 In response, the IIS sent a list of one-hundred names of foreign national fighters, categorized by country

-----------------------------------

Two other memoranda in this folder are from Saddam through his Presidential Secretary to a member of the Revolutionary Council and to the IIS Director, respectively.

• In the first, from January 1993, and coinciding with the start of the US humanitarian intervention in Somalia, the Presidential Secretary informed the council member of Saddam's decision to "form a group to

start hunting Americans present on Arab soil; especially Somalia."

• In the second memorandum, Saddam orders the IIS Director to revise a

plan the IIS director had previously forwarded to include setting up

operations inside Somalia.44 The overlap between bin Laden's and

Saddam's interests in Somalia provides a tactical example of the parallel

between Iraq and radical Islam: at the same time Saddam was ordering action in Somalia aimed at the American presence, Osama bin Laden was doing the same thing.

___________________________

Iraq and Iran were not the only states that wanted to use Palestinian

terrorist organizations for their own purposes. For Saddam, these groups were often the means toward a common end and a tool to influence or manipulate an ally. One such example was a Palestinian Liberation Front leader, Abu aI-Abbas who

lived in Iraq under Saddam's protection. He originally fled to Iraq to avoid an Italian

warrant imposing five life terms for his part in the 1985 hijacking of the Italian

cruise liner Achille Lauro and the murder of an American citizen. 66 Abu alAbbas

was captured later by US forces as they entered Baghdad in April 2003. 67

While in Iraq, Abbas often traveled to Gaza and reported back to

Saddam on the conditions of the Palestinians and the various terrorist organizations there. In one note, he asks for Saddam's help in developing methods for the Palestinians to infiltrate Israeli military and security operations in order to "analyze the weak points in the enemy structure so as to select potential targets and our future hits.,,7

__________________________

Other documents show Saddam's terror organizations could be

deadly. They were willing to target not only Western interests but also to directly

attack Americans. Uday Hussein reports to his father the results of one such terrorist strike that specifically targeted American aid workers with the UN

_________________________

When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel

came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the

regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al

Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's longterm vision. A directive (Extract 24) from the Director for International Intelligence in the IIS to an Iraqi operative in Bahrain orders him to investigate a particular terrorist group there, The Army of Muhammad.

"[July 2001]

We have learned of a group calling themselves The Army ofMuhammad... has

threatened Kuwaiti authorities and plans to attack American and Western interests ...We need detailed information about this group, their activities, their objectives, and their most distinguished leaders. We need to know [to] whom

they belong to and with whom they are connected. Give this subject your ut-

. 82 most attentIon."

"Information available to us is that the group is under the wings of bin

Laden. They receive their directions from Yemen. Their objectives are the

. 83 same as bIll Laden..."

A later note84 lists the group's objectives, among them:

• Jihad in the name of God.

• Striking the embassies and other Jewish and American interests anywhere in the world.

• Attacking the American and British military bases in the Arab land.

• Striking American embassies and interests unless the Americans pull out their forces from the Arab lands and discontinue their support for Israel.

• Disrupting oil exports [to] the Americans from Arab countries and

threatening tankers carrying oil to them.

A later memorandum from the same collection85 to the Director of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established. The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that "this organization is an offshoot of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can be a way of camouflaging the organization."

_____________________________

And while we are at it, let's stop pretending Iraq did not represent a terrorist threat to America.

[HighOnHendrix]

And while we are at it, let's stop pretending Iraq did not represent a terrorist threat to America.

Ok, but were they at the top of such a list? IMO, Iran posed, and continues to pose, more of a threat than Iraq.

[Koolblue13]

Ok, but were they at the top of such a list? IMO, Iran posed, and continues to pose, more of a threat than Iraq.

Is it easier to attack Iran or the old Iraq?

Is Iran stronger with Iraq still being around?

Do the two countries have one common hated enemy?

Are we picking out the smaller targets first?

Do you think that might be smart, considering the weapon capabilities of these other countries?

[mjah]

And this is a result of falling education standards in this country! Too many pot smoking hippies grew up thinking that "war is bad man" and that one lost american life means the war was unjustified. Yes, it is sad that american lives were lost but how many lives were saved in the process of stabilizing a nation run by a brutal dictator that harbors terrorist who have no other life goal than to kill themselves and take as many people as possible with them? The entire world should be outraged that these terrorist groups are allowed to exist and operate and that there are leaders that are killing their own people but no they would rather "talk it out" then step in and take action.

Your diatribe about "pot smoking hippies" immediately disqualifies you as any kind of reliable narrator, but I have some thoughts for you anyway.

First of all, Americans overwhelmingly supported the Afghanistan War and continue to support it. All those "pot smoking hippies" you talk about who oppose war no matter why it's waged? Yeah. As far as large segments of the population go, they don't exist or else they would be opposing the Afghanistan War in massive numbers too. So where are they? Nice try, though.

The American public views the Iraq War as a mistake, but not the Afghanistan War. Obviously they see that the Iraq War is missing something the Afghanistan War has. Something like, oh, I dunno... legitimate motive? Justification? Does anyone honestly think Iraq was the next biggest threat to the US after al Qaeda's presence in Afghanistan? What a joke.

If you took MadMike's document and focused it on Iran instead, it would instantly quadruple in length and look FAR more dire. The same would be true of other Middle Eastern nations. In a world full of threats to us, Iraq was not a big fish.

Iraq: Failure of assessment, failure of motive, failure of communication, failure of planning, failure of execution, failure of fiscal responsibility. The possibility that the war will result in any multi-generation success is solely due to the skill of our Armed Forces on the ground and our willingness to spend trillions of dollars we don't have... in some other country.

But some people still think it was a good idea. I guess they're experiencing a sympathetic failure of logic.

[PleaseBlitz]

So everyone should be happy. Obama is carrying Bush's torch, so the republicans should be happy about that, and Obama is still Obama, so the Dems are still in full swoon.

Huzzah!

[mjah]

So everyone should be happy. Obama is carrying Bush's torch, so the republicans should be happy about that, and Obama is still Obama, so the Dems are still in full swoon.

Huzzah!

Have you considered a career in mediation?

[Prosperity]

If we invade Iran then you can compare him to Bush

[HighOnHendrix]

If we invade Iran then you can compare him to Bush

When do we start?

[Prosperity]

When do we start?

we won't

[Midnight Judges]

Uhhh thanks for two links to the same article. Did you even read it?

Wrong. They are two distinctly different studies, by two dustinctly different groups of scholars at two distinctly different times. I've read them. You should too.

Their sample is from a year before the invasion. A relatively calm time for Iraq. It does NOT count the deaths from all of the wars started by Saddam. It does NOT count Saddam's gassing his own people or any of the other atrocities he was guilty of. Nor does it count the millions upon millions of people who will have a better life in the generations ahead who would have otherwise been living under Saddam or his sons.

That is the most applicable period to compare to post invasion statistics.

Stop the insanity. Stop pretending that the Iraqi people are not better off now than before the invasion. It's a lie

You're just plain wrong. Turning Iraq into our own personal battlefield against our enemies was not good for the Iraqi people. I posted two different studies that prove me correct. You posted an irrelevant article talking about 1993.

[HighOnHendrix]

we won't

I know.

[Mad Mike]

Wrong. They are two distinctly different studies, by two dustinctly different groups of scholars at two distinctly different times. I've read them. You should too.

That is the most applicable period to compare to post invasion statistics.

You're just plain wrong. Turning Iraq into our own personal battlefield against our enemies was not good for the Iraqi people. I posted two different studies that prove me correct. You posted an irrelevant article talking about 1993.

Bull. One year pre invasion ignoring all the years of warfare, torture, murder and genocide that came before is NOT the most applicable time period. It s only the most applicable time period if you want to pretend that Saddam was not responsible for the deaths of millions that you do not want to count in order to make a case that is false.

You want to take a tiney simple minded short view of Iraq and ignore tho horrors that came before and the horrors that would have continued for generations. ITS A LIE.

And I didn't post from an article. I My second post was from a US study of Iraqi documents that show proof positive, Iraq's roll as a sponsor of terrorism. Something you still don't seem to get. We have Iraqi documents ordering terrorists to target Americans. We have Iraqi documents that show they were trying to hide any connection to al Qaeda.

The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that "this organization is an offshoot of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can be a way of camouflaging the organization."

[Midnight Judges]

Bull. One year pre invasion ignoring all the years of warfare, torture, murder and genocide that came before is NOT the most applicable time period. It s only the most applicable time period if you want to pretend that Saddam was not responsible for the deaths of millions that you do not want to count in order to make a case that is false.

Millions? Not to diminish Saddam as a mass murderer-he was. But the deaths caused by him are not in the "millions."

You want to take a tiney simple minded short view of Iraq and ignore tho horrors that came before and the horrors that would have continued for generations. ITS A LIE.

It's the most recent and accurate representation of pre-war Iraq. But even if we take the average death count per year over Saddam's entire regime, worst case scenario, Iraqis were still better off before we invaded.

And I didn't post from an article. I My second post was from a US study of Iraqi documents that show proof positive, Iraq's roll as a sponsor of terrorism. Something you still don't seem to get. We have Iraqi documents ordering terrorists to target Americans. We have Iraqi documents that show they were trying to hide any connection to al Qaeda

In 1993. Nobody is disputing that. But in more recent times, Iraq was completely and successfully contained and disarmed of all WMDs by the United Nations.

I have no doubt that you will reply with an incredibly long irrelevant article that in no way validates your point.

[twa]

Millions? Not to diminish Saddam as a mass murderer-he was. But the deaths caused by him are not in the "millions."

Others disagree....but what do they know?

If you credit W with Iraqi lives lost ,then we must credit Saddam with Iranian and Iraqi lives lost in his wars.

Hell we could even credit him the ones lost in our invasions SINCE the UN inspectors said he could have cleared up any issues about WMD's if he wished.

http://www.brookesnews.com/062407iraqgraves.html

Official Iraqi documents recovered after the fall of Saddam regime suggest a staggering 5 million executions were made during Baath era alone. Over 10 million were also imprisoned. They were all Shias save a small percentage of Kurds. It is also very interesting to note that after the 1991 Shia uprising over 300,000 were killed or captured never to be seen again, but there were no injured.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1265189.ece

“Oh, God, you know what Saddam has done! He killed millions of Iraqis in prisons, in wars with neighbouring countries and he is responsible for mass graves. Oh God, we ask you to take revenge on Saddam,” said Sheikh Sadralddin al-Qubanji, a member of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336894548.html

Internal repression 1979-2003. Anyone suspected of opposing Saddam risked imprisonment, torture and death. Amnesty International reported last year that Iraq's prisons were among the world's worst and arbitrary killings were common. A "prison cleansing" campaign claimed 3000 lives in 1997 alone. The UN calculates that about 300,000 Iraqis disappeared during Saddam's rule. The death toll from Saddam's era probably approached the 2 million people killed by Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia in 1975-79.

It certainly exceeded the 800,000 who died in the Rwandan genocide of 1994.

[Mad Mike]

BTW MJ...

New study says Iraqi death toll significantly lower

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13164-new-study-says-iraqi-death-toll-significantly-lower.html

The researchers estimate that the number of violent deaths in Iraq between the US-led invasion of March 2003 and the end of June 2006 to be between 104,000 and 223,000.

This loss of life is described as "massive", but is well below the figure of 600,000 violent deaths claimed by a team of Iraqi and US scientists in autumn 2006

[Midnight Judges]

Others disagree....but what do they know?

If you credit W with Iraqi lives lost ,then we must credit Saddam with Iranian and Iraqi lives lost in his wars.

Hell we could even credit him the ones lost in our invasions SINCE the UN inspectors said he could have cleared up any issues about WMD's if he wished.

Your sources are not very good. And your logic about Saddam being able to avoid the 2003 invasion is completely absurd. Iraq was complying with the weapons inspections in 2002 to early 2003. Bush had his mind made up before 9/11. If Bush really wanted to know the truth he would have sent the inspectors to the cites they used to prove the WMD allegations to him.

But I was wrong about the millions thing. I think the sanctions imposed on Iraq during the 90s were Saddam's fault, and that caused an estimated 500,000 to 1 million deaths.

But even then, we're talking 1-2 million in 25 years worst case scenario. Which is a hell of a lot. Absolutely horrible. I can't imagine. But after 3.5 years of war, worst case scenario is 655,000 dead (that particular study came out in 2006). It's really not even close, especially when we compare it to the contained Saddam who had little control over large portions of his own country, zero WMDs, and absolutely no power to wage war against anyone.

[Bang]

Iraq was complying with the weapons inspections in 2002 to early 2003.

I just need to pick at this point. Iraq played a big game of hide and seek. The inspectors got thrown out of Iraq almost every week as I recall. Seems that they'd get close to something, and they'd get the boot, only to be invited back a few days later to inspect the site that was now spic and span.

Fishy to say the least.

~Bang

[Midnight Judges]

I just need to pick at this point. Iraq played a big game of hide and seek. The inspectors got thrown out of Iraq almost every week as I recall. Seems that they'd get close to something, and they'd get the boot, only to be invited back a few days later to inspect the site that was now spic and span.

Fishy to say the least.

~Bang

I think you may be mistaking the 1998 round of inspections with the 2002-2003 round of inspections.

In 2002 they did cooperate, at least according to Hans Blix in his book, Disarming Iraq.

2002:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_disarmament_crisis

1998:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

[twa]

Funny that Hans Blix is my source for Saddam could have cleared up WMD issues easily if he wished.

Blix obviously disagrees that Saddam cooperated or fully complied.

[Mad Mike]

But even then, we're talking 1-2 million in 25 years worst case scenario. Which is a hell of a lot. Absolutely horrible. I can't imagine. But after 3.5 years of war, worst case scenario is 655,000 dead (that particular study came out in 2006). It's really not even close, especially when we compare it to the contained Saddam who had little control over large portions of his own country, zero WMDs, and absolutely no power to wage war against anyone.

I'm sorry, did history stop 3.5 years after the war? What about the future generations that would have had to live under Saddam's rule? What about the progress right now?

I want you to look me in the virtual eye and tell me that the people of Iraq are better off under Saddam than now. Seriously. Think about this. If it was you and those were your choices. What would you chose?

Saddam had, and USED the power to send terrorists out to kill americans. He did it numerous times. He sent terrorist to Somalia exactly as bin Laden did. When he wasn't paying and training terrorists for future attacks he was rewarding them for their past ones. Four of the top most wanted terrorists before bin Laden were all living in Iraq, sometimes acting as consultants and intermediaries to other terrorists for Saddam. He was also keeping all of his WMD research and scientists around with plans to restart his programs once sanctions were dropped. How was he going to get the sanctions dropped? Bribes in the form of oil vouchers to officials in.... drum roll please.... France, Germany, and Russia.... the same three that vetoed the security council vote and apposed the war. What a coincidence.

Yeah, the future for mankind with Saddam in power would have been much better than a future without him.

[Midnight Judges]

Funny that Hans Blix is my source for Saddam could have cleared up WMD issues easily if he wished.

Blix obviously disagrees that Saddam cooperated or fully complied.

Get back to me after you read his book. Seriously. You don't know what you are talking about. $10. Very quick read.

http://www.amazon.com/Disarming-Iraq-Hans-Blix/dp/0375423028

[twa]

Get back to me after you read his book. Seriously. You don't know what you are talking about. $10. Very quick read.

http://www.amazon.com/Disarming-Iraq-Hans-Blix/dp/0375423028

Why read a book when I read his testimony...or was he lying?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/blix-i-need-months-to-search-for-saddams-weapons-601396.html

UN weapons inspectors said today that they need months to search for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, but getting that time may depend on whether Saddam provides new evidence about nuclear, chemical and biological programmes.

Chief UN inspector Hans Blix said Iraq must answer outstanding questions about its weapons programs or may face the possibility of war.

..

Mr Blix and Mr ElBaradei said that although Iraq has cooperated in providing access to sites, it had not provided the information inspectors need to verify its claim that it has no banned weapons and long-range missiles to deliver them.

"There are a great many open questions as to their possession of weapons of mass destruction and the Security Council and the world would like to be assured that these questions be sorted out," Mr Blix said. How long this takes "depends entirely on how cooperative the Iraqis are.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/02/26/inspectors/index.html

U.N. inspector to Saddam: Stop playing games

As weapons inspectors in Baghdad grow increasingly frustrated at Iraq's "piecemeal approach," even some Iraqis ask why their government doesn't simply come clean.

You seem to forget it was Iraq's OBLIGATION to account for the WMD issues,the inspections were to verify facts.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20030224&slug=blix24

The magazine said Blix seemed in the interview to be more skeptical of the actions of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and his regime than many people around the world had thought.

"They have no credibility," Blix said. "I don't see that they have acquired any credibility" since their false statements in the 1990s claiming to have no weapons-of-mass-destruction programs, he said.

"There has to be solid evidence of everything" that the Iraqis claim, Blix said of the inspection process. "If there is not evidence, or you can't find it, I simply say, 'Sorry, I don't find any evidence, and I cannot guarantee or recommend any confidence.' "

Blix said it was "a bit odd" that a regime as fastidious about record keeping as Iraq's is saying it cannot produce documents showing it has destroyed stocks of anthrax and other toxic compounds.

"They've been one of the best-organized regimes in the Arab world," he said. "But then, if they destroyed their documents with that efficiency, there might be relatively little left."

An ultimatum for Iraq to cooperate by a given date might be needed, he said.

[Midnight Judges]

..

Mr Blix and Mr ElBaradei said that although Iraq has cooperated in providing access to sites, it had not provided the information inspectors need to verify its claim that it has no banned weapons and long-range missiles to deliver them.

Thank you for proving my point.