Hubbs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 That certainly happens when the history is being written by people who ideologically oppose stimulus plans.Like revisionists who try to claim that FDR prolonged the Great Depression. :whoknows: Surely they couldn't be correct. After all, we escaped the Great Depression long before World War II hit, decimating every other industrial power on earth while our own production remained unscathed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 They're the minority right now, though - too many economists are diehard Keynesians. It's growing. I dare Predicto to call someone like Tyler Cowen a hack. The truth is the empirical evidence is not on his side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCollins Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Republicans appear to be still saying that we should focus on lowering taxes with the stimulus instead of investing it into building and fixing things. Is anybody buying into this? Is this really a surprise? If a republican was standing on the deck of the titanic, while it was sinking, they'd be trying to negotiate a refund instead of getting in the life boat. :doh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Turn on the logic switch real quick. You just made an argument for ever-increasing government spending. You want to try to mock me about logical fallacies? I'm not mocking you I'm taking your position out of the ideal realm of the mind and applying it to reality. I notice you didn't answer the question. Also I don't believe in ever increasing government spending. What I am suggesting is that an icrease in spending in the face of a downturn is a good thing. I'm not supporting FDR's other positions that get thrown into these types of arguments. Only that as the economy slows an infusion of money in terms of fat contracts and government expansion has a good SHORT TERM effect. Recently we saw american banking on the brink of collapse. In the perfect ideal world where for some reason there is importance in being faithful to economic concepts I can see why a bailout would be viewed poorly. In the real world however a collapse of the financial sector would impact many lives and I doubt they'd take comfort in the notion that it was allowed to happen because we SHOULDN'T bail anyone out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 It's growing. I dare Predicto to call someone like Tyler Cowen a hack. The truth is the empirical evidence is not on his side. I've noticed that we are talking FDR and not specifics. What does the current stimulus package have in common with FDR's belief that excessive competition was a bad thing? Are we supposed to just lump all government spending into the same boat and ignore the details? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 It's growing. I dare Predicto to call someone like Tyler Cowen a hack. The truth is the empirical evidence is not on his side. I would never call him a hack. I would say that he is in the minority. Are you calling Paul Krugman a hack? :whoknows: I guess my point is that you and Hubbs are acting as though certain facts and theories have been indisputably resolved in your favor because some experts (the ones you like) agree with you. Kind of reminds me of the global climate change deniers, the ones who cite the same 8 scientists to disprove the 1000 scientists on the other side. Because that is "their side, dammit!" Actually, that's a cheap shot, because I do not think that the global climate change deniers care what the truth is, while I am sure that you and Hubbs do. But the fact is that many of the things you claim to be Indisputable Truth are, in fact, very disputable and even a minority view among people who do their best to understand these issues at the highest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I've noticed that we are talking FDR and not specifics. What does the current stimulus package have in common with FDR's belief that excessive competition was a bad thing? Are we supposed to just lump all government spending into the same boat and ignore the details? Fair point about the New Deal. I am talking about in general when it comes to government stimulus plans, particularly when it comes to focusing on infrastructure spending. A concept that was mocked only a decade ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I would never call him a hack. I would say that he is in the minority.Are you calling Paul Krugman a hack? :whoknows: I guess my point is that you and Hubbs are acting as though certain facts and theories have been indisputably resolved in your favor because some experts (the ones you like) agree with you. Kind of reminds me of the global climate change deniers, the ones who cite the same 8 scientists to disprove the 1000 scientists on the other side. Because that is "their side, dammit!" Actually, that's a cheap shot, because I do not think that the global climate change deniers care what the truth is, while I am sure that you and Hubbs do. But the fact is that many of the things you claim to be Indisputable Truth are, in fact, very disputable and even a minority view among people who do their best to understand these issues at the highest level. So you still trust what you learned at UofC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hailskinz1991 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 It would be a mistake to think of "free market" as a solution in itself. In order for us to enjoy fruits of the free market, the free market has to be properly regulated and it needs to have proper infrastructure to operate on. Electric grid, highway system, etc. Regulations just slow down the ability of the free market to work. In some cases like the housing market crisis, the regulations surrounding forcing banks to lend created a false equilibrium (on steroids) the demand for housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I share your opinion about the economists community right now, but it is important to note that a lot of economists ( the amount who are is growing) are pushing back against the stimulus package right now. Some heavy hitters. This made me CRACK UP!!!! Let me summarize - economists are always wrong and their opinion shouldn't matter - expect the ones who agree with me. And those are the ones that are very smart.... LOL!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Is this really a surprise? If a republican was standing on the deck of the titanic, while it was sinking, they'd be trying to negotiate a refund instead of getting in the life boat. :doh: :laugh:OR, they could get in the life boat and realize that the lifeboat wasn't built proportionally and as soon as it gets close to being full will sink faster than the sinking boat they abandoned. All this BS about taxes, and clamoring to be more like Europe. Look at Europe!!! They are in as bad, if not worse, shape we are in. Unemployment in France was 8.3% (2007), 7.6% in Germany (2008), 6.1% in Britain (2008). The US hit 7.2% in Jan 2009. When these European countries announce their new rates, what are the chances they go down? Most likely, they go up. And they have way higher taxes. The French economy is stagnant. Why do we want to be more like them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I buy into it. 1000 percent. Name one time where the government has done anything better than the private market? Why do you think the government knows how to spend money better than the american consumer? -Medicare vs Health Insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 -Medicare vs Health InsuranceReally? You want to bring nationalized healthcare up? How many BILLIONS in Medicare fraud was there last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I would never call him a hack. I would say that he is in the minority.Are you calling Paul Krugman a hack? :whoknows: I guess my point is that you and Hubbs are acting as though certain facts and theories have been indisputably resolved in your favor because some experts (the ones you like) agree with you. I have no problem calling krugman a hack. He is capable of being a good economist when he wants too. Yes, I think the evidence is pretty clear. By the way, I believe Keynesists have a lot of useful things to say, particularly post-Keynesists. However, Krugman is pushing the strict version of it, the left-wing version of voodoo economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Really? You want to bring nationalized healthcare up? How many BILLIONS in Medicare fraud was there last year? Nope -I didn't say I want nationalized health care. In fact, I like my policy. But Medicare is run better then the avg health insurance. Its FAR from perfect, just like private medical care is FAR from perfect.... But he said name 1 thing done better. Medicare is run better then most private health insurances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Nope -I didn't say I want nationalized health care. In fact, I like my policy. But Medicare is run better then the avg health insurance. Its FAR from perfect, just like private medical care is FAR from perfect.... But he said name 1 thing done better. Medicare is run better then most private health insurances. In North Carolina alone in 2008, there were some $52M in Medicaid fraud. That is only Medicaid, mind you, for 1 year in 1 state. Extrapolate those numbers for the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Jam Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Something needs to be done.. the post office can't even deliver mail six days a week anymore.. http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=9748327 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmacop Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 People are missing the macroeconomics of this problem. To get out of this recession (depression?), demand for goods and services need to increase. There are three sources of demand -- business, consumers and government. The first two are cutting back on spending and outlays, so the government has to step in. Government spending is absolutely required to turn this economy around. The lesson from when Japan went through this same problem in the 1990s is that government stimulus is required. In their case, they spent too much on tax cuts, and didn't sustain the spending for long enough (they cut back spending after only two years) I wrote about this in detail in another thread: http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=6076480#post6076480 http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=6076556#post6076556 http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=6076585#post6076585 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMK9973 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 In North Carolina alone in 2008, there were some $52M in Medicaid fraud. That is only Medicaid, mind you, for 1 year in 1 state. Extrapolate those numbers for the country. Perfection is not the enemy of good. Again - Medicare is BETTER run that private health insurance. Not perfect. Private health insurance's estimate 83 billion in Medical fraud every year...... Looking for the link. Although this is WAY off topic. I don't think Medicare is perfect or without problems. However, it is a dumb argument to say Government can't do anything better. Security, safety, infrastructure, etc.... Government is not perfect, but they do some good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Medicare certainly has lower overhead. Insurance fraud happens with private companies too. We just make a bigger deal if it's the gov getting messed with. Krugman = hack in some people's mind = Nobel Prize winner for Economic last year...Luckydevil, I usually like your economics, but I think that calling Krugman a hack (at least in the same year he wins the Nobel prize) may be showing more of your bias. Other things we need gov for...air trafic control anyone? OK, I cheated and took that one from Krugman's article this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Medicare certainly has lower overhead. Insurance fraud happens with private companies too. We just make a bigger deal if it's the gov getting messed with.Krugman = hack in some people's mind = Nobel Prize winner for Economic last year...Luckydevil, I usually like your economics, but I think that calling Krugman a hack (at least in the same year he wins the Nobel prize) may be showing more of your bias. Well of course, I am biased. I just also happen to read his columns. He personalizes things, fudges with numbers, and every once in a while lies. Oh and Krugman didn't win his nobel for his macro views, but for his research on trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hailskinz1991 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 My question is what is going to help you more right now, the government painting a bridge or sandblasting a building? Or putting a couple of Ben Franklins in your bank account? Of course the answer is the latter, and collectively putting Ben Franklins back in everyone's wallet's is better. KEEP IT REAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmacop Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 My question is what is going to help you more right now, the government painting a bridge or sandblasting a building? Or putting a couple of Ben Franklins in your bank account? Of course the answer is the latter, and collectively putting Ben Franklins back in everyone's wallet's is better. KEEP IT REAL Most economists would say the government paying real Americans to work on our infrastructure is better for the economy than tax cuts. That person "painting a bridge" -- or better yet improving our roads, building a better electricity grid or building and installing wind turbines -- is a real person earning a real salary who will pay taxes back to the government and will spend his earning on goods and services, starting a mulitplier effect. As was shown from the last tax rebate, most people in a recession will pocket the money or pay off debts, which does absolutely nothing to help us get out of a recession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hailskinz1991 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 -Medicare vs Health Insurance Your joking right? You have to be freaking joking??? Why on earth would Medicare be better than Private Heath Insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 My question is what is going to help you more right now, the government painting a bridge or sandblasting a building? Or putting a couple of Ben Franklins in your bank account? Of course the answer is the latter, and collectively putting Ben Franklins back in everyone's wallet's is better. KEEP IT REAL Let's be a little more real. What will help you more? The government repairing a bridge that might collapse (remember the infrastructure studies showing how many bridges were seriously in need and overdue for repair or putting a few hundred Benjamins in your pocket? Remember, unless you are Egyption you can't take it with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.